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Electrification of CRT Broad and Wide Locks.


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2 hours ago, frangar said:

I always only open one gate on a wide lock…and rarely touch when entering or leaving.

 

Yes they all say that, then when they do hit the mitre (soft wet wood against hard steel rubbing strake) they say "That's the first time I've done that".
"Rarely" suggests you've sometimes  - you only need to open the other one a bit. 

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3 minutes ago, Midnight said:

 

Yes they all say that, then when they do hit the mitre (soft wet wood against hard steel rubbing strake) they say "That's the first time I've done that".
"Rarely" suggests you've sometimes  - you only need to open the other one a bit. 

I think gates leaking from where boats touch the mitre is the least of the issues….gates covered in weed growth, leaking plank joints, broken/leaking paddles, brickwork voids etc are far more of an problem.
 

Perhaps it’s best if boats don’t move at all…locks should just be a water feature for cyclists to admire. 

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5 minutes ago, frangar said:

I think gates leaking from where boats touch the mitre is the least of the issues….gates covered in weed growth, leaking plank joints, broken/leaking paddles, brickwork voids etc are far more of an problem.
 

Perhaps it’s best if boats don’t move at all…locks should just be a water feature for cyclists to admire. 

Fill in the canals, linear housing on spare land, 2ft wide duck channel/water transfer with flat bridges every hundred yard to stop idiot paddleboarders. Cycle lane one side footpath other side. Locks to remain in place and  be converted to picnic areas with interpretation boards. You could fill the lock in almost to the top and lawn the inside. Just keep a foot or so of the edging around the top for effect.

 

Regents canal can be the first one to go. What a nice park that would be for the locals to use.

Edited by magnetman
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Just now, magnetman said:

Fill in the canals, linear housing on spare land, 2ft wide duck channel/water transfer with flat bridges every hundred yard to stop idiot paddleboarders. Cycle lane one side footpath other side. Locks to remain in place and  be converted to picnic areas with interpretation boards.

 

Regenets canal can be the first one to go. What a nice park that would be for the locals to use.

It’s already started…look at Pavo down in London…it’s the future of marinas…..

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14 minutes ago, magnetman said:

If you only open the other gate a little bit it will often be drawn against the side of the boat anyway as you leave the lock.

The lock gates are so stiff up here they wouldn't move if you hit them with an oil tanker

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47 minutes ago, oboat said:

So to get back to the point of the original question! 

Which locks do you feel could benefit most from such an installation & why?

 

TBH I don't think there are ANY locations where this is beneficial for the reason stated, as in to make sure both gates are open

 

There is no particular location where lock gates are getting disproportionately scraoed or clobbered as a result of only opening one gate.

 

The leak due to scraping is easy to fix, the leak due to clobbering less so. If a gate is ONLY leaking through the scrape on the mitre it's doing okay, leaks under and round gates are a bigger problem generally. 

 

If CRT are of a mind to encourage bpaters to open both gates they should do exactly that - years ago BW changed policy to closing gates behind you and it now gets nearly 100% compliance - widely promote a policy of opening both gates and in 5 to 10 years there will be widespread compliance. 

 

Paradoxically mechanised locks might be most beneficial in long flights such as Wigan and Caen Hill, but the potential for disruption when they fail is also greatest here, any one lock in the flight failing would cause problems. 

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8 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

 

TBH I don't think there are ANY locations where this is beneficial for the reason stated, as in to make sure both gates are open

 

There is no particular location where lock gates are getting disproportionately scraoed or clobbered as a result of only opening one gate.

 

The leak due to scraping is easy to fix, the leak due to clobbering less so. If a gate is ONLY leaking through the scrape on the mitre it's doing okay, leaks under and round gates are a bigger problem generally. 

 

If CRT are of a mind to encourage bpaters to open both gates they should do exactly that - years ago BW changed policy to closing gates behind you and it now gets nearly 100% compliance - widely promote a policy of opening both gates and in 5 to 10 years there will be widespread compliance. 

 

Paradoxically mechanised locks might be most beneficial in long flights such as Wigan and Caen Hill, but the potential for disruption when they fail is also greatest here, any one lock in the flight failing would cause problems. 

I can agree with most of that although you could put your arm through the rubbed-off / clobbered part of the mitres at Cooper Bridge. I can't understand why the gates these days are not made with a vertical channel down the centre of the mitres where a harder material fillet could be attached and replaced without needed to replace the whole gate. 

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10 hours ago, oboat said:

Please read the question again and add approx to 14ft Then provide a constructive response.

 

It would be closer to all the narrowest Thames lock "approximately 15'" than it would be to call it "approximately 14'".

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1 hour ago, Midnight said:

...I can't understand why the gates these days are not made with a vertical channel down the centre of the mitres where a harder material fillet could be attached and replaced without needed to replace the whole gate. 

I've often thought just this, but i'd imagined something like rubber or ABS-type material. Or even at a pinch a long flap of something like car inner tube material to bridge the gap, would require gates shut in a particular order though.

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12 hours ago, oboat said:

Marsworth top lock colander struck me as a good candidate for consideration! 

 

 

 

A (much!) much cheaper first option at Maffers top would be to excavate all the debris from the voids that the gates should swing back into.  It is not at all unusual for a pair of breasted boats to wedge firmly between the bottom gates when entering the lock to go uphill.  Electrification wouldn't sort that!

