Swan Neck Question

[Marc Pyn]

Hi folks, 

After our last two navigations our swan neck which sits back, and appears to operate normally, can now be pulled forward which must have happened en route and seems like something has come apart. I'm wondering if anyone can identify what this is, as it's a different design than what I'vee seen before - photo attached.

 

If I pull the neck forward, (which I do very carefully as the whole section is very weighty) the spherical metal section vertically in the middle (with the grease nipple) rotates anticlockwise.

 

I haven't touched the bolt on the top, so I'm wondering if that is the first thing to look at, and I noticed there is some wobble /  when the boat is in motion which I know it can be bearings, but it's not had that behaviour before the last relatively short movement. I'm keen to get it identified and sorted while we are relatively local to a hire boat place with engineers around after reading some fellow forums members having theirs fall off while traveling so any info is much appreciated! It's a weighty arm and has been solid since we moved on last August and I'm hoping it may be resolved with the top bolt, and not need a dry dock, though Im keen to get a professional/ experienced insight before I touch anything as currently it appears to work fine at relatively cautious speeds.

 

Cheers.

Marc

[nicknorman]

If the point of rotation is more or less at the top, which it sounds like from your description, then the rudder has probably been lifted out of the bottom cup (on the skeg) and is dangling by the top bearing. Typically caused by catching it on a lock cill going down, or on some underwater obstruction.
 

Rudder would need to be lifted a bit and the bottom relocated into the cup on the skeg. Which is possible to do in the water, but not easily as it is very heavy (as you’ve noticed!) and you can’t see what you’re doing.

 

If you can find some clear water, have a look down the weed hatch to see if the rudder is moving sideways at the bottom.

Edited September 19, 2023 by nicknorman

[Tony Brooks]

It is possible that you have managed to get the bottom of the rudder stock out of the skeg. If so, very little is locating the bottom of the stock, so the swan neck will wave about and you get vibrations.

[bizzard]

If you have a hole at the top of the rudder blade hook you boat shaft pike hook into it to assist yanking it up to reseat it in the skeg cup, or a rope tied to the hole to lift it.  If you peer down the weed box you might be able to see if it's come of the skeg cup.  If it has come out that is, though it certainly seems like it.

[magnetman]

Its a nice design. Clever to put the bearing under a weatherproof cover. Not a lot of makers do that. Very common to see them exposed. 

 

Its either the top nut coming loose or the whole thing has been lifted out of the skeg cup as described above. 

 

 

 

Did you run over a motorbike under a bridge hole or something?

 

 

Of course it is possible but unlikely that there is a horizontal grub screw somewhere in the top round part which has come loose. It could be out of the picture. 

 

Depends how the base of the swan neck is fixed on. There are various different ways to do this. 

 

[springy]

Beware - it may have come out of the cup on the skeg, if so the nut will be supporting the whole rudder and undoing it may cause you to loose the rudder.

 

is the bottom of the swan neck slightly lower than it used to be ?

is the swan neck slightly off vertical 

 

My method for relocating requires two people - one facing forward,  bent under the tiller bar with the bar in the centre of their back and straighten their legs to lift the whole rudder/swan neck/tiller bar assembly and the other to move the swan neck  and rudder stock sideways and relocate in the cup.

As bizzard says you may be able to see the cup and rudder stock via the weed hatch which would confirm this and if a third person was available to observe while lifting they could guide the second person as to which way to move it.

 

springy

[Marc Pyn]

