Sheffield to Anderton on Rallentando

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

But why would a boat that’s primarily electric need the conventional large diesel tank at the stern,

would it not simply have a small tank to the side of the genny?

for the odd occasion it might be needed,

[MtB]

 

 

Oh look, another load of electric boat fuel ready for delivery...

 

 

 

 

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

1 hour ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

But why would a boat that’s primarily electric need the conventional large diesel tank at the stern,

would it not simply have a small tank to the side of the genny?

for the odd occasion it might be needed,

I would say it’s easier just to use a hull design that has a conventional fuel tank, as there’s a lot of stuff in the engine bay and the generator is a large Kohler unit, not your normal small narrowboat Honda i20 size, so best to have a large 200ltr fuel tank and using the normal narrowboat fuel tank means there’s more space and with the generator being in the engine bay it’s close to it anyway.

 This time of year when there’s not much solar these hybrid electric boats relay on having a large generator to charge the battery bank, as everything on board is electric, propulsion, heating, cooking, hot water, so moving all day the generator will be used to charge the batteries in order to use all the appliances, so the generator is used quite a lot. I’m sure @IanD will give a full breakdown of how a hybrid electric boat running this time of year uses solar/generator to cruise. 

Edited October 22, 2023 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[PaulJ]

1 hour ago, GUMPY said:

Years ago there was a Jonathan Wilson boat at my old moorings that had this problem. When the water tank was full the weld was above the waterline, when empty it was below. It took many months to find the broken weld.

It happens. I got called out to a widebeam many years ago that had suddenly started leaking long after the owner had it put in the water.

Turned out the weed hatch was missing a weld which only became obvious when most of the fitout /ballasting had been completed.

 

[IanD]

13 hours ago, MtB said:

Given the speed with which all this water appeared in the diesel supply, Occam's Razor suggests a missing or incomplete weld allowing canal water in.

 

 

How is that possible when the tank was pressure tested before the boat was put into the water?

 

There's nothing that says this water appeared in the diesel *quickly*. As I explained earlier (after talking to Ricky about the problem at great length) some diesel (maybe 20l or so?) was put into the tank relatively early in the build, probably last summer. So it was sitting there all winter, possibly collecting condensation to sit on the bottom of the tank, until the tank was filled up just before I collected the boat. My assumption is that during the cruise I used up all the clean diesel sitting on top of the water and got down to the crud, according to the fuel gauge we were down to about 25% full. The main fuel filter/separator had "quite a lot" of water in it when it was changed, presumably meaning a few egg-cupfuls given the size of the unit -- there's also another filter inside the generator, both were changed for new ones.

 

As I've said several times there is an easily accessible drain tap at the bottom of the tank, and next time I visit the boat I'll drain off some more fuel to see what it looks like -- it's possible that there may still be almost pure water sitting at the bottom of the tank, which I really don't want... 😞

[GUMPY]

If the boat was inside a building whilst being built then there would have been very little temperature change to aid the condensation build up.

[MtB]

4 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

How is that possible when the tank was pressure tested before the boat was put into the water?

 

Well, I could paraphrase that nice Mandy Rice-Davies... on the other hand, no forget it. 

 

DId you see them pressure test it?

 

 

[IanD]

13 hours ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

I would say it’s easier just to use a hull design that has a conventional fuel tank, as there’s a lot of stuff in the engine bay and the generator is a large Kohler unit, not your normal small narrowboat Honda i20 size, so best to have a large 200ltr fuel tank and using the normal narrowboat fuel tank means there’s more space and with the generator being in the engine bay it’s close to it anyway.

 This time of year when there’s not much solar these hybrid electric boats relay on having a large generator to charge the battery bank, as everything on board is electric, propulsion, heating, cooking, hot water, so moving all day the generator will be used to charge the batteries in order to use all the appliances, so the generator is used quite a lot. I’m sure @IanD will give a full breakdown of how a hybrid electric boat running this time of year uses solar/generator to cruise. 

