Sheffield to Anderton on Rallentando

[nicknorman]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

It could well have built up while the boat was in build -- maybe a year empty since the hull was first built and probably several months then with a mostly empty tank during fitout -- but also we must have sucked in 100l or so of moist air while emptying the tank -- and some of it was pretty damn moist, I can tell you...

 

Fuel cap is well sealed and the tank vent (on top of hollow bollard) doesn't let water in.

 

I now know what to look for in future anyway -- there's an easily accessible drain right at the bottom of the tank, and one on the main filter/separator.

 

Of course the other point is that a totally empty tank doesn't suffer from a build up of condensation. As the temperature and relative humidity vary, some condensation may form on the tank insides. But then later when conditions change, it will evaporate again. There can be no nett gain of liquid water.

You only get a build up if the condensation runs down the side of the tank or drips from the roof, and then falls below the level of diesel so that a layer of diesel on top of it prevents evaporation, and then a change of air brings in new moisture.

[Rob-M]

We had a water issue with our tank but I think it possibly got in the tank when we were filling with diesel and had the end of the suppliers tank as they ran out whilst serving us, the other source may have been a locking fuel cap that was possibly leaking.  As we use the boat over winter and run the Eberspacher and engine it isn't possible to keep the tank completely full.

[Tracy D'arth]

I cannot believe that you have gained sufficient condensation in such a short time.

 

Has the tank passed its pressure test or is the pass a fabrication?

I would be looking for a source of the water either from fillers and vents or from missing welded seams in the tank.

It is not unknown for the rudder tube not to be fully welded to the deck at the top. Reversing throws water up the tube and into the tank.

 

The other possibility is malice. I have evidenced someone urinating into fuel tanks as a jape before.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Tracy D'arth

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Rob-M said:

We had a water issue with our tank but I think it possibly got in the tank when we were filling with diesel and had the end of the suppliers tank as they ran out whilst serving us, the other source may have been a locking fuel cap that was possibly leaking.  As we use the boat over winter and run the Eberspacher and engine it isn't possible to keep the tank completely full.

 

Yes, nobody else seems to have considered the possibility that contaminated diesel was the source of the problem.

[Midnight]

5 hours ago, GUMPY said:

Agree totally with this. I did my first check after 10 years of ownership on the water trap on Loddon just before I sold it. Result was just a small bit of sludge in the bottom of the trap  and that's on a 30 year old boat that has probably never been done before.

In 40+ years of boating over many boats I have never seen this mythical  condensation 🤔

I had a problem with water in the tank after about 10 years and I had been using an additive. I stopped using additives, syphoned the tank bottom, polished the diesel and I have never had an issue since - that's almost another 10 years. My tank is rarely full in the winter and I take a sample from the bottom of the tank regularly.

[IanD]

4 hours ago, M_JG said:

 

Yes, nobody else seems to have considered the possibility that contaminated diesel was the source of the problem.

Except that was considered, because the same batch of (freshly-delivered) diesel was used to fill up another boat too which hasn't had the same problem.

6 hours ago, nicknorman said:

 

Of course the other point is that a totally empty tank doesn't suffer from a build up of condensation. As the temperature and relative humidity vary, some condensation may form on the tank insides. But then later when conditions change, it will evaporate again. There can be no nett gain of liquid water.

You only get a build up if the condensation runs down the side of the tank or drips from the roof, and then falls below the level of diesel so that a layer of diesel on top of it prevents evaporation, and then a change of air brings in new moisture.

The tank first had a small amount of diesel put in several months ago to start testing things, and was then filled up just before I collected the boat. That seems to have given an opportunity for condensation to happen.

4 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

I cannot believe that you have gained sufficient condensation in such a short time.

 

Has the tank passed its pressure test or is the pass a fabrication?

I would be looking for a source of the water either from fillers and vents or from missing welded seams in the tank.

It is not unknown for the rudder tube not to be fully welded to the deck at the top. Reversing throws water up the tube and into the tank.

 

The other possibility is malice. I have evidenced someone urinating into fuel tanks as a jape before.

If you believe that, I suggest you directly accuse Tim Tyler and Finesse of malpractice -- based on zero evidence -- and see how long it takes for them to sue you for libel. All the evidence I have is that they've both done a thoroughly professional job of the boat build, I've found nothing that wasn't done "properly" without corner-cutting, in fact just the opposite.

Edited October 18, 2023 by IanD

[Stroudwater1]

14 minutes ago, IanD said:

Except that was considered, because the same batch of (freshly-delivered) diesel was used to fill up another boat too which hasn't had the same problem.

 

If you believe that, I suggest you directly accuse Tim Tyler and Finesse of malpractice -- based on zero evidence -- and see how long it takes for them to sue you for libel. All the evidence I have is that they've both done a thoroughly professional job of the boat build.

