Why are CRT licensing and mooring separate from each other?

[tats]

Why are CRT licensing and CRT mooring separate from each other?  As a customer, one tends to think that they are one and the same, that, say, if you informed CRT that you had sold your boat and was leaving the canal, then that would be that. But actually you have to tell licensing and then also mooring. It seems strange that they are so separate. Why are they so separate? Is perhaps mooring not actually a Trust and is actually privately owned? I don't know, just a guess. But why are they so separate. It is as though they don't communicate between themselves, as would be the case with two separate companies. 

[haggis]

While all.licences come under the C&RT umbrella ( if you are on a C&RT waterway) most moorings are in private marinas.  

[john6767]

Personally I would have thought that they have to be separate or else it would create an unfair advantage over other mooring operators.  They should be two separate organisations.

[tats]

Well, I informed CRT that I'd sold my boat and was canceling my account. I noticed that my refund was short. The reason it seemed was that I'd only told CRT licensing, so my mooring was left running. CRT mooring told me this and said that even though I'd informed licencing I still had to inform mooring. Well, this seems unfair. They should be able to see that i had informed CRT in June, and that should be good enough for them to refund me from then. To me, CRT is CRT. They should make it very clear that they are soooo separate. It seems very harsh. There is CRT Licensing and then CRT Mooring. It is misleading when they use the same, one, telephone number. I feel conned.

 

I am soooo glad i am off the canal. I was moored on farmland mooring opposite the tow path. Why should I pay a mooring fee to CRT when i have already paid to have my boat on the water anywhere on the CRT water. Why do I have to give CRT licensing two months notice? Why do I have to give CRT mooring one month notice? For what? Why? I wasn't on a CRT mooring. What a rip off it feels. Horrible. Soooo glad I'm off and to know I am not paying them any more money ever again. It was the feeling of being ripped off with the mooring fee that motivated me to leave. Now, I suppose i'm quids in and they are quids down. It took a jolt to leave. The canal kinda gets a hold of you. Now with the cost of living crisis, well it's got to hit the CRT. I will not be the only one. My pal went, too, same reason. Great to get to the point where i think, actually, I don't need this at all, why am I paying this money.  So in this way I feel great. There is not a day I don't think how lucky I was to find the escape velocity

[Rob-M]

Only 1 month notice, that is better than all the marinas we have used which have all been 3 months notice.

 

I don't understand why you were paying CRT moorings anything if you were on a farm mooring or were you paying the CRT fee rather than the mooring operator paying it?  I would have expected the mooring owner to be paying the fees to CRT.

[Alan de Enfield]

31 minutes ago, tats said:

Why do I have to give CRT licensing two months notice? Why do I have to give CRT mooring one month notice?

 

If you didn't read the contract terms and conditions before commencing the two contracts then it is all your own fault.

Had you read the contract T&Cs you'd have been fully aware of the period of notice and could have refused the contract at that time and found a mooring elsewhere, or, taken your boat off C&RT waters completely and not had to pay a licence fee at all.

[PeterF]

The licensing and mooring are separate, what happens if someone sells their boat but are buying another, but there is some time between the sale and purchase but they still want the moor for the new boat. They are 2 separate things, selling a boat does not necessarily mean that you no longer need the mooring.

[MtB]

12 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

If you didn't read the contract terms and conditions before commencing the two contracts then it is all your own fault.

Had you read the contract T&Cs you'd have been fully aware of the period of notice and could have refused the contract at that time and found a mooring elsewhere, or, taken your boat off C&RT waters completely and not had to pay a licence fee at all.

 

Yeahbut its SO UNFAIR to have to read stuff you sign and agree to before signing and agreeing to it, in Snowflake World.

 

 

[Arthur Marshall]

22 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

Only 1 month notice, that is better than all the marinas we have used which have all been 3 months notice.

 

I don't understand why you were paying CRT moorings anything if you were on a farm mooring or were you paying the CRT fee rather than the mooring operator paying it?  I would have expected the mooring owner to be paying the fees to CRT.

I've always been on farm moorings, and always paid a mooring fee to CRT (well, since they invented it about 25 years ago). The justification is that your licence lets you cruise, but the mooring fee lets you park up on their water for longer than the 14 days concession. Farm moorings get charged at what CRT consider half the going equivalent CRT mooring rate, which in my case is twice what I pay the farmer, much to my disgruntlement. I think they just make up a figure, to be honest.

