Hi guys my girlfriend and me have just bought a 52ft david piper boat and we want to know which insulation to use

[harrybsmith]

What seems to have been overlooked by all is that the OP is after someone to do the work for them. This seems a perfectly logical request, however it should be stated that tradespeople on the canals basically don't exist. Of course there are a few, but it really doesn't work like owning a house where you ring up a builder and they'll come and do work for you expediently and reliably. 

[LadyG]

I already suggested he contact London boaters fb in order to find tradesmen.

He might be lucky.

 

[nicknorman]

I think it was just the sprayfoaming maybe to be done by a contractor, the rest done by themselves.

[MtB]

1 minute ago, nicknorman said:

I think it was just the sprayfoaming maybe to be done by a contractor, the rest done by themselves.

 

I was thinking the same, and to do this the whole of the interior of shell will have to be fully stripped out onto the towpath, then put back in again afterwards. 

 

Hopefully not just left there for CRT to clear up.

 

 

[magnetman]

This is perhaps why the CRT are removing bins. Too much trade waste going in. 

 

Flytipping is a criminal offence. 

 

Pay someone else with a transit pickup with dual towbar and plywood sides to do it. 

 

 

Living on a boat must be great. 

[LadyG]

I'd just go for Celotex and replacing some windows a la Kedian style, get a good stove installed by someone who knows about installation and fire safety .

 OP should be able to do nice tiling at his leisure.

The problem I have found is that most "tradesmen ' are not, they just happen to have done something similar on their own boat. Without fail they create another job, leave wires dangling, or don't notice some vital difficulty, leaving it for me to find some time in the future .

Edited September 12, 2023 by LadyG

[magnetman]

Just now, LadyG said:

"tradesmen '  .... or don't notice some vital artefact. 

 

What sort of artefact are you thinking of?

I agree with you but had not considered the artefacts. 

 

 

[MtB]

22 minutes ago, harrybsmith said:

What seems to have been overlooked by all is that the OP is after someone to do the work for them. This seems a perfectly logical request, however it should be stated that tradespeople on the canals basically don't exist. Of course there are a few, but it really doesn't work like owning a house where you ring up a builder and they'll come and do work for you expediently and reliably. 

 

Hmmm.... that's definitely not how it works around here. 

 

For example I need a new garage door on one of my rentals. Having tried to raise some interest in about six firms advertising themselves as garage door installers I eventually got a response from one. After a LOAD of good-natured nagging and chasing up they did me a quote which I accepted immediately and paid 50% deposit. Delivery? Eight weeks. 

 

Honestly bankside its getting just like on the canals! I too make myself bloody difficult to employ and they all just chase ever harder.

 

 

[LadyG]

22 hours ago, Mad Harold said:

The windows can be double glazed with polycarbonate or acrylic sheet held in place with magnetic tape or by gluing Velcro on the frame and around the edges of the plastic sheet.

I  think thats quite a good idea, could be supplemented with numerous curtains which are lined with insulating fabric and held close to the walls. 

Even at this time of year condensation  is  a problem, I had to light my fire yesterday, one of those very wet days more frequently encountered in winter.

 

It's difficult to tell if the new deckhead is near completion, he could have added some Thinsulate between layers, assuming  the new lining acts as a vapour barrier. 

I would not insulate the floor, just get the stove installed , cooker installed, insulate as best he can, and change the windows.

 

 

Edited September 13, 2023 by LadyG

[Sea Dog]

16 hours ago, harrybsmith said:

What seems to have been overlooked by all is that the OP is after someone to do the work for them.

What colour is the sky in a world where someone can buy a boat needing extensive work and then have that work done by 'tradesmen' and it work out less expensive than buying in commensurate condition in the first place? 

[LadyG]

34 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

What colour is the sky in a world where someone can buy a boat needing extensive work and then have that work done by 'tradesmen' and it work out less expensive than buying in commensurate condition in the first place? 

I think the boat looks like a good project, having been sold off by someone with rose tinted glasses, who paid £40K, passed on to another newby, but at  realistic price. A snip for someone with skills and experience , problem is OP is a newby, lives in London. 

