Advice Please !

[A A Matthews]

What is the legal position regarding the purchase of a used boat from  a registered yard that has broken down a number of times and only travelled 15 miles down the canal! I feel the seller has some responsibility for selling an unreliable vessel . Boat was surveyed and engine was working in the yard but is it a case of ‘buyer beware’?

[MtB]

5 minutes ago, A A Matthews said:

What is the legal position regarding the purchase of a used boat from  a registered yard that has broken down a number of times and only travelled 15 miles down the canal! I feel the seller has some responsibility for selling an unreliable vessel . Boat was surveyed and engine was working in the yard but is it a case of ‘buyer beware’?

 

Used goods are usually purchased "as seen", unfortunately AFAIK. 

 

Two points:

 

1) If you tell the boatyard about your troubles they might do something to help or compensate you out of goodwill but I don't think they have any legal responsibility to, unless there was a specific warranty offered or built into the contact.

 

2) Never pay attention to legal advice from a plumber.

 

 

 

P.S. what breakdowns have you suffered and what would you like the boatyard to do about them? 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

12 minutes ago, A A Matthews said:

Boat was surveyed and engine was working in the yard but is it a case of ‘buyer beware’?

 

There are many 'types' of survey from Hull only to Hull and gear, to 'everything' (including the checking of the engine oil chemistry by sending it to a lab)

 

What survey did you have ?

Its unlikely but you may have some comeback on the surveyor if he did not check and point out problems for anything you asked him to check.

 

Who was the seller ?

If the yard was simply acting as a broker for the seller (a private individual) then you have no come back on either the broker or the seller, UNLESS they specifically told you something was fully functional which turned out to be  lie. (can you prove it ?)

 

If the seller was a business who owned the boat then you have a much greater recourse to law.

 

We need more details to be able to advise you.

[MtB]

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

If the seller was a business who owned the boat then you have a much greater recourse to law.

 

Possibly, but I think the extent of it is the sales literature, description and everything the seller tells the buyer needs to be accurate. Nothing more. No right to 'change your mind' or any of that tosh that comes with distance selling or buying something new. 

[LadyG]

If the boat was owned by the boatyard and was sold in their capacity as a business,  then your position is stronger than if the boatyard was acting as a broker, that is to say another person owned the boat.

If the boat was sold as seen, and you handed over the money with little or no paper trail, and you did not have a survey, then your position is less secure.

Have a think about this, if purchasing from a business in the course of his business, then you expect it to be "fit for purpose"

What do you want to do? Get your money bac,k or get the boat sorted?

Edited August 16, 2023 by LadyG

[MtB]

1 minute ago, LadyG said:

If the boat was owned by the boatyard and was sold in their capacity as a business,  then your position is stronger than if the boatyard was acting as a broker, that is to say another person owned the boat.

 

Go on then, in what way?!

 

(Other than ways already mentioned!)

 

 

 

[robtheplod]

24 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Go on then, in what way?!

 

(Other than ways already mentioned!)

 

 

 

Doesn't the Sale of Goods act apply then?   Fit for purpose and all that?!

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, robtheplod said:

Doesn't the Sale of Goods act apply then?   Fit for purpose and all that?!

 

Nope. 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

Possibly, but I think the extent of it is the sales literature, description and everything the seller tells the buyer needs to be accurate. Nothing more. No right to 'change your mind' or any of that tosh that comes with distance selling or buying something new. 

 

No, the purchase of any goods from a business (retailer) , even 2nd hand goods are covered under the 2015 Consumer Rights Act.

 

The Consumer Rights Act gives you the legal right to either get a refund for goods that are of unsatisfactory quality, unfit for purpose or not as described, or get it repaired  - depending on how long you've owned it:

• 0-30 days: You can claim a full refund for goods that are of unsatisfactory quality, unfit for purpose or not as described. 
• 30 days-six months: You must give the retailer one opportunity to repair or replace it before you can claim a refund.
• Six months or longer: You must give the retailer one opportunity to repair or replace it before you can claim a partial refund, and the burden of proof is on you to prove the product is faulty.

If you'd prefer a repair or replacement in the first 30 days you can ask the retailer, but it cannot refuse to give you a refund.

The 30 day right to a refund doesn't apply to products you've bought as downloads - such as music, games or apps. You can, however, ask for a digital product to be repaired or replaced if it develops a fault. And if this isn't possible, or unsuccessful, you have the right to get a price reduction - which could be the full amount you paid. 

The 30 day period is shorter for perishable goods, and will be determined by how long it is reasonable to have expected the goods to last. For example, milk would be expected to last until its use-by date, as long as it’s stored correctly.

 

 

 

Did you buy it from a private seller?

When you buy from an individual (as opposed to a retailer), the Consumer Rights Act says that the goods you get must be as they were described to you by the seller.

There's no obligation on the seller to disclose any faults, but misrepresenting goods isn't allowed.

For example, something second-hand should not be described as new. If it is, the seller will be in breach of contract.

 

 

 

34 minutes ago, robtheplod said:

Doesn't the Sale of Goods act apply then?   Fit for purpose and all that?!

 

Nope - the Sale of goods act has been replaced by the Consumer Rights Act 2015

Edited August 16, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[ditchcrawler]

Is this the Dutch barge that you posted about before?

[blackrose]

51 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Nope. 

 

 

 

Care to elaborate or would that just be another "Nope"? 

Edited August 16, 2023 by blackrose

[MtB]

1 minute ago, blackrose said:

 

Care to elaborate or would that just be another "Nope"? 

 

Anyway, although you sound certain I think you're wrong.

 

Yawn.

 

I refer you to Alan's post following mine, for an answer.