Thanks so much everyone. Would it be noticeable if it had come out while driving in terms of its ability to steer the boat? I definitely have t got it caught on the cill and I didn't notice hitting anything while moving to the mooring just before I noticed it, though it may well have happened when I was maybe going at more of a speed. After I'd noticed it wasn't fixed like it was before, and set off to the current location, from what I can tell there was no real difference when driving from normal operation and the boat responds as well as I remember, although I wasn't going over 15 with the occasional 20 on the straights, and there was a little bit of wobble in the tiller when over 15. The arm doesnt visibily sit any lower or isn't misaligned from the centre from what I can see, and in reply to the rotation if it's useful I can record a little video but to try and explain, it's the middle / cover section that's the only bit that moves and instead of it coming forward as I'd expect, it turns to the left as I move the neck forward (which obviously the neck or that cover shouldn't be able to do), and then back the other way to its starting position when I let the swan neck back to its seated position. I do know the boat mover I paid over a year ago got the boat caught on a cill going into a lock and that jammed the rudder / swan arm and had to get someone with a jack device to put it back in, but that was over 15 months ago and the steering mechanism has always felt very sturdy compared to our last boat which felt a lot lighter when steering (& definitely was due a bearing replacement) 😊

Edited September 19, 2023 by Marc Pyn

[magnetman]

If there has been a previous cilling incident I wonder if the bearing below the centre part was damaged. Is it possible the balls could have dropped out? This is assuming it is a ball race bearing and not a plain bearing. The greaser seems to imply it is a ball bearing. 

 

Have you tried pumping grease into it with a grease gun?

 

 

It seems plausible that when the cilling event and subsequent sorting out took place some damage to the bearing might have been covered up be ramming the whole thing full of a lot of grease which has now come out revealing the problem. 

 

 

 

One of my boats was originally fitted with a ball bearing at the top which over time failed and the balls fell out. It now flaps around a bit at the top but is not a big problem as one can still steer the boat. 

 

When I get a round tuit I'll probably fix a piece of nylon with the right size hole to it as don't like ball bearings for this job. 

 

 

[Marc Pyn]

12 minutes ago, magnetman said:

If there has been a previous cilling incident I wonder if the bearing below the centre part was damaged. Is it possible the balls could have dropped out? This is assuming it is a ball race bearing and not a plain bearing. The greaser seems to imply it is a ball bearing. 

 

Have you tried pumping grease into it with a grease gun?

 

 

It seems plausible that when the cilling event and subsequent sorting out took place some damage to the bearing might have been covered up be ramming the whole thing full of a lot of grease which has now come out revealing the problem. 

 

 

 

One of my boats was originally fitted with a ball bearing at the top which over time failed and the balls fell out. It now flaps around a bit at the top but is not a big problem as one can still steer the boat. 

 

When I get a round tuit I'll probably fix a piece of nylon with the right size hole to it as don't like ball bearings for this job. 

 

 

No idea mate, but I do know the locked rudder was sorted in a very short amount of time the following morning with a boat engineer with a jack who regularly did that sort of thing, and the steering worked normally again, and he set off, so I doubt any grease was added as part of it. I havent added any since but I certainly will do if that will help, and probably something I should've paid more attention too as part of the maintenance. 

[nicknorman]

28 minutes ago, Marc Pyn said:

Thanks so much everyone. Would it be noticeable if it had come out while driving in terms of its ability to steer the boat? I definitely have t got it caught on the cill and I didn't notice hitting anything while moving to the mooring just before I noticed it, though it may well have happened when I was maybe going at more of a speed. After I'd noticed it wasn't fixed like it was before, and set off to the current location, from what I can tell there was no real difference when driving from normal operation and the boat responds as well as I remember, although I wasn't going over 15 with the occasional 20 on the straights, and there was a little bit of wobble in the tiller when over 15. The arm doesnt visibily sit any lower or isn't misaligned from the centre from what I can see, and in reply to the rotation if it's useful I can record a little video but to try and explain, it's the middle / cover section that's the only bit that moves and instead of it coming forward as I'd expect, it turns to the left as I move the neck forward (which obviously the neck or that cover shouldn't be able to do), and then back the other way to its starting position when I let the swan neck back to its seated position. I do know the boat mover I paid over a year ago got the boat caught on a cill going into a lock and that jammed the rudder / swan arm and had to get someone with a jack device to put it back in, but that was over 15 months ago and the steering mechanism has always felt very sturdy compared to our last boat which felt a lot lighter when steering (& definitely was due a bearing replacement) 😊

Video will definitely help. Picture worth 1000 words etc. Often when people (with the best of intentions) try to describe something, they know exactly what they mean. But other people reading it, can form a different interpretation!

