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To compost or not to compost - The long read


Dr Bob

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10 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

 

 

 

2052566570_Screenshot2023-01-09at09_54_49.png.e72e94258bf474765ec5e45baaabf226.png

 

Above is an extract from the ISO 16929 test method (EU standard) for the temperatures that have to be used when doing the fragmentation test for industrial composting. The temperatures are deemed by the standards body to represent what happens in an industrial Windrow compost heap (but that's another story).

In our lab test we have units similar to the mini hot bins operating for the 12 weeks of the test at this temperature. Everything that is used by industrial composters is fully composted after 12 weeks at these temperatures - note most of them avoid anything man made like cups, plates, wet wipes even if they are stamped compostable.

 

These temps CANNOT be sustained in a small uninsulated box. You can achieve them easily in an insulated 50-100L box but only if you feed them regularly ie twice a week. This is the basis of the mini-hot bin. Go to their web site and see how they work. They do work on boats but you need to feed them kitchen waste as you wont have enough poo to feed them so you then end up with loads of great compost - but what then do you do with it. Our 120L a year is fine for our pots but I guess with a hot bin you'd make over 300L a year. Keeping the temp up at these levels is easy with a hot bin.

 

For us mere mortals trying to compost smaller quantities ie 20-40L in an uninsulated box, you will never achieve any real temperature rise, so using the boat roof as a radiator between April and October is the answer to get the material up to 50-60°C to assist in killing the pathogens (along with time) - see the humanmanure book. Hence the 6-9 months compost time depending on season. You also do need to get the water content right and turn it regularly - once a month - when its on the roof.

I am assuming my compost picks up water the ground? Or is from the plant matter I put in ? It seems to work but over 9 months as I said earlier 

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12 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

 

 

 

2052566570_Screenshot2023-01-09at09_54_49.png.e72e94258bf474765ec5e45baaabf226.png

 

Above is an extract from the ISO 16929 test method (EU standard) for the temperatures that have to be used when doing the fragmentation test for industrial composting. The temperatures are deemed by the standards body to represent what happens in an industrial Windrow compost heap (but that's another story).

In our lab test we have units similar to the mini hot bins operating for the 12 weeks of the test at this temperature. Everything that is used by industrial composters is fully composted after 12 weeks at these temperatures - note most of them avoid anything man made like cups, plates, wet wipes even if they are stamped compostable.

 

These temps CANNOT be sustained in a small uninsulated box. You can achieve them easily in an insulated 50-100L box but only if you feed them regularly ie twice a week. This is the basis of the mini-hot bin. Go to their web site and see how they work. They do work on boats but you need to feed them kitchen waste as you wont have enough poo to feed them so you then end up with loads of great compost - but what then do you do with it. Our 120L a year is fine for our pots but I guess with a hot bin you'd make over 300L a year. Keeping the temp up at these levels is easy with a hot bin.

 

For us mere mortals trying to compost smaller quantities ie 20-40L in an uninsulated box, you will never achieve any real temperature rise, so using the boat roof as a radiator between April and October is the answer to get the material up to 50-60°C to assist in killing the pathogens (along with time) - see the humanmanure book. Hence the 6-9 months compost time depending on season. You also do need to get the water content right and turn it regularly - once a month - when its on the roof.

Interesting thank you.

 

I think this is the real issue with compost bogs, they have been sold as a easy alternative to pump outs or cassettes, in reality they require work, which I am sure becomes routine eventually but that initial learning curve is steep.

 

They are not for me tbh but for the right person they obviously are a good alternative 

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1 minute ago, doratheexplorer said:

An interesting post, Dr.

 

I know a bit about composting (but clearly not as much as you).  I'm content that composting successfully is possible on a boat and that everything you say is correct.

 

The problem is that for the average boater, it's very easy to get it wrong and any consideration of human behaviour would suggest that encouraging most composting loos will lead to unpleasant human faeces being put in bins (a bag of shit is still a bag of shit even if it's not as bad as a bag of shit and pee).  The only possible way forward is to have dedicated emptying points for this material, which is then taken away to be composted properly.  This still leaves 2 problems:

 

1.  Who pays for that?

2. What happens when the solid matter is inevitably contaminated with urine by an idiot boater?

 

I do agree with what you are saying but I am not suggesting everyone changes to separating toilets with composting on their boats. Exactly what you say will happen. The reason for posting on here is that there is so much aggression towards this toilet type that it appears as bad, illegal, the devil - and that needs balancing out. Those people who can compost successfully (and that is everyone if they put some effort into it) will have a much superior form of toilet for their boats.