Marinas just include this in what they charge you and make a bulk payment to CRT.

[David Schweizer]

4 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I've always been on farm moorings, and always paid a mooring fee to CRT (well, since they invented it about 25 years ago). The justification is that your licence lets you cruise, but the mooring fee lets you park up on their water for longer than the 14 days concession. Farm moorings get charged at what CRT consider half the going equivalent CRT mooring rate, which in my case is twice what I pay the farmer, much to my disgruntlement. I think they just make up a figure, to be honest.

Marinas just include this in what they charge you and make a bulk payment to CRT.

 

Not all mooings against private land incur a C&RT mooring fee. It depends upon the deeds applicable to the land.

[GUMPY]

5 minutes ago, David Schweizer said:

 

Not all mooings against private land incur a C&RT mooring fee. It depends upon the deeds applicable to the land.

And whether the land owner has done a deal with cart. My old mooring was subject to a BW fee as well as the landowners fee until the landowner did a deal with BW that he paid the BW fee at a discount and charged us.  I hear he us buying the ransom strip from cart, it will be interesting to see  if he still has to pay them after that.

[Chris John]

1 hour ago, tats said:

Well, I informed CRT that I'd sold my boat and was canceling my account. I noticed that my refund was short. The reason it seemed was that I'd only told CRT licensing, so my mooring was left running. CRT mooring told me this and said that even though I'd informed licencing I still had to inform mooring. Well, this seems unfair. They should be able to see that i had informed CRT in June, and that should be good enough for them to refund me from then. To me, CRT is CRT. They should make it very clear that they are soooo separate. It seems very harsh. There is CRT Licensing and then CRT Mooring. It is misleading when they use the same, one, telephone number. I feel conned.

 

I am soooo glad i am off the canal. I was moored on farmland mooring opposite the tow path. Why should I pay a mooring fee to CRT when i have already paid to have my boat on the water anywhere on the CRT water. Why do I have to give CRT licensing two months notice? Why do I have to give CRT mooring one month notice? For what? Why? I wasn't on a CRT mooring. What a rip off it feels. Horrible. Soooo glad I'm off and to know I am not paying them any more money ever again. It was the feeling of being ripped off with the mooring fee that motivated me to leave. Now, I suppose i'm quids in and they are quids down. It took a jolt to leave. The canal kinda gets a hold of you. Now with the cost of living crisis, well it's got to hit the CRT. I will not be the only one. My pal went, too, same reason. Great to get to the point where i think, actually, I don't need this at all, why am I paying this money.  So in this way I feel great. There is not a day I don't think how lucky I was to find the escape velocity

I guess you didn’t read the T&C’s then

[Arthur Marshall]

53 minutes ago, Chris John said:

I guess you didn’t read the T&C’s then

Who does?

[Chris John]

14 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Who does?

Well maybe if he’s going to moan about them on a forum it may have been a good idea 

[Arthur Marshall]

3 minutes ago, Chris John said:

Well maybe if he’s going to moan about them on a forum it may have been a good idea 

If he's had a boat a while, it shouldn't have come as a shock! There were enough ructions when it came in all them years back.

[Ex Brummie]

1 hour ago, Loddon said:

And whether the land owner has done a deal with cart. My old mooring was subject to a BW fee as well as the landowners fee until the landowner did a deal with BW that he paid the BW fee at a discount and charged us.  I hear he us buying the ransom strip from cart, it will be interesting to see  if he still has to pay them after that.

if he buys the ransom strip, then boats will still be liable for end of garden moorings. You have to go back a long way to the deal done when the canal companies agreed to forgo these rights for passage through land.

[Steve56]

6 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I've always been on farm moorings, and always paid a mooring fee to CRT (well, since they invented it about 25 years ago). The justification is that your licence lets you cruise, but the mooring fee lets you park up on their water for longer than the 14 days concession. Farm moorings get charged at what CRT consider half the going equivalent CRT mooring rate, which in my case is twice what I pay the farmer, much to my disgruntlement. I think they just make up a figure, to be honest.

Marinas just include this in what they charge you and make a bulk payment to CRT.

The licence fee just allows you to have your boat on the water. There is no guarantee or any right to cruise. If there are any problems or closures, then hard luck. CRT cannot be held responsible and there is no possibility of any refunds. Where as a CRT mooring just let's you have your boat on the water. But without being chased by CRT.