[Marc Pyn]

2 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Video will definitely help. Picture worth 1000 words etc. Often when people (with the best of intentions) try to describe something, they know exactly what they mean. But other people reading it, can form a different interpretation!

Sure, I'll get on that tomorrow and post it to see if it suggests anything further. 

[BWM]

I've seen a similar arrangement to that in the picture and it suffered from the same symptoms. It was mounted on a splined taper which had worn, allowing movement without actually slipping off the splines. 

 

[Marc Pyn]

Just now, BWM said:

I've seen a similar arrangement to that in the picture and it suffered from the same symptoms. It was mounted on a splined taper which had worn, allowing movement without actually slipping off the splines. 

 

Was that something that requires being out the water to view and rectify? 

[BEngo]

Have you had a spanner on the big nut at the top?  If that is loose, even slightly, the bottom boss of the  swan neck will wobble on the rudder stock.

 

As well as some video, a shot of the whole thing would be useful.  Brpoadside on, with tiller fitted, from about 6 ft away or as far back as you can get if the hedge is in the way.

 

N

[BWM]

12 hours ago, Marc Pyn said:

Was that something that requires being out the water to view and rectify? 

Not necessarily, but would depend on what the engineer doing the job thought on looking at the condition of what's left. 

[magnetman]

Splined taper is interesting. The two I have had apart on my boats were a D section socket and a plain machined taper. The latter did come loose but the effect was that the tiller itself moved without the rudder. Tightened up and it is fine. 

 

I guess if the tiller still moves the rudder it is more likely to be splines or possibly a grub screw somewhere. 

 

 

[Stroudwater1]

Its rather troubling that a boat mover managed to damage the rudder on a cill such that a jack was needed. That really shouldn't happen.

 

I cant help but wonder if this is related to the current situation. 

 

What was said (Or better still written ) when this incident took place? I wonder if the boat movers insurance needs to be looking at this, despite it being a while ago. Wriggly things insurance firms though. 

 

I know of some boat movers, who I  know would take care, but thats just really bad. 

 

 

[David Mack]

8 minutes ago, Stroudwater1 said:

Its rather troubling that a boat mover managed to damage the rudder on a cill such that a jack was needed. That really shouldn't happen.

Lifting the rudder shaft out of the cup is something that can happen to anybody if you bounce over some solid but unseen object on the bottom of the canal. If you are lucky it will drop straight back in, if not you have to lift the rudder and try to reposition it before lowering it down again. Rudders can be heavy, so you either use your back under the tiller arm, or if you have one available you can use a jack, which has the advantage of taking the weight while you try and find the correct position to lower it again. That is inevitably a hit and miss process, so having a jack to hand saves a lot of load on your back.

[magnetman]

15 hours ago, Marc Pyn said:

 I do know the boat mover I paid over a year ago got the boat caught on a cill going into a lock and that jammed the rudder / swan arm and had to get someone with a jack device to put it back in,

 

Sounds like the skeg may have been caught and bent upwards. 

[Stroudwater1]

5 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Lifting the rudder shaft out of the cup is something that can happen to anybody if you bounce over some solid but unseen object on the bottom of the canal. If you are lucky it will drop straight back in, if not you have to lift the rudder and try to reposition it before lowering it down again. Rudders can be heavy, so you either use your back under the tiller arm, or if you have one available you can use a jack, which has the advantage of taking the weight while you try and find the correct position to lower it again. That is inevitably a hit and miss process, so having a jack to hand saves a lot of load on your back.

 

 

It was more the mention of a cill that caused this to happen David that was the concern. That shouldnt really happen IMHO. 

[magnetman]

 

If that did happen it is plausible that the bearing, if it is a ball race type, was damaged and the balls have now fallen out. 

 

 

 

If there was enough weight/force to jam the thing up it seems possible the cast races on the bearing could have cracked. 

 

 

One would need to know where and how the jack was deployed to free it off.