Steady on Ian. It’s perfectly reasonable to make suggestions. No need to blow up. It’s certainly a strange development, and many of us are surprised at the development of condensation causing such contamination so rapidly. 
 

It just sounds fishy, which is why many have posted other thoughts. 
 

As an aside I know someone who did have urine contamination in his car petrol years ago. The cause being found as  the person in the psychiatric hospital was seen to do it on the third occasion 
 

Hope all goes well from now on. Must have been a shock to have it happen. 

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, IanD said:

Except that was considered, because the same batch of (freshly-delivered) diesel was used to fill up another boat too which hasn't had the same problem.

 

I must have missed where you mentioned this......

[IanD]

14 minutes ago, Stroudwater1 said:

Steady on Ian. It’s perfectly reasonable to make suggestions. No need to blow up. It’s certainly a strange development, and many of us are surprised at the development of condensation causing such contamination so rapidly. 
 

It just sounds fishy, which is why many have posted other thoughts. 
 

As an aside I know someone who did have urine contamination in his car petrol years ago. The cause being found as  the person in the psychiatric hospital was seen to do it on the third occasion 
 

Hope all goes well from now on. Must have been a shock to have it happen. 

It's perfectly reasonable to make suggestions, but some people's first reaction is to make accusations of incompetence based on no evidence, and I don't think this is reasonable.

 

It was a shock -- and as soon as I descibed the symptoms to Ricky, after doing some remote diagnostics his first suggestion was "sounds like a fuel problem, maybe water". He drove over from Sheffield to Lymm the following morning with John, diagnosed and solved the problem, did the first genny 50hr service at the same time, and fixed a couple of other little glitches while they were here. I call that excellent service, not incompetence... 😉

 

There wasn't obviously a lot of water in the diesel they drained from the bottom of the tank (the pickup is a few inches up to avoid this), but the fuel filter/sparator had a lot of water in it which must have come from somewhere -- I guess the quantity was quite small since it can't hold more than a litre or so.

10 minutes ago, M_JG said:

 

I must have missed where you mentioned this......

I didn't, you just made an unwarranted assumption... 😉

Edited October 18, 2023 by IanD

[Tracy D'arth]

7 minutes ago, IanD said:

It's perfectly reasonable to make suggestions, but some people's first reaction is to make accusations of incompetence based on no evidence, and I don't think this is reasonable.

 

It was a shock -- and as soon as I descibed the symptoms to Ricky, after doing some remore diagnostics his first suggestion was "sounds like a fuel problem, maybe water". He drove over from Sheffield to Lymm the following morning with John, diagnosed and solved the problem, did the first genny 50hr service at the same time, and fixed a couple of other little glitches while they were here. I call that excellent service, not incompetence... 😉

 

There wasn't obviously a lot of water in the diesel they drained from the bottom of the tank (the pickup is a few inches u to avoid this), but the fuel filter/sparator had a lot of water in it which must have come from somewhere -- but I guess the quantity was quite small since it can't hold more than a litre or so.

I didn't, you just made an unwarranted assumption... 😉

I never called anyone incompetent nor did I accuse anyone of malpractice.   Do not put words into my mouth please.

 

Errors can be made by anyone.

 

I have known all of the reasons that I put forward to have occurred in the past.

I await what further developments occur, I think you have not heard the last of this problem.

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, IanD said:

It's perfectly reasonable to make suggestions, but some people's first reaction is to make accusations of incompetence based on no evidence, and I don't think this is reasonable.

 

It was a shock -- and as soon as I descibed the symptoms to Ricky, after doing some remote diagnostics his first suggestion was "sounds like a fuel problem, maybe water". He drove over from Sheffield to Lymm the following morning with John, diagnosed and solved the problem, did the first genny 50hr service at the same time, and fixed a couple of other little glitches while they were here. I call that excellent service, not incompetence... 😉

 

There wasn't obviously a lot of water in the diesel they drained from the bottom of the tank (the pickup is a few inches up to avoid this), but the fuel filter/sparator had a lot of water in it which must have come from somewhere -- I guess the quantity was quite small since it can't hold more than a litre or so.

I didn't, you just made an unwarranted assumption... 😉

 

Stroll on, no wonder you get right up people's noses on here. I made a suggestion, similar to what others have made.

 

Nothing unwarranted at all. Do yourself a favour and put me back,on ignore for the 15th time this year.

 

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by M_JG

[mrsmelly]

Just now, M_JG said:

 

Stroll on, no wonder you get right up people's noses on here. I made a suggestion, similar to what others have made.

 

Nothing unwarranted at all. Do yourself a favour and put me back,on ignore for the 15th time this year.

 

 

He has much to learn. We all started somewhere.

