Explains my electrical system which is like no other

[LadyG]

I did not set this system up but it has worked for years, most problems occur after alteration by electrcians.

 

There used to be shorepower, and I believe the bow batteries were charged by an inverter charger, this was removed by an electrician, he told me it was an invertor, in spite of the fact , it was labelled charger, and should not have been removed, as now I cant pop in to a marina to charge bow batteries.

There are two other battery banks, in the stern, these are

The Starter , 80ah, eight months old, it seems to work fine, starting the engine without problems, it is normally Off when engine not running, and often when engine is running, but the battery has re charged.

 

The Domestic, this is a bank of three x 135 ah purchased two years ago and have worked OK, the Webasto is the main user. I have kept them charged by a 70 amp engine alternator for the last year. I am usually able to get all batteries up to a reasonable voltage by this method. If in doubt they get maybe four hours once a week, I judge the effectivenes or state of charge by watching the ampmeter and switching the several isolators on and off. The ammeter is usually drawing 30 amps, and you can hear it working hard or less hard when changing battery banks, the norm is to have all banks connected until the ammmeter falls from 30 down to under 4/5, it is then left for maybe an hour in winter, or turned if solar will kick in to trickle charge for the rest of the day. There are 550w of solat and a 40 amp epever contoler, they feed all batteries.

 

I am a very low user, the fridge is normally Off, but the Webasto is On regularly, though only as a secondary heat source.

 

The USB sockets near the engine control panel sometimes work, if the blue light is an indicator, they are not working just now. 

 

I am pretty sure the three main isolator switches, which are on one very large thick iron bar, with lots of thick cables attached to a busbar, asuming the thick iron bar is the busbar,  and the idea is that each battery bank can be isolated, I think they used to do this, but now I think there is some doubt, as all the boat electrics, including cabin lights and fridge seem to be working in unison even though only one isolator is On.  I think that when one domestic battery was on, and the other Off, I could see that the front or the rar lights were being served individually, so if the bow batteries were Off, the fridge, did not work. I am so confused that I am not even sure about this, The only thing I am surevof is that the bow batteries (brand spanking new) are now sitting at 10.4

 

I am struggling to explain the system, but wil answer all queries, if I can, however I am not going to strip the boat out, in order to answer queries, and I am not sure if I can upload photos.

I have only just learned how to takephotos on my phone, but Inhave no idea how tbey can arrive on the laptop for uploading on here.

 

 

Edited May 14, 2021 by LadyG

[Naughty Cal]

Why do you have a seperate bank of batteries at the bow?

 

Would it not be simpler to just have one bank of domestic batteries at the stern of the boat?

[Jennifer McM]

10 minutes ago, LadyG said:

 

I have only just learned how to takephotos on my phone, but Inhave no idea how tbey can arrive on the laptop for uploading on here.

 

 

To upload a photo to the forum, open the photo on your camera app, then press the share button (the icon for sharing looks like 3 connected dots)

 

Choose your method of sharing - choose email, then send the pic to your email

 

Open your email from your laptop, then either copy the image onto a forum post, or save the pic to your laptop, and upload from there.

 

Think a variety of pics will help enormously. Sorry I can't help with electrics, think you've got better knowledge than me there ?

 

[matty40s]

I cant believe you've never mentioned this problem before.

[Murflynn]

if you can't find or create a wiring diagram then no-one can be sure what the problems are and how they can be resolved.

 

.........................   if you or a competent technical guy (doesn't need to be one of your incompetent electricians) cannot create such a document then, as was suggested earlier, rip it all out and start again  ..................  or at least disconnect everything, check each wire for continuity so you can identify them at each end, and then re-connect in accordance with a well-designed wiring diagram.    There are plenty of books and documents out there (ask Tony Brooks) to help you design a proper wiring system.

[Higgs]

Non app user. Laptop normally used for the internet. 

 

Take photo with phone. Connect phone to laptop, via USB cable. Copy photo to laptop. In forum text box, click choose file. Find photo and open. It should appear on here. If the file size is too large, reduce in a simple paint programme. Keep ratios locked (width and height) and reduce by percentage. 

 

 

Edited May 14, 2021 by Higgs

[LadyG]

18 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

Why do you have a seperate bank of batteries at the bow?

 

Would it not be simpler to just have one bank of domestic batteries at the stern of the boat?

There was once a bow thruster, so there were batteries there, the fridge was connectedcto them, and the usb and the 375 w invertor. 

