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Composting toilet waste disposal in CaRT bins


Composting toilet waste disposal in CaRT bins  

85 members have voted

  1. 1. Should CaRT continue to allow non-composted human waste from composting toilets to be disposed of in their waste bins (previous CaRT policy) or ban it (updated CaRT policy)?

    • Yes, they should continue to allow this in future
      15
    • No, this should be prohibited in future
      56
    • I don't care
      14


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1 minute ago, Dr Bob said:

....and that is the problem. There is no difference. They are both not nice things to put in a bin but thousands of tonnes per week  of dog poo are put in bins. To be unbiased the poll should ask if the crt should allow this, dog poo and dirty nappies in bins. It would be interesting to see how dog owners would respond. I would vote NOT to put these solids in bins but as it is common practice for most dog poo and most nappies to go this route then it is a route I would use.

 

Imagine the stink on here if the CRT suddenly said no more dog poo in bins? Dont get me wrong, I love dogs and we had two all our lives until not too long ago. They did produce an enormous pile of poo. We can put that in the bins.

 

Also, this thread is another example of IanD doing a Trump. Misinformation and untruths. The CRT HAVE NOT BANNED this waste. Their guidance is that it should be composted and only a 'should not' be put in bins. That is not a ban. That is not a rule. Given the question is highly suspect and an un-truth, how can the poll be taken seriously?

Nope. Their latest "Advice to boaters" says "must not".

 

Argument by distraction again -- CaRT are not proposing a rule change to ban dog poo, they're proposing a rule change to ban non-composted waste from composting toilets. That's what the issue is. That's what the poll is about.

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16 minutes ago, Jerra said:

It would be interesting to know the general opinion of "composting Loo" owners on the following.

 

1.  If there was a cost to dispose of the "product" how much would you expect to pay?

 

2.  What volume would you expect to be able to dispose of for that fee?

1. I would think they should be able to pitch it at the cost of a pump out so circa £15/month.

To make it easier just chuck in another £50 per year on the license fee for all who use composting toilets and cassettes. (Elsans also cost money to run). After all, binning and elsans have been the recomendation for the last 3 years. The poo can continue to go into the bin like all the other poo and there is money to pay for the incinerator. That is quite simple.

 

Oh, no. The peeps who dont have dogs, babies or incontinence pads still wont realise how these things are disposed of. How will we educate them?

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, tehmarks said:

 

Yes, sorry, that was meant to be implicit. A composting toilet, with waste composted, is surely the mot elegant solution to the problem of crapping on an inland vessel. To that end, given that composting is a natural process that will occur without massive expense or infrastructure, it surely isn't beyond the wit of man to provide communal composting facilities.

The idea is great, but nobody has been able to come up with a way to make it work for canal boats, just lots of reasons why it won't work -- at least without charging the composters a comparable or larger sum than they'd pay for pump-outs, because somebody has to deal with the compost and they have to be paid, and you have to stop people misusing the bins, and there have to be plenty of them all round the system, and...

 

Deal with your own composting (so you take care of it), brilliant idea.

 

Communally (a few people who know each other and share facilities and take care of them), brilliant idea.

 

Distributed system where nobody really cares what happens to their waste because somebody else deals with it (but you don't want to pay for it), unworkable.

 

I did ask ages ago how much the composters were willing to pay to have it taken away and this question was repeated a few posts back, but there was no answer. Even if a few responsible boaters on this forum would happily pay, the suspicion is that most bag'n'binners wouldn't because low cost was one of the key reasons they fitted one.

9 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

1. I would think they should be able to pitch it at the cost of a pump out so circa £15/month.

To make it easier just chuck in another £50 per year on the license fee for all who use composting toilets and cassettes. (Elsans also cost money to run). After all, binning and elsans have been the recomendation for the last 3 years. The poo can continue to go into the bin like all the other poo and there is money to pay for the incinerator. That is quite simple.

 

Oh, no. The peeps who dont have dogs, babies or incontinence pads still wont realise how these things are disposed of. How will we educate them?