 

 

If it was jammed thats not the same as just unshipping the rudder from the skeg cup. 

 

 

 

Of course it isn't obvious what is under the cover with the grease nipple. I'm assuming a ball bearing setup but then how would it be secured. It could just as easily be a bush. 

 

 

[Marc Pyn]

5 hours ago, BEngo said:

Have you had a spanner on the big nut at the top?  If that is loose, even slightly, the bottom boss of the  swan neck will wobble on the rudder stock.

 

As well as some video, a shot of the whole thing would be useful.  Brpoadside on, with tiller fitted, from about 6 ft away or as far back as you can get if the hedge is in the way.

 

N

I haven't got an adjustable big enough for the nut Bengo, but will have one available tomorrow

 

Took another snap with the tiller on & here's the video. - https://u.pcloud.link/publink/show?code=XZ5IKGVZHdTsSlFT8u5sXUrj1yn2sVC92poy 

 

I noticed it turns clockwise when pulling the neck forward instead anticlockwise, which i doubt makes any difference, but i wonder if it suggests the grubhead screw suggestion & that maybe one of two has come loose. 

 

The other thing that might be relevant to mention is when turning & putting it in reverse, there is always a fair amount of water that comes up through the rudder stock, which may have had more force on that recent move, so maybe that had dislodged something?

[Tracy D'arth]

Judging by the angle and placement of the grease nipple I reckon its a sleeve bearing not a ball race.

[PaulJ]

Ive come across a similar set up on an RW Davis boat.

The Top part (with grease nipple in on your set up) was tack welded on top of the rudder tube. Its basically just a hole through a beefy cap.. So the swan neck rotated inside it and not as your vid shows with it. Looks like as you turn it , it is catching so maybe the same setup- weld has sheared and is catching.

Have a look underneath the top bit to confirm if this is the case.

 

 

[Marc Pyn]

1 hour ago, Stroudwater1 said:

Its rather troubling that a boat mover managed to damage the rudder on a cill such that a jack was needed. That really shouldn't happen.

 

I cant help but wonder if this is related to the current situation. 

 

What was said (Or better still written ) when this incident took place? I wonder if the boat movers insurance needs to be looking at this, despite it being a while ago. Wriggly things insurance firms though. 

 

I know of some boat movers, who I  know would take care, but thats just really bad. 

 

 

It was a shock to get the initial phone call 2 days before we due to be getting our new home, & has played on my mind a few times since it happened tbh as i paid the £120/£150 cost of the jack engineer on top of the boat move as I was so relieved it was a 20 min fix after how anxious we all were about it (boat mover included) as we'd took out a couple of loans on top of selling our old boat.

 

The reason for it happening was the centre line breaking as he went into a lock, and it was too far away to jump on, so it clipped the cill, but (thankfully) he got it off in time. Apparently he walked it through the next few locks to braunston, where the engineer came out first thing with the jack. There was no mention that the centre line was frayed or that there was only one when setting off, and seeing how efficient he was going into the locks when i met up on the last stretch to give him a hand so he could get the last train, i could see why it could well have broken, and was something we wish we'd have known about as i could've just bought a couple of centre ropes from the marina that it was moored at, along with the rest of the necessary / requested itinerary. He was very good otherwise, & we got on really well when i met up, but one frayed rope going into so many locks single hande is not something i'd have considered going into a lock with, and i've been considering getting in touch as it seemed like something that should've been covered under the insurance he had. 

12 minutes ago, PaulJ said:

Ive come across a similar set up on an RW Davis boat.

The Top part (with grease nipple in on your set up) was tack welded on top of the rudder tube. Its basically just a hole through a beefy cap.. So the swan neck rotated inside it and not as your vid shows with it. Looks like as you turn it , it is catching so maybe the same setup- weld has sheared and is catching.

Have a look underneath the top bit to confirm if this is the case.

 

 

Thanks for all the info folks! Re weld, yes - thats what was happening before, so if that section is supposed to be welded underneath it does like like its come away slightly if i compare one side of the underneath to the other

Edited September 20, 2023 by Marc Pyn