Liverpool boats

[uncle nick]

Hi all, as we’re still looking for our first boat, I just wondered what’s the general opinion of Liverpool Boats?

I’m aware they’re in operation, so I guess that’s a good thing but what about the boats they built in the mid 1990’s, steel quality etc?

Thanks

[Ewan123]

25 minutes ago, uncle nick said:

Hi all, as we’re still looking for our first boat, I just wondered what’s the general opinion of Liverpool Boats?

I’m aware they’re in operation, so I guess that’s a good thing but what about the boats they built in the mid 1990’s, steel quality etc?

Thanks

We've got one that was built in 2003, doing perfectly well. You'll hear people scorn Liverpool Boats (and as I understand it there was some justification originally), but for a second hand boat more than a few years old, how it's been treated/maintained over the last couple of decades is more significant than the initial build really. If it has survived 20/30 years and a survey shows it to be in good condition, that's a pretty good boat as far as I'm concerned.

[system 4-50]

If you ever want to sell then bonk, bonk, you won't sell to people like me who wouldn't consider a Liverpool boat under any circumstances, no matter bonk, bonk, how good the references.  But there are not many people like me! (Wimbledon)

Edited July 15, 2023 by system 4-50

[Barneyp]

1 hour ago, uncle nick said:

Hi all, as we’re still looking for our first boat, I just wondered what’s the general opinion of Liverpool Boats?

I’m aware they’re in operation, so I guess that’s a good thing but what about the boats they built in the mid 1990’s, steel quality etc?

Thanks

Opinions vary, some wouldn't touch them, to others they are perfectly reasonable boats.

On a mid 90's boat the quality of the original steel is irrelevant, if the boat hasn't been looked after the steel will be paper thin, if it has been maintained and regularly blacked or even coated in epoxy 2 pack paint it could be in very good condition.

The original build quality must have been OK because it's still around and presumably floating.

If your budget dictates that you are looking at boats of that age condition is more important than the original builder, and a good condition Liverpool boat will probably be better value than a similar priced boat from a more sought after or well respected builder, as you will be paying a premium for the builders name even though that may not be reflected in the actual condition of the boat.

[RichM]

We had a 55ft Liverpool semi-trad, built in 2001. I kept her regularly maintained but would rarely go all out and would use standard bitumastic blacking etc. Despite this, she had a hull survey just before I sold her which suggested the condition of the hull to be very good. I had no problems with the hull in the 5 years I had owned her. 

 

She was berthed next to a 2005 60ft Aqualine and I'd often compare the two while they were side by side while sat at the stern with a cider or two. The difference in terms of build quality was immense. The Aqualine was a work of art in comparison, with thicker steel plating and better quality welding joins etc. Would I get another Liverpool boat? Probably not, but I have no regrets about the one I had.  

 

For me it's like comparing Kettle chips crisps with Walkers. Both are good but ultimately you still get what you pay for. 

[uncle nick]

Thanks to all for the replies. So not a million miles from Springer territory then? 🙄

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, uncle nick said:

I just wondered what’s the general opinion of Liverpool Boats?

I’m aware they’re in operation,

 

Do you mean the company is still operating ?

 

 

[BEngo]

Liverpool boats are not extant.  They have ceased building.  Collingwood have sort of metamorphosed out of them.

 

Like many budget builds, All Liverpool boats come with foibles, which need to be checked on purchase.  A decent surveyor will know these.

 

The worst is the as-built  arrangement of the rudder and stock.  The top bearing can only be easily replaced out of the water and the blade to stock connection is poor, relying on pinch bolts and a through bolt.  Many Liverpools have had this sorted.  Others  need it doing.

 

N

 

 

[uncle nick]

1 minute ago, BEngo said:

Liverpool boats are not extant.  They have ceased building.  Collingwood have sort of metamorphosed out of them.

 

Like many budget builds, All Liverpool boats come with foibles, which need to be checked on purchase.  A decent surveyor will know these.

 

The worst is the as-built  arrangement of the rudder and stock.  The top bearing can only be easily replaced out of the water and the blade to stock connection is poor, relying on pinch bolts and a through bolt.  Many Liverpools have had this sorted.  Others  need it doing.