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2 hours ago, Midnight said:

I can agree with most of that although you could put your arm through the rubbed-off / clobbered part of the mitres at Cooper Bridge. I can't understand why the gates these days are not made with a vertical channel down the centre of the mitres where a harder material fillet could be attached and replaced without needed to replace the whole gate. 

I **thought* that many such gates have a sacrificial wooden strip - I have certainly encountered situations where CaRT staff have been re-profiling (planing) to reduce water loss. On other occasions I have seen a stoppage notice that indicates a new strip being fitted when there is nothing left to adjust.

 

Other locks (narropw and wide) have a rubber-like strip 'nailed' to the join. Alas, I have also had to cope with the situation when it has started to tear away!

Edited by Mike Todd
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3 hours ago, magnetman said:

Fill in the canals, linear housing on spare land, 2ft wide duck channel/water transfer with flat bridges every hundred yard to stop idiot paddleboarders. Cycle lane one side footpath other side. Locks to remain in place and  be converted to picnic areas with interpretation boards. You could fill the lock in almost to the top and lawn the inside. Just keep a foot or so of the edging around the top for effect.

Sounds like sections of the Rochdale and Huddersfield were before restoration!

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Of course one must not forget that the bottom of the gate is held in place by a pot and pintle arrangement, the pivot point. Once these start wearing out (especially the pot) the mitre seal will be in the wrong place and the gates will leak.

 

I'm not sure if pot replacement is still done regularly or if this is overlooked in favour of using a power tool to reprofile the mitre faces.

 

They do eventually split apart if not replaced.

 

The GU pots are rectangular iron about 4.5 x 3.5 inch with a 2 inch hole in the centre for the pintle. Not that much to play with as the round hole starts going oval with wear.  I've had broken ones out with the magnet before now and also well worn ones which have obviously been replaced.

 

 

 

Edited by magnetman
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10 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

So if you come to a wide lock with both gates open and a boat already in the lock do you hit the other boat or go between them and the wall?

If both gates are wide open damage to the face of the mitre is unlikely 

6 hours ago, Mike Todd said:

I **thought* that many such gates have a sacrificial wooden strip - I have certainly encountered situations where CaRT staff have been re-profiling (planing) to reduce water loss. On other occasions I have seen a stoppage notice that indicates a new strip being fitted when there is nothing left to adjust.

 

Other locks (narropw and wide) have a rubber-like strip 'nailed' to the join. Alas, I have also had to cope with the situation when it has started to tear away!

Interesting not seen that up here. Sometimes like at Battyford CRT fix strips of what looks like 3 x 2 to the inner side of the gates.

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It could just be water erosion due to misaligned gates caused by dodgy collar straps or worn mounting bearings/pots.

 

It could well be nothing to do with boats.

 

CRT and more interestingly BW do have a long and illustrious history of blaming boaters for maintenance failures over time.

 

The best one of these, which must have been devised by a seriously clever person, is the instruction to close all the gates.

 

It is a real classic. If gates are left open you get dry pounds and people moan and start wondering about why this would happen on a properly maintained canal system. Do a campaign and get people to close gates and you can at the same time reduce the maintenance and get away with it for a while. That is until it all gets too obvious.

 

 

Edited by magnetman
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The thing I notice on the K&A is there seems to be no relationship between the ease with which a level is achieved and the degree of mitre wear on the bottom gates. 

 

There are some here with 3" wide wear holes in the mitres that make a level quickly and easily, and some with no visible wear the take an absolute age. 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, pedlar said:

Top of our list for mechanisation/electrification would be Fall Ings Wakefield.

We can just about manage the bottom gates but not for much longer I fear.

I can't understand why Fall Ing wasn't elecrified in the first place the others downstream were. I find the bottom right side gate tough but not a bad as it used to be. Maybe it's the porridge I have for breakfast now or maybe technique? I now push my feet against that concrete thing with my back to the beam. It's the self-opening top gates that get my goat now especially when single handed.

Edited by Midnight
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On 29/11/2022 at 09:28, magnetman said:

If you automate the gates so that they open fully without an operator you introduce the risk of crushing anyone who falls in between the gate and the lockside. This is why the system on powered locks requires an operator to be holding the button down and it would not be appropriate to enable full opening with operator not present.

 

I think some locks in France might be fully automatic but the French do have a completely different attitude to H&S to the British.

 

 

 

 

It isn't normal in France to even get off the boat when working the lock, there is a siren and flashing light when the gate starts to move, no balance beam to knock the unwary over and an emergancy stop which halts everything.

image.jpeg.ef6b05b5151174dc4ae7aa7afc9c3e23.jpeg

Edited by Phoenix_V
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On 29/11/2022 at 12:22, Mike Todd said:

I **thought* that many such gates have a sacrificial wooden strip - I have certainly encountered situations where CaRT staff have been re-profiling (planing) to reduce water loss. On other occasions I have seen a stoppage notice that indicates a new strip being fitted when there is nothing left to adjust.

 

Other locks (narropw and wide) have a rubber-like strip 'nailed' to the join. Alas, I have also had to cope with the situation when it has started to tear away!


Ive always thought similar and also witnessed either the planing or replacing of the mitres on gates.

And it’s surely the simplest and most cost effective way of dealing with the problem? If it’s dealt with before a 6” gap is developed. 
 

19 hours ago, magpie patrick said:

t happens on narrow locks - is that due to canoes using only one gate? 


..or Narrowboats pushing the gates open?

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