Gas-free boat … any good for Constant Cruising

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

 And ask how he continually cruised on a boat which seams unsuitable for the purpose.

 

That's my point.

 

He/she probably gave up trying to CC it and decided to flog it instead. 

 

 

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

12 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

That's my point.

 

He/she probably gave up trying to CC it and decided to flog it instead. 

 

 

 Hopefully the OP will take in everyones replies and walk away as everyone who knows boats would walk away unless it’s ridiculously cheap, but then they ask about costings for full gas fit, multifuel fire. They need to go and view some boats as there’s a lot for sale and prices seam to have stalled and maybe dropping?

[blackrose]

4 hours ago, Didne said:

… and yet it was described as a constant cruiser … is this really possible to live comfortably on a boat like that without being tied to a pontoon ? 

 

It's a fair question, but it's actually the people onboard the boat who sign the licence agreement to abide by the "rules" for continuous cruising who may be described as continuous cruisers rather than the boat itself. However, as you're discovering boats may or may not be suitable for continuous cruising depending on the setup.

 

For CCing you really want gas in my opinion, but I'd avoid trying to rectify someone else's mistake on this boat by retrofitting it especially if there is no suitable gas locker. There are so many boats on the market with LPG systems already fitted, why would you bother? You're the buyer, buy something that is suitable for you, not something you need to fix.

Edited October 28, 2023 by blackrose

[Bobbybass]

Be careful of that...Beta 43 and Travelpower arrangement.

It's not a good one...destroyed my engine...and my neighbour had his Beta 43 destroyed after only 6 months.

Beta paid for a new engine. 

Although they have made more recent modifications...its still not good running that big load off the main crank pulley.  

You need to regularly take hold of the main pulley and "waggle " it from side to side with some force.  If you detect any movement...get advice quickly...as the pulley will quickly bite into the crankshaft and then its all over. 

[IanD]

47 minutes ago, Bobbybass said:

Be careful of that...Beta 43 and Travelpower arrangement.

It's not a good one...destroyed my engine...and my neighbour had his Beta 43 destroyed after only 6 months.

Beta paid for a new engine. 

Although they have made more recent modifications...its still not good running that big load off the main crank pulley.  

You need to regularly take hold of the main pulley and "waggle " it from side to side with some force.  If you detect any movement...get advice quickly...as the pulley will quickly bite into the crankshaft and then its all over. 

I believe that the modifications that Beta made to the pulley on newer engines fixed the problem, so long as you don't ignore the "don't run the engine for charging continuously below 1200rpm" rule which is in both the owners manual and on an engine-bay warning sticker. Which I'm sure some boaters do... 😉

Edited October 29, 2023 by IanD

[Mad Harold]

15 hours ago, blackrose said:

 

It's a fair question, but it's actually the people onboard the boat who sign the licence agreement to abide by the "rules" for continuous cruising who may be described as continuous cruisers rather than the boat itself. However, as you're discovering boats may or may not be suitable for continuous cruising depending on the setup.

 

For CCing you really want gas in my opinion, but I'd avoid trying to rectify someone else's mistake on this boat by retrofitting it especially if there is no suitable gas locker. There are so many boats on the market with LPG systems already fitted, why would you bother? You're the buyer, buy something that is suitable for you, not something you need to fix.

You can use a spirit cooker.

Best ones are Origo, but seem to be unavailable new.

There are some used ones for sale on the web.

The heat output is not great, not as good as gas, and are rather fumey things.If you don't do fancy cooking they are adequate.

[system 4-50]

1 minute ago, Mad Harold said:

and are rather fumey things.

If you use them incorrectly.  The flames must not extend over the edges of the base of the cooking vessel or it will smell.  

I found them to be a bit on the slow side.

The big plus of these stoves is that if you have a meths fire you can put it out by throwing water on it.  With most other fuels doing this is disastrous.

[enigmatic]

16 hours ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

Why? Why do all that work and cost when there will be a suitable boat out there? How many boats have you viewed and what’s the attraction about this one, cheap, friends boat, close to you?
 