I did suggest a fiver a week along time ago, to be the same as a pumpout, while doubting that it could be done this cheaply per boat because there are maybe 30x more boats using pumpouts than composting toilets, and a large part of the cost is independent of the number of boats using it.

 

For this to work the only solution would probably be a compost bin network, because it makes no sense to pay extra and maybe reclassify the contents of every waste bin (used by ~30000 boaters) to allow a few hundred composters to keep using them.

 

Dogs, babies, incontinence pads -- argument by distraction, CaRT are not proposing to ban any of these, that's not what the poll is asking.

Edited by IanD
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14 minutes ago, tehmarks said:

 

Yes, sorry, that was meant to be implicit. A composting toilet, with waste composted, is surely the mot elegant solution to the problem of crapping on an inland vessel. To that end, given that composting is a natural process that will occur without massive expense or infrastructure, it surely isn't beyond the wit of man to provide communal composting facilities.

Exactly, and whilst it may not be just yet, then it is entirely possible if preference for it gather pace, but  providing CRT (who read these forums) with a poll such as this just gives them a handy opportunity to forget about it now.   Even if the 'I dont care' gathers momentum, it then negates healthy debate or the possibility of a survey.

 

People do care, but the majority here have a smug taunting disregard for something different to their own choice, and label all boaters who do not compost as idiots. People have indeed spent a great deal of money, hopefully many will find a solution elsewhere until CRT provide one, but Im afraid many will continue to put in the bins or throw it down the elsan, thus forcing the situation that Ian prefers, of banning them entirely.   

 

 

 

 

Edited by Chagall
changed 'demand for 'preference
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1 minute ago, Chagall said:

Exactly, and whilst it may not be just yet, then it is entirely possible if demands for it gather pace, but  providing CRT (who read these forums) with a poll such as this just gives them a handy opportunity to forget about it now.   Even if the 'I dont care' gathers momentum, it then negates healthy debate or the possibility of a survey.

 

People do care, but the majority here have a smug taunting disregard for something different to their own choice, and label all boaters who do not compost as idiots. People have indeed spent a great deal of money, hopefully many will find a solution elsewhere until CRT provide one, but Im afraid many will continue to put in the bins or throw it down the elsan, thus forcing the situation that Ian prefers, of banning them entirely.   

 

 

I have specifically said many times that the people who have installed these toilets were neither fools not idiots, they did something which was convenient and worked for them and they were permitted to do at the time -- which you could say is rather clever, spotting a loophole in the rules and taking advantage of it is what well-paid tax advisers help people do.

 

I assume they can all read, so they saw the phrase "should be composted" but ignored it in favour of "...may be double-bagged...". Their choice, nobody forced them to make it -- and many others didn't but chose pumpouts or cassettes, possibly because they thought that composting toilets should be used to make compost and they couldn't do that. Caveat emptor, as was said earlier.

 

But more and more boaters did the same (for the same reasons) and now CaRT say that the increased use of the bins for this can no longer continue.

 

I don't "prefer" banning them entirely, my strong preference would be for people to use them as they were intended to be used (making compost), or failing that find some other way of disposing of the results. But if they can't/won't do the first and nobody can find a way of making the second work but things can't carry on as they are, what option is there other than to ban them?

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Well, I have a dog and I don't put dog poo bags in the general waste bins. I keep them on the front deck of the boat till I find a poo bin and pop them in. I find there are enough dog poo bins beside the canal.( Often near locks where I am off the boat anyway)  and it is no great hassle to dispose of the poo bags properly. I find the thought of dog  poo in general waste bins nearly as offensive as human poo  in the bins. 

I think most responsible dog owners will use dog poo bins rather than general waste ones.

 

Haggis

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7 minutes ago, haggis said:

Well, I have a dog and I don't put dog poo bags in the general waste bins. I keep them on the front deck of the boat till I find a poo bin and pop them in. I find there are enough dog poo bins beside the canal.( Often near locks where I am off the boat anyway)  and it is no great hassle to dispose of the poo bags properly. I find the thought of dog  poo in general waste bins nearly as offensive as human poo  in the bins. 