The first owner wired the boat, the shorepower connection comes in at the bow, there will be cabling sending power to the 20 amp charger , not a smart charger, to charge fo stern batteries.

I think the bow batteries were charged on shorepowervby a big invertor charger, which has niw been removed.

It is not possible to re wire the whole boat without mega expence and there is no need to, the system usually works.

Edited May 14, 2021 by LadyG

[Tony Brooks]

39 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I am pretty sure the three main isolator switches, which are on one very large thick iron bar, with lots of thick cables attached to a busbar, asuming the thick iron bar is the busbar,  and the idea is that each battery bank can be isolated, I think they used to do this, but now I think there is some doubt, as all the boat electrics, including cabin lights and fridge seem to be working in unison even though only one isolator is On.  I think that when one domestic battery was on, and the other Off, I could see that the front or the rar lights were being served individually, so if the bow batteries were Off, the fridge, did not work. I am so confused that I am not even sure about this, The only thing I am surevof is that the bow batteries (brand spanking new) are now sitting at 10.4

 

 

Those three isolator switches all connected on one side to a single cable makes suggest that t hey are in the negative as many old boats were but if so and as you describe it there things to note:

 

If the iron bar is a bus bar and the thick cables on the other side of the switches run to the battery banks then every thing will be connected to any or all the banks so everything will work from any single bank.

 

The same will apply if the thick cables run from the battery positives.

 

This is a very odd and unusual system that seems to hark back to 1, 2, both, off switches but modified for a three bank system.

 

[LadyG]

38 minutes ago, matty40s said:

I cant believe you've never mentioned this problem before.

Which problem is that, the photo thing, anyway it has not worked, 

I hit the three spots, and it opened up, at my gmail, 

I wanted to send it to my laptop, maybe itbis already there, I have no idea, butbit fpdid not like me sending it from phome gmail to laptop gmail

"from ladyg etc.

To ?

The other option were files

Messages

Maps

Edited May 14, 2021 by LadyG

[Tony Brooks]

19 minutes ago, LadyG said:

There was once a bow thruster, so there were batteries there, the fridge was connectedcto them, and the usb and the 375 w invertor. 

The first owner wired the boat, the shorepower connection comes in at the bow, there will be cabling sending power to the 20 amp charger , not a smart charger, to charge fo stern batteries.

I think the bow batteries were charged on shorepowervby a big invertor charger, which has niw been removed.

It is not possible to re wire the whole boat without mega expence and there is no need to, the system usually works.

 

I very much doubt its necessary to rewire the whole boat and can understand money is tight but you have been having problems for a long t[me and when you started with a narrow boat you were advised that ideally the batteries should all be in one bank (apart from the engine battery). It really is not sensible to stick with the line it worked once and  want it to work now because it has been messed with by at least two people and you seem to have little idea of what has been done in any details. All that has to be investigated and a way forward planned.

[LadyG]

10 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I very much doubt its necessary to rewire the whole boat and can understand money is tight but you have been having problems for a long t[me and when you started with a narrow boat you were advised that ideally the batteries should all be in one bank (apart from the engine battery). It really is not sensible to stick with the line it worked once and  want it to work now because it has been messed with by at least two people and you seem to have little idea of what has been done in any details. All that has to be investigated and a way forward planned.

Yes Tony, but I cannot find an electrician who is able to do boat ekectrics, I have tried. I have failed. All eight of them claimed experience. Only three were allowed to do anything. 

That anything was replace batteries, the first electrician was supposed to re design electrics, he visited several times, over three months, I eventually got three new domestic batteries in place of four duds, 

This current one tells me that it is nonsense that if all the isolators are turned Off while engine is running, there is no possibility of the diodes on the alternator blowing, this is something that has been drummed in to me for forty years, so I really am completely perplexed why this guy says that will not happen. He also tells me that an inverter draws power even when notihing is plugged in, and when questioned as to how much power, he flustered, I don't think he knew what the big yellow motor in the bow battery compartment was, I indicated that

was the reason for starter batteries being instaled at some time but he still did not click.

Edited May 14, 2021 by LadyG

[Chagall]

4 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Yes Tony, but I cannot find an dlectrician who is able to do biat ekectrics, I have tried. I have failed. All eight if them claimed experience.

This current one tells me that it is nonsense that if all the isolstors are turned Off while engine is running, there is no possibility of the diodes on the alternstor blowing, this is something that has been drummed in to me for forty years, so I really am completely perplexed why this guy says that will not happen.