 

Yeah, this. Adding additional solar panels is relatively inexpensive and probably shouldn't put you off a boat. Getting a gas locker built and connected to a new cooker, replacing a 240 V system with a 12 V system and installing a stove and possibly a new diesel heating system is a lot of work with pricing measured in thousands and timescales measured in months.

 

Apart from anything else, if the owners don't understand or are being less than honest about the suitability for continuous cruising, the boat may have other undisclosed issues...

 

Lots of other boats for sale at the moment (mine included) where when the vendor says it's suitable for continuous cruising, they mean they've actually been living outside marinas and dealing with the power requirements (without running the engine all day or relying on pubs to feed themselves!)

[cuthound]

7 hours ago, IanD said:

I believe that the modifications that Beta made to the pulley on newer engines fixed the problem, so long as you don't ignore the "don't run the engine for charging continuously below 1200rpm" rule which is in both the owners manual and on an engine-bay warning sticker. Which I'm sure some boaters do... 😉

 

Indeed, and they modified the crankshaft around 2005.

 

The early ones have a short crankshaft extension (they cut off the splined crankshaft extension on the base Kabota engine) with the pulleys secured by a Woodruff key into the crankshaft. The later ones made use of the original splined crankshaft extension to secure the pulleys to the crankshaft.

[ditchcrawler]

6 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Indeed, and they modified the crankshaft around 2005.

 

The early ones have a short crankshaft extension (they cut off the splined crankshaft extension on the base Kabota engine) with the pulleys secured by a Woodruff key into the crankshaft. The later ones made use of the original splined crankshaft extension to secure the pulleys to the crankshaft.

Derwent6: Oh No! Not the Crankshaft pulley again    A story of a poorly crankshaft

[cuthound]

5 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Derwent6: Oh No! Not the Crankshaft pulley again    A story of a poorly crankshaft

 

I wonder what revs they kept the engine at when charging? Using the Travelpower at high loads and low revs is known to cause problems even on the newer splined crankshaft engines.

 

I know of several boats fitted with the splined crankshaft and the Travelpower alternator which have clocked up several thousand hours without crankshaft problems. I think @nicknorman's boat has a travelpower nad had clocked up a fair number of hours without crankshaft problems.

 

 

[Bobbybass]

18 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Indeed, and they modified the crankshaft around 2005.

 

The early ones have a short crankshaft extension (they cut off the splined crankshaft extension on the base Kabota engine) with the pulleys secured by a Woodruff key into the crankshaft. The later ones made use of the original splined crankshaft extension to secure the pulleys to the 

The reason I pointed this out....was that the OP hadn't mentioned the age of the boat....and the huge electricity demand may have brought the problem to light.

[cuthound]

31 minutes ago, Bobbybass said:

The reason I pointed this out....was that the OP hadn't mentioned the age of the boat....and the huge electricity demand may have brought the problem to light.

 

Indeed, to be forewarned is to be forearmed.

[Didne]

Wow … I’ve learned all sorts of things I didn’t know I didn’t know … and I’m sure there’s lots more to learn … thank you for all your input, and not just in responding to the questions I asked but also the ones I didn’t ask … didn’t even know to ask … the travelpack ones in particular … a week ago I didn’t even know they existed … and alternative cooking options too …

 

Well you’ll be hugely relieved to know you’ve persuaded me to leave that boat alone ! … I was attracted because I liked its shape and layout, it was only 7 years old (having already had a 33 year old boat fail at survey on a thin baseplate, newer sounds atttractive) and it was reasonably priced which I think may be due to the gas free situation putting people off … I was musing on whether rectifying that oversight might make it a viable option … oh and yes it was local) … I’ve been visiting lots of boats and struggling to find one which matched my ideal layout, but this one pretty much did … I’ve been to three more marinas over the last couple of days viewing boats and oddly enough there was one which someone had done that exact same thing to ie retrofitted gas and a woodburner in a previously gas-free boat  .. (not for sale … it was parked next to one I’d gone to see) … odd looking thing … the new gas locker had been fitted on top of the bow and completely obscured the view from the bow seats  … 

 

Anyway … onwards and upwards …

Didne 

xxx

 

 

Edited October 29, 2023 by Didne

[MrsM]

Really pleased you have taken on board the expert advice you've been given. So many times people ask questions and then get all pantsy when they don't get the answer they want. They've already made up their mind and just want confirmation. You are now that bit better informed and I'm sure your ideal boat will be just round the corner. Best of luck. 