 

N

 

 

Ah, thanks for that, I thought they were still trading. 
I’ll pay particular attention to the rudder if we go any further with this boat. 

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, BEngo said:

Like many budget builds, All Liverpool boats come with foibles, which need to be checked on purchase.  A decent surveyor will know these.

 

Like the variable width gunwales deep one on one side and one almost non-existant on the other side), or

Yes, the boat is 6' 10" wide where ever you measure it, but being shaped like a banana it will not fit in a 7' wide lock.

etc etc

 

Strating from a very low quality base, Liverpool boats went into further decline when alloy wheels became the norm & stealing car hub-caps became impossible for the scouses.

Edited July 15, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

Liverpool boats became Collingwood boats, they were at the cheaper end of the market, a bit like the Model T Ford, they afforded lots of people to get on the Canal system. They were bread and butter boats and there’re still thousands of them on the system today. Built with the same steel as many other builders and many builders used their shells. Have it surveyed and you should be ok, most of the remedial work and any problems would of been sorted out by now. If they fall within your budget don’t dismiss them just because of what people say, all builders have had problems with after sales incurring fettling work, just that Liverpool built far more boats than any of them.

Edited July 15, 2023 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[Tracy D'arth]

Integral water tanks, rudders that break free, banana hulls, front and rear bulkheads not square, dangerous steps off back deck, missing welds, interiors built of MDF, no insulation in roof. 

 

General poor quality but cheap and still floating if you can stand the horrible roof shape.

[Tonka]

1 minute ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Integral water tanks, rudders that break free, banana hulls, front and rear bulkheads not square, dangerous steps off back deck, missing welds, interiors built of MDF, no insulation in roof. 

 

General poor quality but cheap and still floating if you can stand the horrible roof shape.

Liverpool not Legend, the op said

[MtB]

1 hour ago, BEngo said:

Like many budget builds, All Liverpool boats come with foibles, which need to be checked on purchase.  A decent surveyor will know these.

 

Yes, foibles like leaking windows (for no extra charge).

 

When I worked at Thames and Kennet Marina 25 years ago, one in three of the Liverpool boats we sold would come back shortly after delivery with the owner complaining the windows leaked.

 

Last week I was doing a bit of work on a two year old Collingwood (fixing the leaking calorifier) and the owner was pissed off with it for a number of reasons including leaking windows. 

 

You'd think after 25 years of building bargain basement boats they'd at least have figured out how to fit windows that don't leak, but apparently not. 

 

 

 

Edited July 15, 2023 by MtB
Clarify.

[BEngo]

17 minutes ago, Tonka said:

Liverpool not Legend, the op said

Leg Ends were an order of magnitude worse than any Liverpool.

 

N

[blackrose]

1 hour ago, uncle nick said:

Thanks to all for the replies. So not a million miles from Springer territory then? 🙄

 

Having owned both a Springer and a 2005 Liverpool Boat I'd say they are a million miles from Springer.

29 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Yes, foibles like leaking windows (for no extra charge).

 

When I worked at Thames and Kennet Marina 25 years ago, one in three of the Liverpool boats we sold would come back shortly after delivery with the owner complaining the windows leaked.

 

Last week I was doing a bit of work on a two year old Collingwood (fixing the leaking calorifier) and the owner was pissed off with it for a number of reasons including leaking windows. 

 

You'd think after 25 years of building bargain basement boats they'd at least have figured out how to fit windows that don't leak, but apparently not. 

 

 

My 18 year old Liverpool Boat has never suffered from leaky windows. 

44 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

General poor quality but cheap and still floating if you can stand the horrible roof shape.

 

Yes terrible boats...

 

1 hour ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

Liverpool boats became Collingwood boats, they were at the cheaper end of the market, a bit like the Model T Ford, they afforded lots of people to get on the Canal system. They were bread and butter boats and there’re still thousands of them on the system today. Built with the same steel as many other builders and many builders used their shells. Have it surveyed and you should be ok, most of the remedial work and any problems would of been sorted out by now. If they fall within your budget don’t dismiss them just because of what people say, all builders have had problems with after sales incurring fettling work, just that Liverpool built far more boats than any of them.

 

A reasonable response. Since LB have put more boats on the water than just about any other builder they must have been doing something right and one would also expect to hear about more problems reported. 