[nicknorman]

14 minutes ago, IanD said:

It's perfectly reasonable to make suggestions, but some people's first reaction is to make accusations of incompetence based on no evidence, and I don't think this is reasonable.

 

It was a shock -- and as soon as I descibed the symptoms to Ricky, after doing some remote diagnostics his first suggestion was "sounds like a fuel problem, maybe water". He drove over from Sheffield to Lymm the following morning with John, diagnosed and solved the problem, did the first genny 50hr service at the same time, and fixed a couple of other little glitches while they were here. I call that excellent service, not incompetence... 😉

 

There wasn't obviously a lot of water in the diesel they drained from the bottom of the tank (the pickup is a few inches up to avoid this), but the fuel filter/sparator had a lot of water in it which must have come from somewhere -- I guess the quantity was quite small since it can't hold more than a litre or so.

I didn't, you just made an unwarranted assumption... 😉

It’s your new baby and you are upset because you think people are criticising it. However no-one mentioned builder incompetence so don’t go off on one!

 

The hard facts are that there is a 99% certainty that the problem has not arisen due to condensation. Liquid water has gained entry to the tank either on its own or mixed with diesel. There is no other feasible explanation. You can chose to ignore this of course, but if there is a leak somewhere where water is getting in, the problem will recur.

[IanD]

BTW now at Anderton, total number of weed hatch trips in 10 days including the Rochdale = 2 (plastic carrier bags both times). Not easy to tell when this has happened, no obvious thrashing from the prop, all that happens is the boat goes slower than it should do at a given power level -- or it takes more power to go as fast as desired...

 

Typical cruising power consumption was probably closer to 4kW than 3kW but then we had a long way to get in a relatively short time, this meant the generator was running about half the time on long continuous cruising sections. On more typical canals with more locks and moored boats the ratio was between 1/3 and 1/4 of the time, obviously there was a lot less solar at this time of year than in the summer.

 

Looking at the statistics in VRM, over the last week the generator has provided 159kWh and solar 16kWh, AC consumption was 52kWh meaning 107kWh for DC including propulsion, which is 15kWh/day -- very close to my power audit estimate of 14kWh/day.

2 minutes ago, M_JG said:

 

Stroll on, no wonder you get right up people's noses on here. I made a suggestion, similar to what others have made.

 

Nothing unwarranted at all. Do yourself a favour and put me back,on ignore for the 15th time this year.

 

 

Gladly 🙂

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

He has much to learn. We all started somewhere.

 

Frankly I wouldnt be surprised if somebody on here has pissed in his fuel tank.

 

3 minutes ago, IanD said:

Gladly 🙂

 

Make it permanent though, eh?

Edited October 18, 2023 by M_JG

[IanD]

15 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

It’s your new baby and you are upset because you think people are criticising it. However no-one mentioned builder incompetence so don’t go off on one!

 

The hard facts are that there is a 99% certainty that the problem has not arisen due to condensation. Liquid water has gained entry to the tank either on its own or mixed with diesel. There is no other feasible explanation. You can chose to ignore this of course, but if there is a leak somewhere where water is getting in, the problem will recur.

I'm not upset because people are criticising it, I'm annoyed at some of the assumptions being thrown around which don't seem based on the facts -- and no, I'm not going to go into any further details about this given the vitriolic responses from some people, I wish I'd never brought it up... 😞

 

If the post by @Tracy D'arth isn't suggesting builder incompetence, I don't know what is... 😉

 

I'm not rejecting anything as a cause, but I know the boat has been sitting there since summer with not much diesel in the tank which is a classic cause of condensation, as you pointed out. If the tank was pressure tested -- which I assume is the case, and I'll ask for confirmation -- then most of the other proposed causes are excluded.

 

If it does happen again then rest assured that I'll be back onto Finesse to find out the cause and fix it -- and based on what I've seen so far, I have no reason to think they won't do their best to resolve the problem, like they have with various other teething problems. Which I haven't posted about to avoid the inevitable shower of sh*t... 😞

Edited October 18, 2023 by IanD

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, IanD said:

I'm not upset because people are criticising it, I'm annoyed at some of the assumptions being thrown around which don't seem based on the facts,

 

I  

 

People can only know 'facts' if they are presented with them, so if you had said at the start that the same fuel from the same batch had been put into another boat and that boat had not experienced issues, guess what?

 

Answer - fuel contamination at the source wouldnt have been suggested as a possible cause of your difficulties.

 

I await your recognition of this being a valid point but I suspect hell will freeze over before that happens.

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by M_JG
Spooling errors..

[IanD]

Sadly, the way this thread has gone is reminding me why I maybe shouldn't have listened to interested people who requested I post a cruise diary... 😞

Edited October 18, 2023 by IanD

[cuthound]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

Except that was considered, because the same batch of (freshly-delivered) diesel was used to fill up another boat too which hasn't had the same problem.