[Didne]

Thank you … I do hope so … xxx

[JungleJames]

Surely there are too many unknowns to write this boat off.

Did it have a diesel boiler (Webasto, Kabola etc). This wasn't mentioned. It was only said that the stove/ fire was electric.

What were the batteries? All that was mentioned was 3 domestic batteries. They could be 3 large lithium batteries with a proper setup. 

 

If it had a diesel boiler and a proper lithium setup, then for the right price it might be feasible.

 

1. Clearly the electric fire needs replacing with a diesel or solid fuel stove.

2. If you have the money, fit a proper built in generator. If not, buy a portable one which you see people running on the tow path. Or, if you really are continuously cruising rather than continuously moored, you could get away with no separate generator.

3. Buy larger solar panels.

 

Sorted, that is all that's needed. You say the boat was a good price. Well, this allows you to fit a solid fuel stove and larger solar panels.

 

But as I said, this depends on certain things that you didn't mention.

 

Most of the time nowadays, the only thing the gas is doing is cooking. If you are going to fit lithium batteries anyway, and can adequately charge them, then fitting gas may be a waste.

 

Of course, if it doesn't have a diesel boiler and lithium batteries, then yes, run for the hills!

 

 

 

[Didne]

Yes it has 3 radiators and a heated towel rail …

and it says 

Source of hot water : Calorifier/ Eberspacher/ Immersion

Central Heating : Eberspacher 

 

is an Eberspacher a diesel boiler ?

 

I did ask what spec the batteries were, but so far no reply

Yes, gas just for cooking … no other use for it as far as I can see 

 

Thanks for giving it some thought 

 

xxx

 

Edited October 29, 2023 by Didne

[blackrose]

12 hours ago, IanD said:

I believe that the modifications that Beta made to the pulley on newer engines fixed the problem, so long as you don't ignore the "don't run the engine for charging continuously below 1200rpm" rule which is in both the owners manual and on an engine-bay warning sticker. Which I'm sure some boaters do... 😉

 

Did that instruction relate to the engine behind used in conjunction with the Travelpower, or is that just a general warning about the use of that engine regardless?

11 hours ago, Mad Harold said:

You can use a spirit cooker.

Best ones are Origo, but seem to be unavailable new.

There are some used ones for sale on the web.

The heat output is not great, not as good as gas, and are rather fumey things.If you don't do fancy cooking they are adequate.

 

But what's the point of an inferior system when gas is readily available?

[JungleJames]

1 hour ago, Didne said:

Yes it has 3 radiators and a heated towel rail …

and it says 

Source of hot water : Calorifier/ Eberspacher/ Immersion

Central Heating : Eberspacher 

 

is an Eberspacher a diesel boiler ?

 

I did ask what spec the batteries were, but so far no reply

Yes, gas just for cooking … no other use for it as far as I can see 

 

Thanks for giving it some thought 

 

xxx

 

Yes, an Eberspacher is a diesel boiler.

https://www.midlandchandlers.co.uk/products/eberspacher-hydronic-m8-12v-narrowboat-kit-eb-003

 

Just a very quick search of mine, but Google it. That'll be your friend.

 

It would actually be handy if the engine coolant system was plumbed into the calorifier as well, so you could get hot water via the heat the engine produces. Not the end of the world, but preferable.

Again, this may be the case, but yours just says Eberspacher/ immersion (That'll be an electric immersion heater). 

 

Anyway, your heating and hot water actually comes predominantly from a diesel boiler. I'd take a bet that the electric fire isn't used very often. 