[Arthur Marshall]

4 hours ago, Steve56 said:

The licence fee just allows you to have your boat on the water. There is no guarantee or any right to cruise. If there are any problems or closures, then hard luck. CRT cannot be held responsible and there is no possibility of any refunds. Where as a CRT mooring just let's you have your boat on the water. But without being chased by CRT.

That was the way I thought of it when the fee came in. It was just another way of increasing the real licence fee while pretending it wasn't. I equate it to governments bragging about reducing income tax while increasing NIC - it's the same thing except worse.

 

11 hours ago, Loddon said:

And whether the land owner has done a deal with cart. My old mooring was subject to a BW fee as well as the landowners fee until the landowner did a deal with BW that he paid the BW fee at a discount and charged us.  I hear he us buying the ransom strip from cart, it will be interesting to see  if he still has to pay them after that.

The ransom strip makes no difference to whether a mooring charge is levied.

[Jim Riley]

11 hours ago, Chris John said:

I guess you didn’t read the T&C’s then

Why bother, we are entitled to a licence on production of insurance and BSS certificates, according to the Act. 😈

[MtB]

10 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Who does?

 

Me for a start. 

 

And most people who have learned that T&Cs are not always the same as you think they ought to be.

 

This being a prime example.

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

21 minutes ago, Jim Riley said:

Why bother, we are entitled to a licence on production of insurance and BSS certificates, according to the Act. 😈

 

 

There are 4 conditions to be granted a licence - You also need to make payment and show you have a home mooring (or make a declaration that you don't have one) 😈 

 

But the Act also details in what circumstances you do not need a BSS or licence and under what conditions the licence can be cancelled.

[MtB]

56 minutes ago, Jim Riley said:

Why bother, we are entitled to a licence on production of insurance and BSS certificates, according to the Act. 😈

 

 

True, but this thread is about the T&Cs of a mooring tenancy agreement. 

 

 

[blackrose]

14 hours ago, tats said:

Why are CRT licensing and CRT mooring separate from each other?  As a customer, one tends to think that they are one and the same, that, say, if you informed CRT that you had sold your boat and was leaving the canal, then that would be that. But actually you have to tell licensing and then also mooring. It seems strange that they are so separate. Why are they so separate? Is perhaps mooring not actually a Trust and is actually privately owned? I don't know, just a guess. But why are they so separate. It is as though they don't communicate between themselves, as would be the case with two separate companies. 

 

There are some unnecessarily critical and mocking replies on this thread, I'm not trying to join in. However...

 

License fees and mooring fees are separate things which are generally paid separately. Therefore if it were me I'd naturally assume they needed to be cancelled separately. So unless you were receiving a single bill/invoice for your licence fee & mooring fee and paying this as a single payment (or single direct debit) then why would you assume you could just cancel one and that would automatically cancel the other?

 

Look at it the other day around. Suppose someone sold their boat and cancelled the licence but they were buying another boat and wanted to keep the mooring. If CRT automatically cancelled the mooring and allocated it to another boat they would be rightly furious. Or if someone decided to leave their mooring to go CCing and cancelled the mooring and then found out later that CRT had automatically cancelled their licence!

 

You see the problems that could arise. CRT cannot assume your intentions.

[David Schweizer]

16 hours ago, Loddon said:

And whether the land owner has done a deal with cart. My old mooring was subject to a BW fee as well as the landowners fee until the landowner did a deal with BW that he paid the BW fee at a discount and charged us.  I hear he us buying the ransom strip from cart, it will be interesting to see  if he still has to pay them after that.

 

Historically where there was a private wharf with exclusive mooring rights, those rights have usually been transferred in the deeds to any new owner. Anyone paying the adjoining landowner for a mooring against such an old wharf does not have to pay C&RT anything. BW tried to enforce charges in the past, but was challenged on the legality of any charges by the IWA and lost.

[Orwellian]

6 minutes ago, David Schweizer said:

 

Historically where there was a private wharf with exclusive mooring rights, those rights have usually been transferred in the deeds to any new owner. Anyone paying the adjoining landowner for a mooring against such an old wharf does not have to pay C&RT anything. BW tried to enforce charges in the past, but was challenged on the legality of any charges by the IWA and lost.

That could be a really useful precedent so please can you provide a link to where we can access a report of the actual case you are referring to?