 

 

Edited September 13, 2023 by LadyG

[JungleJames]

On 12/09/2023 at 19:30, cuthound said:

You could always make the windows smaller.

 

Kedian Engineering https://www.kedianengineering.co.uk/index.html @Martin Kedian do "inserts" which when welded into the existing window aperture can accommodate a porthole (or possibly a smaller rectangular window.

 

See photo below.

 

I'm sure this will go down well as a first post.

But, as someone who is/ was looking at filling in a couple of windows on a NB, and adding portholes, this thread sort of piqued my interest, considering how the OPs boat looks.

But, oh but, is the forum really advertising these inserts?

Having been lurking a while, just reading and perusing seemed enough, and I always thought this forum was full of good knowledge and ideas.

However, I now find myself questioning everything I have ever seen on here. People that always seemed quite sensible are now suggesting what can only be described, as a rather grim insert.

The whole thing looks rather grim, but, the securing of it? You'd have a load of bolts showing all over the cabin sides. I can't imagine how much of a mess it would look.

 

I trust the canals do have proper yards that can do proper work? Well, thankfully I know there are, but the more I look and read, the more it looks like there are perhaps 2 or 3 yards in the whole country you can rely on. I'm certainly not moving from the yard I have found and trust now.

I also trust this recommendation is an off day, and the decent yards and individuals that are mentioned on here shouldn't see it as a kiss of death?

I can just imagine this forum becoming the dreaded 'Vote of Confidence'.

 

OP, if you want to lose some windows, pay the money and get a real job done. Please.

 

 

[tyrone1990]

On 12/09/2023 at 20:23, LadyG said:

I think OP has quite a bit to do already on his project liveaboard, but from the earlier photos, it might be a good idea to have portholes at least in the bedroom, for privacy and to have a better control of temperature. My bedroom area is noticeably cooler than the windows area. 

One problem I find is that my portholes don't open, so the bed alcove does not have a through draught.

Luckily in the bedroom its just portholes, our bathroom will have a couple of portholes either side and then the living area and kitchen has the larger windows

I can live with the larger windows, I think we will install some shutters on the inside and have privacy that way and also that can provide a bit of insulation too!

On 12/09/2023 at 21:30, harrybsmith said:

What seems to have been overlooked by all is that the OP is after someone to do the work for them. This seems a perfectly logical request, however it should be stated that tradespeople on the canals basically don't exist. Of course there are a few, but it really doesn't work like owning a house where you ring up a builder and they'll come and do work for you expediently and reliably. 

I will be doing almost everything myself, I have experience in all trades, but insulation and carpentry are areas I dont have much experience in so this is the reason for me asking about the insulation needed and also as its a boat I was just wondering what is required to have a sufficient amount of insulation inside of a boat. It is different to having a flat/house as things are different and due to the very limited space, there is more focus on maximizing efficiency.

4 minutes ago, tyrone1990 said:

Luckily in the bedroom its just portholes, our bathroom will have a couple of portholes either side and then the living area and kitchen has the larger windows

I can live with the larger windows, I think we will install some shutters on the inside and have privacy that way and also that can provide a bit of insulation too!

I will be doing almost everything myself, I have experience in all trades, but insulation and carpentry are areas I dont have much experience in so this is the reason for me asking about the insulation needed and also as its a boat I was just wondering what is required to have a sufficient amount of insulation inside of a boat. It is different to having a flat/house as things are different and due to the very limited space, there is more focus on maximizing efficiency.

The insulation will be the only thing ill get done professionally, at £1800 for 25mm thickness for the 85 sqm internal area, the only issue is that the batons/studs need to be deeper so thats a job that needs doing first!

[David Mack]

9 hours ago, JungleJames said:

The whole thing looks rather grim, but, the securing of it? You'd have a load of bolts showing all over the cabin sides. I can't imagine how much of a mess it would look.