That's exactly the case with these boats -- both heating and generator are diesel and sit at the stern next to a normal-sized diesel tank, there's no reason to have anything smaller since the space can't really be used for anything else.

 

There is relatively little solar at this time of year -- about 2kWh/day average during the trip -- and so as expected the generator obviously does have to run more than in summer when I'd expect about 7kWh/day, which means about an hour a day extra generator running time. On top of domestic use -- all-electric, as pointed out, and also heavier now than in summer -- the power needed for propulsion also depends on how fast you're travelling, for how many hours a day, whether it's on a canal or upstream on a river, and how much/little time is spent slowing down past moored boats or sitting in locks.

 

The long stretch from Sheffield to Brighouse was very much a worst-case for this type of boat, we were travelling quite fast (4-5kW power) for getting on for 9 hours a day with little slowing down, and so we were averaging maybe 60% generator running time over this period. After this on the C&H and Rochdale there are few moored boats to slow down for but plenty of locks, then on the Bridgewater there were a lot more moored boats but no locks, so less than 50% runtime. On a more "normal" cruise with more typical numbers of locks I'd expect the running time to be lower still, especially in summer (meaning, not October...) when I expect to do most cruising. This is all when doing long days (about 8h) by most people's standards; in summer if not moving so much, I wouldn't expect to need the generator at all.

 

After 10 days of heavy cruising and 150 locks we filled up with 100l of diesel at Lymm, my best guess is that a diesel boat would have used about 50% more fuel.

30 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Well, I could paraphrase that nice Mandy Rice-Davies... on the other hand, no forget it. 

 

DId you see them pressure test it?

 

 

No, just like I didn't see them do every single weld on the boat. At some point you have to trust a reputable builder who says they've done something properly... 😉

32 minutes ago, GUMPY said:

If the boat was inside a building whilst being built then there would have been very little temperature change to aid the condensation build up.

For a large part of the initial build -- after painting -- the boat was in a covered shed but with the end doors usually open. Later on it was in a more enclosed shed but still with no heating, for sure it got hotter and colder with the changing weather and during the day all the times I was there.

Edited October 23, 2023 by IanD

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

15 hours ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

a large Kohler unit, not your normal small narrowboat Honda i20 size,

I never thought for a moment it’d be a little petrol generator 😂👍

 

but thought with significantly less use than the average narrowboat’s engine, then maybe a smaller tank for the genny. 🤷‍♀️Just a thought. 
 

as an aside, I’ve two small tanks for my engine, and neither are integral to the hull. They sit neatly on top of the swim. 150L between the two of them. Why done like that I don’t know. 


but of course with the OP needing diesel for heating then yes, clearly a decent size tank is needed. 

Edited October 23, 2023 by beerbeerbeerbeerbeer

[IanD]

30 minutes ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

I never thought for a moment it’d be a little petrol generator 😂👍

 

but thought with significantly less use than the average narrowboat’s engine, then maybe a smaller tank for the genny. 🤷‍♀️Just a thought. 
 

as an aside, I’ve two small tanks for my engine, and neither are integral to the hull. They sit neatly on top of the swim. 150L between the two of them. Why done like that I don’t know. 

but of course with the OP needing diesel for heating then yes, clearly a decent size tank is needed. 

 

In theory a smaller tank is needed, but I think it makes more sense to keep the same size tank and have longer range between fillups. Also with diesel heating you don't want to run out, for obvious reasons...

 

Speaking of which, the heating is basically a downsized domestic oil CH system not a Webasto/Eberspacher, it behaves exactly like CH at home, programmable hot water/CH via a Nest learning thermostat -- again, remotely controllable if needed, includes frost protection etc.

Edited October 23, 2023 by IanD

[magnetman]

Day tank is the way to go.

 

 

 

If I was specifying a new boat it would always have a day tank for the engine and/or generator. 

 

It just -is- the right way to do it. 

 

Cuts out lift pump nonsense, you can easily arrange a sediment drain and it is basically just the right thing. 

 

No disadvantages. Also makes it a lot easier to track fuel consumption. 