 

Could it be water in the fuel suppliers tank?

 

I had this issue with my second shareboat. The boatyard we were at one year didn't realise that external above ground tanks can collect significant amounts of condensation over the years unless the water is regularly drained. Boats filling up when the tank was 25% full or less got a mix of diesel and water. 

 

The boat stopped a day and a half out from its base and had over 50 litres of water in the bottom of its tank...

 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

Sadly, the way this thread has gone is reminding me why I shouldn't have listened to people who requested I post a cruise diary... 😞

 

You 100% caused it, yet again but again you have failed to regognise it.

 

You think you have some sort of god given right to say what you like but that people have no right to respond, if you just engaged your brain before making some of your posts they wouldnt go off track.

 

Especially when people are trying to help.

 

 

[Jon57]

9 hours ago, IanD said:

It could well have built up while the boat was in build -- maybe a year empty since the hull was first built and probably several months then with a mostly empty tank during fitout -- but also we must have sucked in 100l or so of moist air while emptying the tank -- and some of it was pretty damn moist, I can tell you...

 

Fuel cap is well sealed and the tank vent (on top of hollow bollard) doesn't let water in.

 

I now know what to look for in future anyway -- there's an easily accessible drain right at the bottom of the tank, and one on the main filter/separator.

Just a thought. Could a crew member inadvertently put the water hose in the diesel filler by mistake. And quickly realised their mistake and rather than get the full on telling off said nothing?🤭

 

 

[nicknorman]

4 minutes ago, Jon57 said:

Just a thought. Could a crew member inadvertently put the water hose in the diesel filler by mistake. And quickly realised their mistake and rather than get the full on telling off said nothing?🤭

 

 

A telling off? From Ian? Surely not!🙂

1 hour ago, IanD said:

 I know the boat has been sitting there since summer with not much diesel in the tank which is a classic cause of condensation, as you pointed out.

 

 

I suggest that virtually all boats that are built spend quite a long time with no or not much diesel in the tank, and  yet they don't have a problem with water in the fuel.

One of the reasons why I am persisting with this is to hopefully avoid you stressing about keeping the tank as full as possible to avoid a repeat. Lots of people have tanks that are never or rarely full and yet decades go by without them having a problem.

So it's for your own good - now bend over and take it like a man!😁

[Midnight]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

Sadly, the way this thread has gone is reminding me why I maybe shouldn't have listened to interested people who requested I post a cruise diary... 😞

I asked for the cruise diary and I'm pleased you posted. In 3 out of 6 crossings we've encountered issues so it is pleasing to know you got over okay although not without some stressful moments by the sound of it.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Midnight

[booke23]

3 hours ago, IanD said:

There wasn't obviously a lot of water in the diesel they drained from the bottom of the tank (the pickup is a few inches up to avoid this), but the fuel filter/sparator had a lot of water in it which must have come from somewhere -- I guess the quantity was quite small since it can't hold more than a litre or so.

 

On the face of it, something isn't adding up. Surely there should have been many litres of water in the tank to allow it to be picked up by the raised pickup?

 

All new boats have problems that have to be worked trough, and it can be a stressful process, so keep calm and work the issues. In 6 months you'll laugh about it all. 

[IanD]

13 hours ago, Jon57 said:

Just a thought. Could a crew member inadvertently put the water hose in the diesel filler by mistake. And quickly realised their mistake and rather than get the full on telling off said nothing?🤭

 

I was there at every water fillup, and the water inlet is at the opposite end of the boat from the diesel one... 😉

13 hours ago, nicknorman said:

A telling off? From Ian? Surely not!🙂

 

I suggest that virtually all boats that are built spend quite a long time with no or not much diesel in the tank, and  yet they don't have a problem with water in the fuel.

One of the reasons why I am persisting with this is to hopefully avoid you stressing about keeping the tank as full as possible to avoid a repeat. Lots of people have tanks that are never or rarely full and yet decades go by without them having a problem.

So it's for your own good - now bend over and take it like a man!😁

Nobody gets a telling off from me for doing something stupid, that's usually the my job -- for example putting the first scrape on the hull within about two minutes of setting off means I can't really tell anyone else off for doing the same... 😉

 

I'm following up on the other possibilities suggested, but as I.said contaminated fuel seems unlikely since it was fresh in and other boats were filled at the same time.

 

It's all very puzzling, I'd love to know what actually happened, but nothing obvious so far -- condensation does seem unlikely but there's no better explantation yet...

 

It's just occurred to me that we drew a gallon or so out of the bottom of the tank and left it to settle and there was no sign of diesel floating on water -- but could it *all* have been water? It looked like red diesel but we didn't actually run any between two fingers to check...

Edited October 19, 2023 by IanD