Why? You could fit the insert to the inside of the cabin plating, and attach it with countersunk machine screws. Dress the edge of the opening and tidy up with filler, and it need not be apparent this is bolted in.

Yes it's not the only way to do the job, but it doesn't need welding facilities at the boat nor the potential heat distortion of steel or heat damage to insulation etc., and could be installed by a competent DIYer.

[LadyG]

13 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Why? You could fit the insert to the inside of the cabin plating, and attach it with countersunk machine screws. Dress the edge of the opening and tidy up with filler, and it need not be apparent this is bolted in.

Yes it's not the only way to do the job, but it doesn't need welding facilities at the boat nor the potential heat distortion of steel or heat damage to insulation etc., and could be installed by a competent DIYer.

Agreed, as for it looking grim,  photo shows the insert, it's not fitted nor painted, with no actual portholes, ie its bare steel, needs to be primed and coated to fit with the rest of the boat.

Its not an advert for Kedian, it's pointing OP in the right direction to replace some of the large windows. 

Some boats have an industrial look where bolts and rivets would be appropriate, anyway.

[JungleJames]

11 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Why? You could fit the insert to the inside of the cabin plating, and attach it with countersunk machine screws. Dress the edge of the opening and tidy up with filler, and it need not be apparent this is bolted in.

Yes it's not the only way to do the job, but it doesn't need welding facilities at the boat nor the potential heat distortion of steel or heat damage to insulation etc., and could be installed by a competent DIYer.

I can't see how it is flush with the cabin sides. It looks like the panel has to stick out.

That's ignoring the fact the panel itself doesn't look upto much anyway, with screw holes not aligned etc etc. Although if you are securing it inside, you wouldn't want it to come with pre drilled holes anyway. You'd drill your own from the outside.

 

So, you have to hope it sits flush to the sides, which it doesn't look like it will.

Hope you get the screws to go in perfectly.

Bodge about with fillers around the edge, and over the screw holes, and hope that filler stays perfect.

Then, assuming the steel hasn't been prepped properly, you need to fully prep it (grit blast for a proper job) prior to painting (Or blasting followed by fillers). Hoping that the paint doesn't show up the fillers.

DIY?  Well yes, if you don't want a proper job done.

 

All to save a few quid over getting a decent welder to do a decent job.

Yep, I stand by my comment.

The panel itself doesn't look up to much (albeit some of the welds look quite neat), and it is designed as a cheap bodge job to avoid paying for a decent job.

This sort of thing, with the size of panels required, should be done at the same time as sending the boat in for a decent cabin paint job.

 

I suppose this explains why there are canal boats, and then there are canal boats. 

 

 

 

18 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Agreed, as for it looking grim,  photo shows the insert, it's not fitted nor painted, with no actual portholes, ie its bare steel, needs to be primed and coated to fit with the rest of the boat.

Its not an advert for Kedian, it's pointing OP in the right direction to replace some of the large windows. 

Some boats have an industrial look where bolts and rivets would be appropriate, anyway.

Rivets in the right place!

Not in such a way as to make it obvious what you have done, and definitely not ugly bolt heads.

Nope, David Mack had it right in that it needs to be countersunk screws. But even then. It's a bodge.

 

I also stand by the comment that it was promoting said solution. The comments seen on here about it.

Certainly is not pointing in the right direction. Well, unless a half ar*ed solution is the right direction.

 

But hey, a newbie coming on and disturbing the Apple cart was always going to get short shrift. Although I wonder how many keeping quiet are thinking the same as me?

 

Anyway, the OP has said he is happy. 

So the point is moot in this case. 

 

Onwards, as I've no wish to side track an interesting thread.

 

Apologies to the OP.

 

 

[MrsM]

12 minutes ago, JungleJames said:

I can't see how it is flush with the cabin sides. It looks like the panel has to stick out.

That's ignoring the fact the panel itself doesn't look upto much anyway, with screw holes not aligned etc etc. Although if you are securing it inside, you wouldn't want it to come with pre drilled holes anyway. You'd drill your own from the outside.

 

So, you have to hope it sits flush to the sides, which it doesn't look like it will.

