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Double mooring - ropes over roof


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I'm in London and someone has double moored up against me (I'm on the towpath). This is fine, except they're half moored against me, half against the boat in front of me, with their bow rope going OVER the middle of my boat and tying on to the towpath ring. I can't find any info on this online but I'm sure I've read somewhere you should never run your ropes over someone's roof when double mooring?! If they sunk, wouldn't they just drag me down with them?

 

 

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45 minutes ago, thingsweregood said:

If they sunk, wouldn't they just drag me down with them?

 

 

That's a very difficult question to answer - there are a lot of variables. If they are in a rowing boat and you are on the QE2, then - no, probably not. On the other hand if you are in a rowing boat and they are on the QE2, then, yes, there is a very good chance that they will drag you down alongside - BUT, we now get into more variables. Rope length for one. They won't drag you down if there is enough slack in their lines to allow for the increased length demanded by their decreased bouyancy. And there is more; if their decreased bouyancy is exactly equal to the slack in the lines, the coefficient of extensivity of the lines that they have used will come into play.

 

It's not a simple yes or no answer

 

On the other hand, life is a turn of the coin, my friend. Not many boats just "sink".

 

But some do.

 

 

Edited by Bacchus
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17 minutes ago, Bacchus said:

 

 

That's a very difficult question to answer - there are a lot of variables. If they are in a rowing boat and you are on the QE2, then - no, probably not. On the other hand if you are in a rowing boat and they are on the QE2, then, yes, there is a very good chance that they will drag you down alongside - BUT, we now get into more variables. Rope length for one. They won't drag you down if there is enough slack in their lines to allow for the increased length demanded by their decreased bouyancy. And there is more; if their decreased bouyancy is exactly equal to the slack in the lines, the coefficient of extensivity of the lines that they have used will come into play.

 

It's not a simple yes or no answer

 

On the other hand, life is a turn of the coin, my friend. Not many boats just "sink".

 

But some do.

 

 

I don't really think they'll sink, but it feels like it's kind of bad form, no? I thought the idea was have the outside boat's ropes tied to the bank, not to the other boat (where possible), and not over the centre of the inside boat. Also by mooring half in front of me, and half in front of another boat they hem in two boats for the price of one! We're all narrowboats, if that makes a difference.

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Breasting up without asking is bad form in the first place, in most of the system. London seems to operate differently to the rest of the canals though and very few if any of us here are London dwellers. So it's not really a great place to ask.

 

"London Boaters" on FB is probably a better place to ask.  

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7 hours ago, thingsweregood said:

I don't really think they'll sink, but it feels like it's kind of bad form, no? I thought the idea was have the outside boat's ropes tied to the bank, not to the other boat (where possible), and not over the centre of the inside boat. Also by mooring half in front of me, and half in front of another boat they hem in two boats for the price of one! We're all narrowboats, if that makes a difference.

 

 

I don't think you're in any imminent danger, but, yeah, it does sound like bad form to me. I think it is considered bad form to even put the second boat's lines on top of the original on a bollard, they should be passed underneath! As @MtB says, they should have asked first, and it does seem odd to raft spanning two existing boats - apart from anything, it would be very difficult to get ashore without clambering over the original boat's roof, which also sounds like a bad show to me.

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12 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

It is called 'London etiquette' which is totally unacceptable anywhere else.

 

I've been known to use it on waterpoints across the country.  If someone is hogging a services landing I'm quite happy to tie up to them badly and scramble across their boat roof with a hosepipe.

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27 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

I've been known to use it on waterpoints across the country.  If someone is hogging a services landing I'm quite happy to tie up to them badly and scramble across their boat roof with a hosepipe.

I would be very unhappy as I have just painted the boat, so if someone put a rope across my cabin it could rub and damage some paint. Wouldn't it be better if they tied their front and rear ropes to your t stud and dolly

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Normally one wouldn't mess with another boat's mooring ropes but if you're not happy with the way they've breasted to to you and the boat is unoccupied just re-tie their ropes in a way that you're happy with. As long you're sure that their boat is secure.

Edited by blackrose
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Is anyone on the boat? If so voice your concern. I wouldn't like think someone's rope was rubbing my cabin paint every time something passed. Then again in London, I doubt if anyone is going anywhere. 

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10 hours ago, MtB said:

Breasting up without asking is bad form in the first place, in most of the system. London seems to operate differently to the rest of the canals though and very few if any of us here are London dwellers. So it's not really a great place to ask.

My understanding is that double mooring is universal in inner areas of London (where the canal is wide enough), and accepted by all concerned, and the etiquette is that you knock and ask before tieing up, but if there is no reply you tie up anyway. Similarly, if you are against the towpath and want to leave, you just untie the boat on the outside enough to get your boat out, then tie the other boat back against the bank (leaving the space outside it for another boat).

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2 hours ago, Bacchus said:

and it does seem odd to raft spanning two existing boats -

Having boated through London on a 70ft boat, sometimes it is necessary to span two boats. I don't like doing it, as it is messy for reasons already given, but I have done it a couple of times. I have always been able to get one end lined up with the end of one of the boats against the bank, so that end can be tied off to a mooring ring or bollard, and access can be gained across the bow/stern of the other boat. At the other end I have never needed to put ropes across a cabin top - tieing from my own handrail straight to the ring/bollard with the rope running between the two boats I am moored against has been sufficient.