During last  summers crawl around the network, we were moored up at Red Bull filling up with water when two old dears turned up. She was mid 80's, driving her 90 year old looking hubby with his trolly with cassette towards the Elsan. Their boat wasnt in sight so they must have been dragging this casssette for at least 15 mins (the speed they were going) and you could see it was a struggle. God knows how he would have lifted it up to the Elsan. Anywho, that didnt matter as the elsan was blocked and out of order. I suggested to Mrs Battleaxe they may want to consider as separating toilet. "Oh no, their illegal, you should be locked up". I swiftly withdrew. If anyone would benefit with this type of toilet it was those two, but no, poisoned by the words we here on here. What a shame!

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10 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I am assuming my compost picks up water the ground? Or is from the plant matter I put in ? It seems to work but over 9 months as I said earlier 

Your water is coming from the water in the stuff you put in, or rain ingress afterwards.

My experience of composting in the garden was that the heap always got too dry but I didnt have a clue what was needed.

Water is needed as the  bugs 'swim' in the water to get to the food. The compost has to be in the ball park of the right 'wetness'. Too dry and the  bugs cant get to the food, too wet and the air doesnt get in and you start to get anearobic decomposition. In the lab we measure water content as per the test schedule using scientific meters. The way to do it in the field is to pick up a handfull of compost and squeeze it. If it drips it is too wet, if it doesnt drip it is too dry - ok extreme - but you are looking for something just in between. In practise, I never add water but if a box on the roof was looking a bit wet, I just leave the lid off for a few hours on a hot day. Its not really that important but you dont want the compost bone dry or swimming in water.

15 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

Interesting thank you.

 

I think this is the real issue with compost bogs, they have been sold as a easy alternative to pump outs or cassettes, in reality they require work, which I am sure becomes routine eventually but that initial learning curve is steep.

 

They are not for me tbh but for the right person they obviously are a good alternative 

Agreed.

It becomes a very easy routine but with no need for any hardware maintenance.

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34 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Your water is coming from the water in the stuff you put in, or rain ingress afterwards.

My experience of composting in the garden was that the heap always got too dry but I didnt have a clue what was needed.

Water is needed as the  bugs 'swim' in the water to get to the food. The compost has to be in the ball park of the right 'wetness'. Too dry and the  bugs cant get to the food, too wet and the air doesnt get in and you start to get anearobic decomposition. In the lab we measure water content as per the test schedule using scientific meters. The way to do it in the field is to pick up a handfull of compost and squeeze it. If it drips it is too wet, if it doesnt drip it is too dry - ok extreme - but you are looking for something just in between. In practise, I never add water but if a box on the roof was looking a bit wet, I just leave the lid off for a few hours on a hot day. Its not really that important but you dont want the compost bone dry or swimming in water.

Agreed.

It becomes a very easy routine but with no need for any hardware maintenance.

The bins are lidded, they sit on the earth so my thought was water from the earth and the green stuff in the bin,  whatever its working so I ain't concerned. 

I am glad that you are proving that composting on the move works and works well. 

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I just saw a large bag of something by a dog waste bin. It is reasonably close to an area where people moor boats for the winter.

 

I wonder what the local councils view on this would be. It was far too big to get into the bin itself. Black bag with a dark coloured shaped module of what looked like organic material. 

 

I suppose it might have been drugs but firstly it was not in an inner city location and secondly it was by a dog bin. 

 

It was not a dog . 

 

Someone is going to have to take it away at some stage. 

 

Bearing in mind what dog bins are used for do we think this an acceptable way to dispose of boater compost? 

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6 minutes ago, magnetman said:

I just saw a large bag of something by a dog waste bin. It is reasonably close to an area where people moor boats for the winter.

 

I wonder what the local councils view on this would be. It was far too big to get into the bin itself. Black bag with a dark coloured shaped module of what looked like organic material. 

 

I suppose it might have been drugs but firstly it was not in an inner city location and secondly it was by a dog bin. 

 

It was not a dog . 

 

Someone is going to have to take it away at some stage. 

 

Bearing in mind what dog bins are used for do we think this an acceptable way to dispose of boater compost? 