I think most responsible dog owners will use dog poo bins rather than general waste ones.

 

Haggis

 

I have no problem putting dog poo in waste bins. As I said somewhere up the thread our council provided bins are often dual purpose, dog poo and litter/waste. On a path where I regularly walk there is a dedicated bin at one end and a dual one at the other. Having seen them empty both it all goes into the same receptacle anyway.

 

 

Edited by The Happy Nomad
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1 hour ago, Jerra said:

Sorry but I don't see that as biased and I assumed a ban would include nappies.   They are after all recyclable and in this day and age everything that can be recycled should be.

I'm no expert on incontinence,  but in what way are they recylable, they are landfillable or incineratable, but are you saying we can re use soiled nappies of the modern type? Plastic wraps, gel, and all. Get a grip. 

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Do people do that? If we’re on board for a stretch, it composts. If not, it goes the same place as other boat “produce “ in the next conveniently quiet CRT disposal point, same as a cassette but much less produce over the year. What’s the issue?

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4 minutes ago, droshky said:

Do people do that? If we’re on board for a stretch, it composts.

 

 

Does it ?

 

You must have quite long 'stretches' as it takes ~12 months to compost properly.

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The issue is that there is a controlled sanitary sewage system in place for sewage disposal, but not for unregulated, insanitory human faecal waste which carries your smells and disease , attracts flies, and is contrary to Biffa contracts. 

Composting is not dehydrating, composting takes time, and heat is generated to kill disease. 

Edited by LadyG
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19 minutes ago, The Happy Nomad said:

 

I have no problem putting dog poo in waste bins. As I said somewhere up the thread our council provided bins are often dual purpose, dog poo and litter/waste. On a path where I regularly walk there is a dedicated bin at one end and a dual one at the other. Having seen them empty both it all goes into the same receptacle anyway.

 

 

I have no.problem.using dual use   bins as you describe. I should have said that it was the big red bins as used at CRT services which I don't put dog poo.bags in. The dog and dual.purpose bins tend to be lined with a polythene bag which is replaced when the bin is emptied and these bins are in the main easy to use. The big red bins on the other hand are pretty disgusting and not so easy to use and there is more chance of poo bags (human or dog) bursting and the contents coming in contact with the heavy lid which others have to lift. 

 

Haggis

 

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1 hour ago, Dr Bob said:

1. I would think they should be able to pitch it at the cost of a pump out so circa £15/month.

To make it easier just chuck in another £50 per year on the license fee for all who use composting toilets and cassettes. (Elsans also cost money to run). After all, binning and elsans have been the recomendation for the last 3 years. The poo can continue to go into the bin like all the other poo and there is money to pay for the incinerator. That is quite simple.

 

Oh, no. The peeps who dont have dogs, babies or incontinence pads still wont realise how these things are disposed of. How will we educate them?

Interesting.   There is a considerable difference between £15/mnth and £50/annum.    If it is the waste handling company who don't want the "waste" in the bin how do CRT deal with that?   Sorry rereading I see you expect CRT to make a payment to the company.    Do you think a) £50 per annum would cover what the company would want.  b) boaters would be honest in declaring toilet type or how would that be enforced?

 

With regard to education I haven't a clue it is hard enough to get clear proven science over to some people.

1 hour ago, LadyG said:

I'm no expert on incontinence,  but in what way are they recylable, they are landfillable or incineratable, but are you saying we can re use soiled nappies of the modern type? Plastic wraps, gel, and all. Get a grip. 

Ask Dr Bob for detail he knows more than me.   The main point is they must not be contaminated by other waste so it would mean separate "nappy bins" just as you have for glass, tin foil, card etc

 

Contrary to popular opinion nappies are recyclable provided the will to do so is there.

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2 hours ago, LadyG said:

The issue is that there is a controlled sanitary sewage system in place for sewage disposal, but not for unregulated, insanitory human faecal waste which carries your smells and disease , attracts flies, and is contrary to Biffa contracts. 