 

 

[Quattrodave]

Hmmmm perhaps it's more a case of 'user error' as opposed to 'mechanical error'...

[howardang]

Sorry to be a wet blanket, but as you will have noticed, asking for a view on a legal  boating subject on this forum always generates a number of answers from well meaning members , few, if any I suspect are actually  in the legal profession,  some views differing from others and usually with no firm conclusion one way or another (and after a period these type of questions inevitably lead to topic drift away from the issue which actually concerns you. I would suggest that if you need legal advice which might lead to more formal action, a forum is the last place to get it. You really need to get a proper legal opinion, not a number of views, opinions and counter opinions, none of which will be sufficient to form a basis for you to take any action.

 

Howard

[David Mack]

11 hours ago, A A Matthews said:

Boat was surveyed and engine was working in the yard

Did you choose and engage the surveyor? Or was that all sorted by the boatyard? In other words, was the surveyor independent of the seller?

What did the survey report actually say about the engine? The surveyor may have seen the engine running for a short period, but he won't have given it any sort of extended test.

 

11 hours ago, A A Matthews said:

has broken down a number of times and only travelled 15 miles down the canal!

What exactly happens when the engine breaks down? If this has happened a number of times then you have clearly got it restarted again a number of times too, so there may not be that much wrong, and it might be a relatively easy fix.

Given what has occurred, what do you actually want out of the situation? The engine repaired? Money off the price you paid? Cancel the purchase and return the boat for a full refund? An amicable resolution or your day in court?

Unless you tell us more about the problem and what you want out of the situation nobody here can give you anything more than vague general advice.

[Barneyp]

If you did purchase the boat from a business, rather than from a private individual through a business acting as a broker, you may have a right to a refund or repair depending on how the boat was described.

According to  the Consumer Rights Act it needs to be "of satisfactory quality,  fit for purpose and as described".

 

So if it was described as "as knew condition" "good condition" "in good working order", then you are entitled to a repair or refund.

 

If it was sold as "a project" "suitable for restoration" "needs new engine", then you are not going to be entitled to a repair or refund.

 

In reality the description is likely to be somewhere in between the two sets of examples I have given, and just because you may have a legal right to a refund or repair doesn't mean it will be easy to get one.

 

I'd speak to the yard politely and see if they are willing to put the faults right, it may be a simple fix.

 

If the yard won't cooperate and you want to take it further then you need professional advice, just because are legally entitled to something doesn't mean it will be easy to get it.

 

 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

I find it interesting that the OP has not clarified if the yard was acting as a broker for a private seller or a sale in the course of trade. The same applies to the lack of any further information about exactly what these breakdowns are. It is almost as if he does not want his beliefs challenged.

[Lily Rose]

29 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I find it interesting that the OP has not clarified if the yard was acting as a broker for a private seller or a sale in the course of trade. The same applies to the lack of any further information about exactly what these breakdowns are. It is almost as if he does not want his beliefs challenged.

 

His post was made 13 hours ago and he appears not to have visited since then. Given that, he is presumably currently unaware of any follow-up questions raised.

[mrsmelly]

33 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I find it interesting that the OP has not clarified if the yard was acting as a broker for a private seller or a sale in the course of trade. The same applies to the lack of any further information about exactly what these breakdowns are. It is almost as if he does not want his beliefs challenged.

He may be at work or something?

[BWM]

2 hours ago, Lily Rose said:

 

His post was made 13 hours ago and he appears not to have visited since then. Given that, he is presumably currently unaware of any follow-up questions raised.

I should imagine they've been asleep, possibly followed by rushing off to work..give 'em a chance. 

 

To the O.P.

If you haven't already had the brush off from the seller, be patient and polite and it is likely you will receive a better outcome. 

Edited August 17, 2023 by BWM

[Lily Rose]

3 hours ago, BWM said:

 

...give 'em a chance. 

 

 

 

That's basically what I meant.

 

It's now been 20 hours since he visited. He probably has other stuff to do that stops him visiting the forum a dozen times a day. Once a day is enough, perhaps more than enough.

 

 

Edited August 17, 2023 by Lily Rose

[ditchcrawler]

I do wonder it this is the elderly Dutch barge he was discussing in another thread that I think his daughter bought, but I may have that bit wrong.

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, Lily Rose said:

 

That's basically what I meant.

 

It's now been 20 hours since he visited. He probably has other stuff to do that stops him visiting the forum a dozen times a day. Once a day is enough, perhaps more than enough.

 

 

 

He asked for advice and was given it with certain qualifications that needed clarifying and he does not bother to come back and check. Either he wants help or he does not, so it looks to me as if the advice is far from urgently wanted. For whatever reason, ignoring his answers for nearly a day now seems a bit rude to me - how long does it take just to type "thanks" and click the submit button.

[MtB]

21 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I do wonder it this is the elderly Dutch barge he was discussing in another thread that I think his daughter bought, but I may have that bit wrong.

 

Ah now that would make sense. I was thinking if I were stuck somewhere on a boat that keeps breaking down and posted a question on here about it, I'd be back here looking for answers every 30 minutes.

 

But if the boat were not actually mine, I wouldn't be so keen for advice.

 

 

[howardang]

55 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

He asked for advice and was given it with certain qualifications that needed clarifying and he does not bother to come back and check. Either he wants help or he does not, so it looks to me as if the advice is far from urgently wanted. For whatever reason, ignoring his answers for nearly a day now seems a bit rude to me - how long does it take just to type "thanks" and click the submit button.

I agree that this is an example of, at best, bad manners, but I’m afraid that it may just be another example of sheer bad manners which are becoming more and more common these days. 
 

Howard

Edited August 17, 2023 by howardang