LG, you have been given an answer more than three times now by a very patient and extremely experienced electrical engineer. (and still without any thanks for him) Get your boat closer to Tony as soon as you can and stop whinging about all your bad luck and misinformation. 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

10 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Yes Tony, but I cannot find an dlectrician who is able to do biat ekectrics, I have tried. I have failed. All eight if them claimed experience.

This current one tells me that it is nonsense that if all the isolstors are turned Off while engine is running, there is no possibility of the diodes on the alternstor blowing, this is something that has been drummed in to me for forty years, so I really am completely perplexed why this guy says that will not happen.

 

To a degree he may be correct about that because 40 years ago Lucas alternators had surge quench diodes in the to prevent damage but they  often failed. More modern ones may have such diodes in their regulator so nowadays removing the load from a running alternator is less likely to damage the alternator but I would never be so positive about it - better safe than sorry.

[Tony Brooks]

Further to the master switches.

 

A master switch should be as close as reasonable to the battery its isolating yet yours seem to all be close to the banks at the rear (a bit of an assumption on my part) so there will be long runs of cable that you could not isolate from the front bank if a short on them ever occurred. I am afraid that is a recipe for the boat to catch fire and burn out. If my assumption is correct I have no idea how the boat got a BSS certificate unless the examiner did not know about the front bank.

 

I don't want to  be alarmist but if the worst did happen then I wonder how the insurance company would react.

[LadyG]

11 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

To a degree he may be correct about that because 40 years ago Lucas alternators had surge quench diodes in the to prevent damage but they  often failed. More modern ones may have such diodes in their regulator so nowadays removing the load from a running alternator is less likely to damage the alternator but I would never be so positive about it - better safe than sorry.

The alternator is probably twenty years old, I once did have all three off, for an instant and the alternatir did not blow, but you see, he had never heard of this, something I would expect someone who has been doing electrics for thirty years. And he can't fit a radio! Walks away, and expects me to finish the job. I should have paid him for parts, and not forblabour, but he demanded to payment that day, and it was the next daybthat problems surfaced,

6 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Further to the master switches.

 

A master switch should be as close as reasonable to the battery its isolating yet yours seem to all be close to the banks at the rear (a bit of an assumption on my part) so there will be long runs of cable that you could not isolate from the front bank if a short on them ever occurred. I am afraid that is a recipe for the boat to catch fire and burn out. If my assumption is correct I have no idea how the boat got a BSS certificate unless the examiner did not know about the front bank.

 

I don't want to  be alarmist but if the worst did happen then I wonder how the insurance company would react.

I can't worry about the future, I need to get this sorted. How can a brand new battery bank drop down overnight to 10.4 it just seems impossible.

I showed the BSC everything, as he was also there to do some gas work, I discussed 240v , he indicated that the BSC were not wanting examiners to delve too deep,y in to electrics, which makes the whole thing a nonsense.

I have the BSC as proof that the boat is safe, for insurance purposes and licence purposes, It's my Get out of Jail card.

Edited May 14, 2021 by LadyG

[Tony Brooks]

That is what we need to find out. There are four possibilities.

 

1. As is common the batteries were not fully charged and were not given a freshening charge before fitting.

2. A battery is faulty

3. There is a permanent drain on the bank that is high enough to do that.

4. Number 1 plus inadequate charging.

 

I suspect number 4 but surface charge may be giving a false indication of just how well charged the bank actually is. This is why I have asked for the voltage at the front batteries and at the source of what is supposed to be charging them e.g. solar controller.

 

[Jennifer McM]

1 hour ago, LadyG said:

Which problem is that, the photo thing, anyway it has not worked, 

I hit the three spots, and it opened up, at my gmail, 

I wanted to send it to my laptop, maybe itbis already there, I have no idea, butbit fpdid not like me sending it from phome gmail to laptop gmail

"from ladyg etc.

To ?

The other option were files

Messages

Maps

You can send an email to the same email address... have a go....

[MrsM]

I know it is a big expense but why not bite the bullet and book the Burton Waters' electrician? Presumably he knows and understands boat electrics. Between now and when he is available you could make a clear list of all the very important questions that the experts in here have asked you. You could then get the electrician to give you the answers. Surely this will save you money and grief in the long run, compared to getting a string of chaps who you are not happy with? And you should end up with a better understanding of your system. Lincoln is a lovely place to stop over for a few days - big Morrisons a few minutes walk from the Foss and Marina. (And a Halfords over the road should you decide to change your new radio). Good luck. 

[NB Alnwick]

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

That is what we need to find out. There are four possibilities.