Hope you get the screws to go in perfectly.

Bodge about with fillers around the edge, and over the screw holes, and hope that filler stays perfect.

Then, assuming the steel hasn't been prepped properly, you need to fully prep it (grit blast for a proper job) prior to painting (Or blasting followed by fillers). Hoping that the paint doesn't show up the fillers.

DIY?  Well yes, if you don't want a proper job done.

 

All to save a few quid over getting a decent welder to do a decent job.

Yep, I stand by my comment.

The panel itself doesn't look up to much (albeit some of the welds look quite neat), and it is designed as a cheap bodge job to avoid paying for a decent job.

This sort of thing, with the size of panels required, should be done at the same time as sending the boat in for a decent cabin paint job.

 

I suppose this explains why there are canal boats, and then there are canal boats. 

 

 

 

I really don't agree with you. Welding in steel sheet to replace large bus windows would, I expect, involve considerable stripping out of the interior in the window area to prevent heat damage to panels, insulation etc. This would not be a straightforward job that could be undertaken during a typical repaint as far as I am aware. Not an issue with a shell but very tricky with a fitted boat. I think the Kedian insert panels would be straightforward to fit and would look amazing when painted.

[LadyG]

21 minutes ago, JungleJames said:

I can't see how it is flush with the cabin sides. It looks like the panel has to stick out.

That's ignoring the fact the panel itself doesn't look upto much anyway, with screw holes not aligned etc etc. Although if you are securing it inside, you wouldn't want it to come with pre drilled holes anyway. You'd drill your own from the outside.

 

So, you have to hope it sits flush to 

I suppose this explains why there are canal boats, and then there are canal boats. 

 

 

 

OP wants to move in a few weeks, he does not have the required skills ie Welding , Lpg gas fitting Boat electrics

background  knowledge.

I think he is trying to fit out the boat on rhe canalside rather than finding a boat yard willing to do his work as a priority.

Painting is something that can be done any time. A proper professional job requires a painting slot, and thats not going to happen next week.

He wants to have foam insulation,  instead of doing it himself with Celotex or Kingspan and if he does that then he can't weld new panels. He does not have a base for a skip, so really, he does not want a lot of rubbish.

He needs to get the stove fitted, the electrics sorted and decide whether to change the windows now or shutter them temporarily with Celotex and curtains.

As stated previously the work involved will probably take three to five months.

Edited September 14, 2023 by LadyG

[MtB]

9 minutes ago, MrsM said:

Kedian insert panels would be straightforward to fit and would look amazing when painted.

 

Yep. Looks like we have a "Taste Nazi" in our midst, telling us they look shyte. It's all a matter of opinion, in my opinion.

 

Like you I think they look great!

 

 

 

 

[David Mack]

32 minutes ago, JungleJames said:

I can't see how it is flush with the cabin sides. It looks like the panel has to stick out.

That's ignoring the fact the panel itself doesn't look upto much anyway, with screw holes not aligned etc etc. Although if you are securing it inside, you wouldn't want it to come with pre drilled holes anyway. You'd drill your own from the outside.

 

So, you have to hope it sits flush to the sides, which it doesn't look like it will.

Hope you get the screws to go in perfectly.

Bodge about with fillers around the edge, and over the screw holes, and hope that filler stays perfect.

Then, assuming the steel hasn't been prepped properly, you need to fully prep it (grit blast for a proper job) prior to painting (Or blasting followed by fillers). Hoping that the paint doesn't show up the fillers.

DIY?  Well yes, if you don't want a proper job done.

 

All to save a few quid over getting a decent welder to do a decent job.

Yep, I stand by my comment.

The panel itself doesn't look up to much (albeit some of the welds look quite neat), and it is designed as a cheap bodge job to avoid paying for a decent job.

This sort of thing, with the size of panels required, should be done at the same time as sending the boat in for a decent cabin paint job.

 

I suppose this explains why there are canal boats, and then there are canal boats. 

 

 

 

Rivets in the right place!