For liveaboard use, a Kabola diesel boiler would likely be a more reliable option, but more expensive than an Eberspacher. But if you did go for the boat, that's something you could look into for the future.

https://www.kuranda.co.uk/product-category/kabola-heating/kb-series/

 

The above are their soot free boilers, but more types are available. 

 

At least it has plumbing for a diesel boiler.

 

So now your main expense is swapping the electric fire for a solid fuel stove, if you so desired. That or a diesel stove could also be utilised. Just to make the saloon lovely and cosy in the winter. 

 

Fitting larger solar panels (can be relatively inexpensive, and in the summer, could be worth their weight in gold)

 

Then, if it hasn't already, fitting a proper lithium phosphate battery setup. Not cheap.

Again, it may already have lithium batteries. In fact, my first thought was as it only has 3 batteries, they probably are lithium. But that's a wild guess. You need to find out for sure.

 

Lithium batteries will make it more usable, considering you are using them for cooking as well.

 

Oh, and if you do need to fit lithium, don't just pick one of these so called 'drop in replacement' lithium batteries.

It is a bit more complicated than that.

Look at this guys work, and it gives you an idea what is needed:

https://fourcountiesmarineservices.com/lithium-batteries/

 

Look after lithium batteries, and they should last ages. So a way of monitoring them is always good, as is shown on a lot of the above work.

 

So whereas others look at the cheap price and think-

"It's cheap for a reason, run for the hills".

Perhaps now you could start seeing the cheapness as money saved to improve the boat.

 

First though, find out for sure whether the batteries are lithium. 

 

PS. This is partly dependant on being a real continuous cruiser. If you sit around moored on the tow path for 2 weeks at a time, then you really need a separate generator, especially in winter with no solar. An expensive built in diesel one, or a cheap petrol one which you sit on the tow path and plug in to the boat.

Your main engine is not going to thank you for running on idle to charge your batteries. 

 

PS PS. 

The other option is to rarely use the cooker, and to always moor up near to decent restaurants and takeaways!!!!

 

If you were really good, you could get away with lead acid (Or AGM) batteries. But with no gas for cooking, lithium phosphate batteries would make life so much easier. Lead acid would take ages to charge up, and would soon die if you didn't.

 

But make sure you have means of charging whatever batteries you have, and reliable means of checking their state of charge. 

Oh, I am of course assuming you like the boat.

It is of course always wise to keep looking at the same time, just in case you find another one you like that does have gas and a stove fitted. 

[GUMPY]

An Eberspacher is not suitable as a primary source of heating.

Very good as a backup/additional source with a SF or diesel stove but other than that ..........

[blackrose]

5 hours ago, JungleJames said:

So now your main expense is swapping the electric fire for a solid fuel stove, if you so desired. That or [and] a diesel stove could also be utilised. Just to make the saloon lovely and cosy in the winter. 

 

My correction in parentheses. 

 

People who live on boats should soon realise that the more systems one has onboard the better. It's not a question of either/or, it's a question of backup, so if one system stops working others are available. 

 

While a solid fuel stove without any other form of heating is fine (because there's not much that can go wrong with a solid fuel stove which has been checked & serviced each summer), an Eberspacher or Webasto diesel heater without any other form of heating is not recommended for a liveaboard.

[JungleJames]

30 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

My correction in parentheses. 

 

People who live on boats should soon realise that the more systems one has onboard the better. It's not a question of either/or, it's a question of backup, so if one system stops working others are available. 

 

While a solid fuel stove without any other form of heating is fine (because there's not much that can go wrong with a solid fuel stove which has been checked & serviced each summer), an Eberspacher or Webasto diesel heater without any other form of heating is not recommended for a liveaboard.

I think you have me wrong sir.

 

I was on about stoves when I said solid fuel or diesel. Not many boats around with both. 

 

I fully agree you need a diesel boiler (Ok, an Eberspacher is pushing the boundaries as far as that term goes) and a stove. 