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13 hours ago, thingsweregood said:

If they sunk, wouldn't they just drag me down with them?

 

 

Addressing this specifically, them sinking and taking your boat down with them is probably vanishingly unlikely. Firstly because narrowboats rarely if ever sink when tied up and unattended (unless they are the HESPERUS - an ancient wooden boat well known for repeatedly sinking), sinkings usually happens in locks. Still rare though. Secondly even if the boat tied over you did try to sink, yours would probably support and stop it rather than the pair of you going down. Thirdly, the canal is probably only about three feet deep anyway! 

 

 

Edited by MtB
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Had you booked the visitor mooring assuming it was a visitor mooring. We pulled into a visitor mooring In London once and was told it was not our turn and we were not on the list. The linger longers have a rota and move up and down the canal according to the rota to try and avoid CRT

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18 hours ago, thingsweregood said:

I'm in London and someone has double moored up against me (I'm on the towpath). This is fine, except they're half moored against me, half against the boat in front of me, with their bow rope going OVER the middle of my boat and tying on to the towpath ring. I can't find any info on this online but I'm sure I've read somewhere you should never run your ropes over someone's roof when double mooring?! If they sunk, wouldn't they just drag me down with them?

 

 

You are lucky they didn't just tie around your mushroom vents

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19 hours ago, thingsweregood said:

I'm in London and someone has double moored up against me (I'm on the towpath). This is fine, except they're half moored against me, half against the boat in front of me, with their bow rope going OVER the middle of my boat and tying on to the towpath ring. I can't find any info on this online but I'm sure I've read somewhere you should never run your ropes over someone's roof when double mooring?! If they sunk, wouldn't they just drag me down with them?

 

 

I wouldn't be happy with a rope over the roof.

 

I would untie that rope and retie it somewhere more suitable then explain to the owners when they return why I had done that.

 

Double mooring/breasting up/rafting never really bothered us, we just took it as part of boating. I know some folks are not keen on it but in some parts it is very much the norm. We did always make sure though that ropes were never set in a way that they would damage or cause a nuisance to other boats.

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5 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Addressing this specifically, them sinking and taking your boat down with them is probably vanishingly unlikely. Firstly because narrowboats rarely if ever sink when tied up and unattended (unless they are the HESPERUS - an ancient wooden boat well known for repeatedly sinking), sinkings usually happens in locks. Still rare though. Secondly even if the boat tied over you did try to sink, yours would probably support and stop it rather than the pair of you going down. Thirdly, the canal is probably only about three feet deep anyway! 

 

 

Hesperus only sank for a reason. She never just sank.

She even didnt sink when i put 18 tons of coal on her once. She sulked leaked and got upset but didnt sink.

Three bilge pumps were useful.

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43 minutes ago, roland elsdon said:

Hesperus only sank for a reason. She never just sank.

 

Yes, the bilge pump batteries running flat, surely? 

 

She certainly apparently sank spontaneously a few years ago when hanging around Cropredy. No load on, one day floating, next morning, sitting on the bottom. Pretty sure this happened at least twice, shortly before spending a year on Welsh Richard's dock having the counterblock replaced. 

 

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19 hours ago, MtB said:

Breasting up without asking is bad form in the first place, in most of the system. London seems to operate differently to the rest of the canals though and very few if any of us here are London dwellers. So it's not really a great place to ask.

 

"London Boaters" on FB is probably a better place to ask.  

That is because normally there is no one on board the bank side bank

12 hours ago, Bacchus said:

 

  and it does seem odd to raft spanning two existing boats - apart from anything, it would be very difficult to get ashore without clambering over the original boat's roof, which also sounds like a bad show to me.

When you get boats of different lengths thats what happens, no git gaps

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51 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

When you get boats of different lengths thats what happens, no git gaps

Surely with boats of different length the sensible thing to do is ensure one end is level with the other boat.   This would make it more likely that the line at the other end would be running across either the bows or stern of the next boat rather than over the roof.

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1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

Yes, the bilge pump batteries running flat, surely? 

 

She certainly apparently sank spontaneously a few years ago when hanging around Cropredy. No load on, one day floating, next morning, sitting on the bottom. Pretty sure this happened at least twice, shortly before spending a year on Welsh Richard's dock having the counterblock replaced. 

 

Ah there were many reasons she sank I agree mainly very knackered wooden, knackered, holed. But when she concentrated for while she could manage.

i would advocate the concept of a schrodingers sinker. She was only sunk when observed sunk, at others times she was un observably floating.

 

Anyway i understand she has a new owner and wish him luck, I wouldnt take on a wooden boat again, he is a brave man and if he is successful its another boat saved.

As i said i put 18 tons on her and she didnt sink ( but it was a shallow bit)

 

As for ropes over a boat no way, damaging and dangerous practice.

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15 minutes ago, roland elsdon said:

i would advocate the concept of a schrodingers sinker. She was only sunk when observed sunk, at others times she was un observably floating.

 

Point of Order M'lud....

 

A "Schrödinger's sinker" would, to be accurate, be in both floating and sunken states at the same time, only settling on one state or the other when someone opens to box it is in to have a good gander.

 

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