 

1. As is common the batteries were not fully charged and were not given a freshening charge before fitting.

2. A battery is faulty

3. There is a permanent drain on the bank that is high enough to do that.

4. Number 1 plus inadequate charging.

 

I suspect number 4 but surface charge may be giving a false indication of just how well charged the bank actually is. This is why I have asked for the voltage at the front batteries and at the source of what is supposed to be charging them e.g. solar controller.

 

 

I concur with the above - especially the first point. I have just fitted a pair of brand new engine start batteries. They were sold as fully charged but before fitting I charged them both overnight using my standard Halfords 8 Amp chargers (fortunately I have two of these) and in that state they started my engine after a couple of revolutions BUT they then continued to accept a very high rate of charge from the engine Alternator (measured on the engine ammeter) for the next eight hours of cruising! Clearly, these new batteries were not charged to anything approaching their capacity.

[PD1964]

So the only form of battery charging at present is via engine and solar panal. What batteries is your MPPT connected to/charging? How are your bow batteries charging?

  You have 3x isolation switches, normally 1 for your starter battery, 1 for your domestic bank and I imagine 1 for your bow batteries.

  You say you switch these off and on, I image this is why your bow batteries are draining if the fridge is drawing directly from them, are you sure the fridge is drawing from bow batteries.  You need to leave your isolation switch on to the bow batteries, if they are connected to your main bank for charging or have a split charge device connected as once you switch off their isolation they will not be getting charged. 
 Have you a multi-meter? To make things easier you need to know what battery bank your isolation switches are isolating and more importantly if they effect battery charging especially the bow batteries.
  

Edited May 14, 2021 by PD1964

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, PD1964 said:

 You need to leave your isolation switch on to the bow batteries, if they are connected to your main bank for charging or have a split charge device connected as once you switch off their isolation they will not be getting charged. 

The problem is that we don't know how these batteries are charged since an earlier electrician removed the bow charger. My guess is that there are long relatively thin wires running the length of the boat, so whenever the bow batteries are not fully charged (I.e. most of the time) the charge current creates a significant volt drop, and so the bow batteries don't get to see a full charge voltage. Given enough time, and no load on the bow batteries, they will charge fully. But as LadyG is using them to power the fridge, that never happens . Hence they get knackered. It has been suggested more than once that dedicated fat wires from the main rear battery bank to the fridge would be more sensible, but it seems her ladyship doesn't want to do that. And so her problems will continue.

[Tony Brooks]

23 minutes ago, David Mack said:

The problem is that we don't know how these batteries are charged since an earlier electrician removed the bow charger. My guess is that there are long relatively thin wires running the length of the boat, so whenever the bow batteries are not fully charged (I.e. most of the time) the charge current creates a significant volt drop, and so the bow batteries don't get to see a full charge voltage. Given enough time, and no load on the bow batteries, they will charge fully. But as LadyG is using them to power the fridge, that never happens . Hence they get knackered. It has been suggested more than once that dedicated fat wires from the main rear battery bank to the fridge would be more sensible, but it seems her ladyship doesn't want to do that. And so her problems will continue.

 

And she seems remarkably reluctant to give voltage readings so we can see how likely that is.

[PD1964]

I know it’s all confusing, especially the bow battery charger being removed, which I take was only used on shore power/landline. So yes is there a charge wire/current off the other domestic bank or a split charge off the alternator when not on landline with insufficient gauged wire isolated by the 3rd isolation switch?

 We all know the simplest solution would be to get rid of the bow batteries and increase the domestic bank at rear and link the fridge to them, it may be quite simple to re-route the fridge supply or pull wires through. I’m sure we’ll never know how simple it will be as her answers are often more vague then the questions she asks.

 

Edited May 14, 2021 by PD1964

[GUMPY]

I will put money on the bow batteries being charged from the battery charger running from a combi inverter/charger on the rear batteries.

As the boat appears to have been built to run off a landline this would make total sense ?

Edited May 14, 2021 by Loddon

[Alan de Enfield]

19 minutes ago, Loddon said:

I will put money on the bow batteries being charged from the battery charger running from a combi inverter/charger on the rear batteries.

As the boat appears to have been built to run off a landline this would make total sense ?

 

Do you think that the Bow-batteries are being charged from the battery charger part of the combi, so in effect the combi is taking a 12v supply, inverting it to 230v and then running the charger part of the combi to charge the bow batteries ?

 

So, charging the bow batteries from the stern batteries ?