It's only because the boat in question actually has an Eberspacher and plumbing for a diesel boiler that I think it has some merit.

 

1 hour ago, GUMPY said:

An Eberspacher is not suitable as a primary source of heating.

Very good as a backup/additional source with a SF or diesel stove but other than that ..........

Yep. Agree. 

The electric fire does need replacing with a stove.

 

Actually, I'm surprised any Live aboards use Eberspacher or Webastos.

Should really be a Kabola for something likely to see a fair bit of use.

 

See too many problems with the others. But, I'm seemingly in the minority thinking that way. 

[Tony1]

 

I can totally see why you've asked about the feasibility of the boats current setup, because at only 7 years old, many of the boat systems will still be in good condition and not needing fixing/replacement for a while.

But I've tried living aboard using only diesel CH (you can forget about the electric fire if you're not on shore power), and it was awful. I used the CH until mid-November before I got a SF stove fitted, and it instantly transformed the whole experience. 

The thing is, by adding a gas cooker and SF stove, you'll be increasing the value of the boat- so its not 'dead' money, so to speak. You'll get a proportion of that money back when you sell. 

If there are lots of other things that attract you about this boat, I would ask around and scour the internet to get some estimates for a gas installation and a SF stove (a DEFRA approved one, of course). Getting good boat professionals can be a minefield, so look long and hard at any recommendations. 

I've no idea of the cost of those two jobs, but if you can get them done AND the total price is still less than the price of a normal boat (i.e. one with those things already present), then it doesnt look too bad a plan- you'll have a brand new stove and gas setup that probably wont need any attention for years (apart from servicing).  

But there are some things that give pause, as has been said.

The lack of 12v electrics would might be a problem for most future buyers, but I'm sort of ok with it, as I only use 12v for the lights anyway- my fridge, kettle, toaster, and most other stuff are 240v. So get an estimate for installing some 12v electrics for lights etc, and add that to the remedial work bill. But for me, that would be a job that could be put off till next summer.

The engine at 7 years old might still be in very good condition, but it might have lots of idle running hours due to having to generate lots of charge, so maybe not as great as you might have first hoped. 

It sounds as if the travelpower setup could do with checking to make sure its hasn't caused any crankshaft issues- for all you know, there could be a problem brewing and that's one of the reasons why they're selling it. 

If there is a gas locker in bow then great, no extra cost for that. 

I don't think I would personally bother with doing all the work needed, and running the risk that there will be other unforeseen jobs added in due to the boat's unusual systems, because the whole thing with this is that ideally you end up with a boat you really like, with the systems fitted that you need, BUT also at a good price. If the costs start adding up, the deal has lost its big positive point. 

I can understand people thinking- why take the chance and go through the hassle of it all? 

 

ETA- another thing to check- if the boat's been cruising a lot in colder weather it will have had to rely on the diesel CH, so the Eberspacher might have lots more operating hours on it than a similar unit on a boat with a SF stove.

So there could be a potential hidden cost in a few years time, depending on its current condition.  

 

 

 

Edited October 30, 2023 by Tony1

[blackrose]

48 minutes ago, JungleJames said:

I think you have me wrong sir.

 

I was on about stoves when I said solid fuel or diesel. Not many boats around with both. 

 

 

Ok fair enough I misread diesel as a Eberspacher or Webasto, etc.

50 minutes ago, JungleJames said:

Actually, I'm surprised any Live aboards use Eberspacher or Webastos.

 

 

Really? How many liveaboards do you know? Nearly all I know have one or the other, myself included. They're fine as long as they're used as a supplementary or secondary form of heating.

24 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

The thing is, by adding a gas cooker and SF stove, you'll be increasing the value of the boat- so its not 'dead' money, so to speak. You'll get a proportion of that money back when you sell. 

 

I doubt that very much, not in my experience anyway. It's just not the way it usually works. 

 

The value of new installations comes through use to those living on or using the boat so it's still shouldn't be seen as "dead money". However the cost of those installations isn't generally recouped (even partially) when the boat is resold.