You don't know what it is as you haven't opened it! 

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2 minutes ago, peterboat said:

You don't know what it is as you haven't opened it! 

 

The bag was open. I did not investigate closely but am having some problems thinking about what else it may have been. 

 

I suppose it could have been drugs. It might be quite a good way to throw people off the scent. Am on train now and not back in the area for a few days so it will probably be gone. 

 

Can you think of anything else someone might leave by a dog bin? 

 

 

Black bag, open topped so one could see in it. My first thought was a flower pot had been emptied out but there is no reason to leave the contents of an emptied flowerpot beside a dog bin in a black bag. 

 

Whoever put it there was aware that dog bins contain materials of a sensitive nature. 

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Dr Bob, Thank you for an interesting read.

You are confirming what Peter and others have long said - that separating toilets and proper composting work when a moderate amount of effort is put into carrying out the process properly, and you have the space on board or on land to store the waste while it is turning into compost.

But amongst the boater fraternity there is a sizeable number who don't want to pay to have pump outs emptied and don't want to be frequently handling and emptying cassettes in dirty elsan facilities. Far too many of that mindset are going to be equally unwilling to handle their compost properly. Bagging and binning raw waste is unacceptable, but any wider infrastructure to collect toilet waste and treat it properly will cost money that too many boaters are unwilling to pay. A shame there is no clear route to encouraging responsible compost toilet operation while discouraging the bag-n-binners.

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2 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Dr Bob, Thank you for an interesting read.

You are confirming what Peter and others have long said - that separating toilets and proper composting work when a moderate amount of effort is put into carrying out the process properly, and you have the space on board or on land to store the waste while it is turning into compost.

But amongst the boater fraternity there is a sizeable number who don't want to pay to have pump outs emptied and don't want to be frequently handling and emptying cassettes in dirty elsan facilities. Far too many of that mindset are going to be equally unwilling to handle their compost properly. Bagging and binning raw waste is unacceptable, but any wider infrastructure to collect toilet waste and treat it properly will cost money that too many boaters are unwilling to pay. A shame there is no clear route to encouraging responsible compost toilet operation while discouraging the bag-n-binners.

That's the problem in a nutshell! Those same people will also dump cassette contents into hedge bottoms or canals! I wish there was an easy route but no matter what legislation is implemented a minority will ignore it

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1 hour ago, magnetman said:

 

The bag was open. I did not investigate closely but am having some problems thinking about what else it may have been. 

 

I suppose it could have been drugs. It might be quite a good way to throw people off the scent. Am on train now and not back in the area for a few days so it will probably be gone. 

 

Can you think of anything else someone might leave by a dog bin? 

 

 

Black bag, open topped so one could see in it. My first thought was a flower pot had been emptied out but there is no reason to leave the contents of an emptied flowerpot beside a dog bin in a black bag. 

 

Whoever put it there was aware that dog bins contain materials of a sensitive nature. 

I often see bags of general rubbish left by dog bins

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22 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

The correct mix of "greens" and "browns" helps too - a pile of just grass clippings is never going to give a healthy compost heap.  Try adding some plain brown cardboard - no tape and no printed shiny boxes - occasionally. 

 

 

 

That was official CRT advice for a while which is why some people started doing it. 

 

The excrement really hit the air conditioning when CRT said everyone had to stop doing this at three day's notice!

 

 

 

Perhaps Biffa gave CaRT the same short notice.

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If nobody is emptying the bins you can get into quite a shitty situation very quickly. 

 

I'm a little surprised there have not been more issues with the CRT bins over the yars while the residential load has gradually increased. 

 

At some point they will work it out and start charging for it. 

 

One does wonder sometimes what sort of obligations the CRT actually have in this regard. They aren't the EA

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3 hours ago, peterboat said:

That's the problem in a nutshell! Those same people will also dump cassette contents into hedge bottoms or canals! I wish there was an easy route but no matter what legislation is implemented a minority will ignore it

 

The question with composting toilets -- indeed, any toilets -- on canal boats is how big this minority is nowadays -- if it is a minority... 😉

 

Before CART changed the rules the majority of composting toilet boaters (not Peter or Dr. Bob) bag'n'binned the waste. Presumably quite a few have subsequently removed the toilets, but if others haven't got the time or inclination or facilities or space to compost properly or dispose of the waste legally, what do they do now?