 

I would also make the main tanks have a combined total of 500 litres or more with proper large filler, balance and vents so as to be able to get road tanker deliveries. 

 

 

Filler on each side would be nice. 

[dmr]

1 hour ago, magnetman said:

Day tank is the way to go.

 

 

 

If I was specifying a new boat it would always have a day tank for the engine and/or generator. 

 

It just -is- the right way to do it. 

 

Cuts out lift pump nonsense, you can easily arrange a sediment drain and it is basically just the right thing. 

 

No disadvantages. Also makes it a lot easier to track fuel consumption. 

 

I would also make the main tanks have a combined total of 500 litres or more with proper large filler, balance and vents so as to be able to get road tanker deliveries. 

 

 

Filler on each side would be nice. 

 

All good stuff, especially big tank and filler for tankers. We have a filler each side but most boats have the filler right at the back so its less important. Not sure about a day tank, it works well but you do have to remember to fill it 😀 Are they allowed on new builds???

 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

I was thinking/considering perhaps a day tank. 
But then you gotta fill it each day from Jerry cans. 
Ok if you got the old working boat with an engine room. 
But I can’t see a leisure boater wanting to take their slippers off after every breakfast to do that. 
I certainly wouldn’t. 
 

How big/small is/was a day tank on a boat?

Ive always thought they’d be about 2-3 gallon. 🤷‍♀️Enough for a long day and a bit more 
 

[Stroudwater1]

33 minutes ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

I was thinking/considering perhaps a day tank. 
But then you gotta fill it each day from Jerry cans. 
Ok if you got the old working boat with an engine room. 
But I can’t see a leisure boater wanting to take their slippers off after every breakfast to do that. 
I certainly wouldn’t. 
 

How big/small is/was a day tank on a boat?

Ive always thought they’d be about 2-3 gallon. 🤷‍♀️Enough for a long day and a bit more 
 

They fill surprisingly fast, just part of the closing down for the evening like screwing the stern gland greaser. It’s quite therapeutic  in a funny sort of way. I agree it wouldn’t do without an engine room. 
 

I’m not sure but believe ours is around 5 or more gallons and I know it lasts around 3 1/2 or so days 

[Jon57]

3 minutes ago, Stroudwater1 said:

They fill surprisingly fast, just part of the closing down for the evening like screwing the stern gland greaser. It’s quite therapeutic  in a funny sort of way. I agree it wouldn’t do without an engine room. 
 

I’m not sure but believe ours is around 5 or more gallons and I know it lasts around 3 1/2 or so days 

Yep filling the day tank can be therapeutic. Just imagine it’s a beer pump, it fills in no time. Tastes and smell not as good 👍

[magnetman]

2 minutes ago, Jon57 said:

Yep filling the day tank can be therapeutic. Just imagine it’s a beer pump, it fills in no time. Tastes and smell not as good 👍

I really like the smell of diesel. 

 

Having had it in my mouth on several occasions I can confirm drinking is not the best way to use it. 

[Jon57]

Just now, magnetman said:

I really like the smell of diesel. 

 

Having had it in my mouth on several occasions I can confirm drinking is not the best way to use it. 

Certainly a lot cheaper than beer🤣🤣

[magnetman]

 

 

As for the day tank it would be easy enough to arrange an automatic pump and an overflow back to the main tank in the event of sensor failure. 

 

I don't know how this works with new boats but I would never under any circumstances have a new boat. 

6 minutes ago, Jon57 said:

Certainly a lot cheaper than beer🤣🤣

 

The medical bills are a little higher and come on quicker. 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

14 minutes ago, magnetman said:

As for the day tank it would be easy enough to arrange an automatic pump and an overflow back to the main tank in the event of sensor failure. 

if your gonna introduce that malarkey then you may as well draw straight from the main tank ? 

[Tacet]

8 hours ago, IanD said:

 

 

After 10 days of heavy cruising and 150 locks we filled up with 100l of diesel at Lymm, my best guess is that a diesel boat would have used about 50% more fuel.