Not in such a way as to make it obvious what you have done, and definitely not ugly bolt heads.

Nope, David Mack had it right in that it needs to be countersunk screws. But even then. It's a bodge.

 

I also stand by the comment that it was promoting said solution. The comments seen on here about it.

Certainly is not pointing in the right direction. Well, unless a half ar*ed solution is the right direction.

 

But hey, a newbie coming on and disturbing the Apple cart was always going to get short shrift. Although I wonder how many keeping quiet are thinking the same as me?

 

Anyway, the OP has said he is happy. 

So the point is moot in this case. 

 

Onwards, as I've no wish to side track an interesting thread.

 

Apologies to the OP.

 

 

You seem to be missing the point of the Kedian insert. It is designed specifically so that it can be installed in an existing lined out boat, with minimal disruption to adjacent material, and without the need for hot processes. Of course its a compromise, and of course there are other ways of doing the job. But that doesn't mean it isn't a suitable option in some cases.

 

And anyone thinking every boat alteration job should involve grit blasting back to bare metal and never using filler is living in cloud cuckoo land!

Edited September 14, 2023 by David Mack

[JungleJames]

17 minutes ago, MrsM said:

I really don't agree with you. Welding in steel sheet to replace large bus windows would, I expect, involve considerable stripping out of the interior in the window area to prevent heat damage to panels, insulation etc. This would not be a straightforward job that could be undertaken during a typical repaint as far as I am aware. Not an issue with a shell but very tricky with a fitted boat. I think the Kedian insert panels would be straightforward to fit and would look amazing when painted.

Never said would normally be carried out during a typical repaint.

I said would be done at the same time as repainting. 2 birds with one stone.

 

Anyways. As you were. We shall agree to disagree, and crack on with what the thread is about.

 

[Peanut]

Looking at the window inserts, it seems to me that they are fitted with the window in a sunken panel, and could be fixed from the inside or outside, bedded on a thin butyl tape.  From the inside, there would be no rim exposed on the outside, just a narrow line of sealant out of direct view. Though care would be needed to dress the cabin edge carefully.

 

The OP says he needs to fit thicker battens to allow for the insulation.  It looked in the photograph that the battens were secured to the frames, which would give enough room, and I wondered why this was necessary.  If needed, he could just double them up over the existing ones.

[LadyG]

I assumed he would double up  existing battens, but to be honest I would get on with the current insulation, accept its only one inch, if he insulates the roof and fits shutters and insulated curtains that should work. A solid fuel stove will keep the boat toasty in winter, the insulation is to prevent  condensation and subsequent rusting,

I'd just get the insulation done ASAP , get the stove and the cooker installed. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

1 hour ago, LadyG said:

He needs to get the stove fitted, the electrics sorted

This ^^^. I took a lined sailaway, which was in a much more advanced state of completion than this boat and needed a lot less work to make it habitable. The nights are drawing in and the temperature is dropping. I started work around this time of year and foolishly said I'd serve Christmas dinner on it, so it had to be basically habitable for guests by that point. Working week day evenings and weekends around a full time job, it was a struggle and getting heating, lighting and mains power became a top priority, just to see what I was doing and not freeze. Especially when sleeping on the sofa overnight, before going to the day job the next morning.

Christmas dinner was served and no one froze to death, so I succeeded. It wasn't for another four months before I moved aboard full time.

[dmr]

2 hours ago, LadyG said:

Agreed, as for it looking grim,  photo shows the insert, it's not fitted nor painted, with no actual portholes, ie its bare steel, needs to be primed and coated to fit with the rest of the boat.

Its not an advert for Kedian, it's pointing OP in the right direction to replace some of the large windows. 

Some boats have an industrial look where bolts and rivets would be appropriate, anyway.

Bolt on porthole panels can look reasonably good, but they really only work on a certain style of boat, usually an older industrial/tug style thing painted in red oxide etc etc.

There are lots of boats with welded up windows showing an obvious outline, saw one only yesterday, and they look naff. Maybe a top welder could do an invisible job but I have never seen one 😀