 

I agree with Dr. Bob and Peter that used properly a composting toilet is an excellent idea, and no more disgusting than most of the other ways of dealing with poo on a boat, probably less so than some.

 

However responsible people who do this and (correctly) promote composting toilets as a great idea often seem to assume that everyone else is as conscientious as them, and this is obviously not the case... 😞

Edited by IanD
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2 hours ago, magnetman said:

One does wonder sometimes what sort of obligations the CRT actually have in this regard.

None I think. But it has long been regarded as a 'good thing' for CRT and BW before them to provide basic rubbish facilities and emptying points for elsan bucket and cassette toilets (although pump out emptying has alway been mainly provided by private sector operators). 

Abuse of CRT rubbish and elsan facilities has always been a problem, with facilities being used by local residents, motorhomers and other non-boaters who don't contribute to the cost of providing and maintaining the facilities. BW/CRT have tried putting facilities behind doors locked with CRT keys, but the keys are easy enough to get hold of, the doors/gates are often left unlocked and in some cases the locks have been broken. Start charging for the facilities and not only do you have an expensive payment and enforcement task, but also a lot more fly tipping.

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29 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

The question with composting toilets -- indeed, any toilets -- on canal boats is how big this minority is nowadays -- if it is a minority... 😉

 

Before CART changed the rules the majority of composting toilet boaters (not Peter or Dr. Bob) bag'n'binned the waste. Presumably quite a few have subsequently removed the toilets, but if others haven't got the time or inclination or facilities or space to compost properly or dispose of the waste legally, what do they do now?

 

I agree with Dr. Bob and Peter that used properly a composting toilet is an excellent idea, and no more disgusting than most of the other ways of dealing with poo on a boat, probably less so than some.

 

However responsible people who do this and (correctly) promote composting toilets as a great idea often seem to assume that everyone else is as conscientious as them, and this is obviously not the case... 😞

On facebook groups I would suspect composting loos are getting more popular than before? I have read now on many occasions about them being fitted, now whether they are used correctly I dont know I tell everybody that bagging and binning isnt allowed and is specifically banned by CRT! Now I have gone through my process of disposal with them to what effect I have no idea but I doubt many will have a garden or allotment to correctly get rid of the waste

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5 hours ago, Mike Todd said:

Perhaps Biffa gave CaRT the same short notice.

 

I don't know, but it's possible.

 

After the wailing and gnashing of teeth about the very short notice given in February,  CRT extended it to the end of December 2021 but asked everyone to try not to bag-n-bin if possible during that period.

 

It's a definite no-no now, has been for over a year.

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50 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

I don't know, but it's possible.

 

After the wailing and gnashing of teeth about the very short notice given in February,  CRT extended it to the end of December 2021 but asked everyone to try not to bag-n-bin if possible during that period.

 

It's a definite no-no now, has been for over a year.

 

BWML (as a division of C&RT) were informed by BIFFA that they could not accept bins with 'human waste' in them - this was at least 2 years in advance of C&RTs decison to ban composters 'output' in their bins,

Presumably BWML would have discussed this with C&RT before they came out with the new policy that no boats fitted with composting toilets would be accepted in BWML marinas.

 

I don't know if I've still got the email that came out to all moorers from BWML - it would have been around 2015/16.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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On 09/01/2023 at 17:16, peterboat said:

On facebook groups I would suspect composting loos are getting more popular than before? I have read now on many occasions about them being fitted, now whether they are used correctly I dont know I tell everybody that bagging and binning isnt allowed and is specifically banned by CRT! Now I have gone through my process of disposal with them to what effect I have no idea but I doubt many will have a garden or allotment to correctly get rid of the waste

 have no powers to ban anything from being put in their contractors bins. 

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10 minutes ago, waterworks said:

 have no powers to ban anything from being put in their contractors bins. 

Of course they do, if the contract specifies that no human poo is allowed to go in the bins unless in nappy form that's it! CRT has to tell us its customers that we can't put it in the bins! Its contract law pure and simple, between the bin company and CRT we dont enter into it

Edited by peterboat
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8 minutes ago, waterworks said:

 have no powers to ban anything from being put in their contractors bins. 

Maybe, but the contractor can refuse to empty bins if the waste contains proscribed rubbish, eventually withdrawing from the contract, so it's in CRTs interest to "ban" human fecal waste

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