 

That's interesting.  Using Canalplans standard settings, it's a 76 hour trip via the Richdale.   If the generator was running half that time, it's a fairly thirsty 2.5+litres per hour.

 

A standard-ish modern narrowboat might typically consume 1.5 litres per hour, or about 120 litres for a similar trip.  But the rate does shoot up if you are pushing on, I'm told.

[Paul C]

9 minutes ago, Tacet said:

That's interesting.  Using Canalplans standard settings, it's a 76 hour trip via the Richdale.   If the generator was running half that time, it's a fairly thirsty 2.5+litres per hour.

 

A standard-ish modern narrowboat might typically consume 1.5 litres per hour, or about 120 litres for a similar trip.  But the rate does shoot up if you are pushing on, I'm told.

 

Using your 76 hour figure, I think Ian's estimate of 50% better than a standard narrowboat is about right. We typically use 2l/hr when averaged out over the week (so, while the cruising is xx hours, the overall engine running is more.

 

I am not surprised a generator would use MORE than the equivalent diesel WHEN ITS RUNNING, since a basic principle of diesel engines is that they are most efficient towards the top of their power capability. Ie you'd WANT the generator to run at full power for a short period, rather than inefficiently 'idling' for longer like a typical narrowboat ends up doing.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

6 minutes ago, Tacet said:

That's interesting.  Using Canalplans standard settings, it's a 76 hour trip via the Richdale.   If the generator was running half that time, it's a fairly thirsty 2.5+litres per hour.

 

A standard-ish modern narrowboat might typically consume 1.5 litres per hour, or about 120 litres for a similar trip.  But the rate does shoot up if you are pushing on, I'm told.

for a 76h trip,

I’d have change left over from 100L of diesel. 
not much mind,

 

 

 

 

 

[magnetman]

18 minutes ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

if your gonna introduce that malarkey then you may as well draw straight from the main tank ? 

 

Not really. Main tanks due to their large size and the fact they usually have a lid which is opened when refuelling are going to be more prone to condensation, junk fuel or the dreaded Spider Diesel Infestation problem. 

 

There is also the ant colony issue which a lot of people don't know about. 

 

Ants wreck filters. 

 

So the idea is that you store big volume of diesel in a large tank and draw from a higher level to the day tank. 

 

Yes you might say that this is the same as drawing from the main tank which arguably it is but if the boat gets agitated the contents of the main tank can become mixed. 

 

This is why you fill the header tank in the mornings. It avoids the obvious ant problem. 

 

Do you understand it now ? 

 

 

 

 

I should clarify that the automatic refilling is in addition to the manual refilling in case someone forgets. 

 

 

 

It is a lot easier to get ants out of the bottom of a small tank which is at chest height than a large tank the bottom of which is by your feet. 

[dmr]

9 minutes ago, magnetman said:

 

Not really. Main tanks due to their large size and the fact they usually have a lid which is opened when refuelling are going to be more prone to condensation, junk fuel or the dreaded Spider Diesel Infestation problem. 

 

There is also the ant colony issue which a lot of people don't know about. 

 

Ants wreck filters. 

 

So the idea is that you store big volume of diesel in a large tank and draw from a higher level to the day tank. 

 

Yes you might say that this is the same as drawing from the main tank which arguably it is but if the boat gets agitated the contents of the main tank can become mixed. 

 

This is why you fill the header tank in the mornings. It avoids the obvious ant problem. 

 

Do you understand it now ? 

 

 

 

 

I should clarify that the automatic refilling is in addition to the manual refilling in case someone forgets. 

 

 

 

It is a lot easier to get ants out of the bottom of a small tank which is at chest height than a large tank the bottom of which is by your feet. 

 

No No No, diesel bug actually has nothing to do with Ants 😀😀😀

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

9 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Do you understand it now ? 

I am always wiser after your profound enlightenment Master Po 🙏🏻 

3 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

No No No, diesel bug actually has nothing to do with Ants 😀😀😀

…not the one’s in your pants 🙄