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Like the variable width gunwales deep one on one side and one almost non-existant on the other side), or

Yes, the boat is 6' 10" wide where ever you measure it, but being shaped like a banana it will not fit in a 7' wide lock.

etc etc

 

Strating from a very low quality base, Liverpool boats went into further decline when alloy wheels became the norm & stealing car hub-caps became impossible for the scouses.

 

For a knowledgeable bloke you do talk a lot of nonsense sometimes Alan.

Edited July 15, 2023 by blackrose

[reg]

More than happy with my 2005 Liverpool Shell has stood the test of time. Had an issue with size of cooling tank which was fixed no quibble as soon as surveyor it pointed out. Apart from that no real quibbles.

I believe they were turning out a huge number of boats all based on fairly standard design with some options. 

Damn good value, there did seem to be a bit of boat snobbery about them at the time  so what decent  enough she'll at a competitive price.

Maybe others didn't have as good an experience don't know I can only say I'm happy with my choice 28 years later.

[Mrs Bearwood Boster]

If it's 2005-I make that 18 years later.

Ours is 2004 & we've had her from new.She has her little oddities but is a cracking boat for the money.

[uncle nick]

Thanks again for all the replies. 
I’m trying to sort the wheat from the chaff; is it fair to say that general wisdom is:

Liverpool Boats were built in large numbers, at a reasonable price, and enabled those who couldn’t afford ‘premium’ boats, to buy a basic no-frills boat as an entry-level narrowboat? They may be better standard than Springers, almost certainly better than Legend Boats (that I haven’t heard of) but build quality is now rather of a secondary consideration to how well (or not) they’ve been maintained over the subsequent years?

There also appears to be a huge amount of make, or marque, snobbery, perpetuated by those with enough money to look down upon anyone who can’t afford a premium narrowboat, or looking at it from another point of view, maybe just more money than sense. 

Thanks again to all the genuine narrowboaters for your replies and help. Hope to meet you sometime and I’ll buy you a pint! 

 

[MtB]

1 hour ago, uncle nick said:

They may be better standard than Springers, almost certainly better than Legend Boats (that I haven’t heard of) but build quality is now rather of a secondary consideration to how well (or not) they’ve been maintained over the subsequent years?

 

 

That pretty much sums it up. (Not that I've heard of Legend Boats either until now!). 

 

Build quality new was shyte but the point is provided you buy one quite a few years old, all the crappy build problems will usually have been ironed out by the owners in the interim.  Stuff like leaking windows (a big deal if you have them!), dodgy gas installations, wiring problems, all the paint falling off etc etc will have been fixed and if not, will seem like less of a problem on a ten year old second hand boat rather than new. 

 

 

[Up-Side-Down]

9 hours ago, MtB said:

 

 

That pretty much sums it up. (Not that I've heard of Legend Boats either until now!). 

 

Build quality new was shyte but the point is provided you buy one quite a few years old, all the crappy build problems will usually have been ironed out by the owners in the interim.  Stuff like leaking windows (a big deal if you have them!), dodgy gas installations, wiring problems, all the paint falling off etc etc will have been fixed and if not, will seem like less of a problem on a ten year old second hand boat rather than new. 

 

 

Would this be 'Ledgard Boats'?

[BEngo]

11 minutes ago, Up-Side-Down said:

Would this be 'Ledgard Boats'?

NO!  Ledgard were good boats.

 

N

 

 

[Tracy D'arth]

Whos' were the boats from Morocco that were covered in filler which fell off in sheets? 

[Francis Herne]

Compared to Springers they're of much more standard construction, with thicker steel and wear edges on the chines. Also much younger on average. A Liverpool boat that's been cared for might still have a fairly solid hull, which will be true for very few Springers that haven't had significant work done.

 

Springers were actually put together quite well, it's the design that causes problems as they get older (I wouldn't say it's a bad design either, just trade-offs).

[Mad Harold]

20 hours ago, system 4-50 said:

If you ever want to sell then bonk, bonk, you won't sell to people like me who wouldn't consider a Liverpool boat under any circumstances, no matter bonk, bonk, how good the references.  But there are not many people like me! (Wimbledon)

What's with the 'bonk bonk'

You're not having sex while writing this post are you? 😘