 

Yes there is. The waste system is set up for dirty nappies, dog poo and incontinence pads....oh and cat litter! If Biffa say that this solid waste cant go in, then that look like discrimination as they are all the same waste codes. Do you put your cat litter in the bin? Cat litter contains worse disease.

 

 

2 hours ago, LadyG said:

I'm no expert on incontinence,  but in what way are they recylable, they are landfillable or incineratable, but are you saying we can re use soiled nappies of the modern type? Plastic wraps, gel, and all. Get a grip. 

 

You cant re-use them but you can recover the various polymers. See below.

 

1 hour ago, Jerra said:

Ask Dr Bob for detail he knows more than me.   The main point is they must not be contaminated by other waste so it would mean separate "nappy bins" just as you have for glass, tin foil, card etc

 

Contrary to popular opinion nappies are recyclable provided the will to do so is there.

Yes nappies are recyclable but not that many are recycled. As I said earlier they can be processed if they are not contaminated. I dont know the process but it will be similar to the way we process our recycled plastic which will be first shredding and then into a sink/float tank. The faeces will be separated from the plastic and settle in a slurry as the density is greater than water and the plastic and water absorbing gel will float as their densities are lower than water. The issue will come if other contminants get in,like grit or soils which will end up in the slurry stream (ie high density) and get in the way of processing, or paper which will float (low density) and likely contaminate the polymer which may be very difficult to separate. The main issue in recycling is separation of the components.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Does it ?

 

You must have quite long 'stretches' as it takes ~12 months to compost properly.

Not instantly. If you’re using it most of the time for months, that creates a composting substance which you decant into another bin for a few months, then spread it on yer roses. If you leave it for ages you get a tough crust over an incompostable mess which you Chuck into a disposal thingy

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And not into a bin which I agree is insanitary. 
 

It was suggested above that what comes out of a cassette is somehow sweeter and more contract compliant. Really?

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5 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

Well Ive ticked I dont care. Whilst I think composting bogs are a bloomin daft idea on a moving boat i think theres more to bother about in the greater scheme of things. just sayin like.

 

Well I've ticked I don't care. [as well as mrsmelly] Whilst I think composting bogs are a blooming daft idea on a moving boat I think there's more to bother about in the greater scheme of things. just saying like.

 

My version corrected (hee,hee)

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Bobbybass said:

It's not composted though is it ?

 

The question should be.... "Should boaters be allowed to crap in rubbish bins"?

 

 

There's another way of putting the same poll question, but I'm sure it would have got even more accusations of bias...

 

Q. Who should be responsible in future for disposing of non-composted waste from composting toilets on boats where the boaters can't or won't turn it into compost?

 

1. CaRT -- waste goes into their bins and they have to dispose of it somehow ("old rules" option)

2. The non-composting boater -- they have to dispose of it somehow, but not in CaRT bins ("new rules" option)

 

Because that's essentially what this entire debate/argument is about -- whose problem should it be to dispose of it?

 

Not compost, not nappies, not dog poo, but big bags of partly-processed poo from grown-up humans.

 

No blame, no name-calling or accusations of idiocy, just one simple question -- whose responsibility should it be?

Edited by IanD
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IanD, this is really looking like an obsession now.  I haven't the foggiest idea why you're so riled up by this but all you've done with this thread is stirred things up even more and dragged all the same arguments over from the other thread.  I feel drained of my energy by this so I won't go into detail with all the reasons why a poll like this proves nothing.  Some reasons have been given by others already.  A couple of simple points: Your poll is set up in a skewed way and offers a binary choice which isn't how things actually are.  People who aren't bothered either way are unlikely to engage with a poll so your sample is self-selecting.  And this forum already skews towards boaters who get riled up by this sort of thing, so whatever the results are, they're meaningless.  If you're so bothered by what people think, then go and conduct a proper impartial survey.  Head down to the cut and knock on every single moored boat you walk past.  If someone is there, then ask them about it.  I guarantee that the majority won't even know what you're talking about.  Better still, get someone else who isn't so biased to go and ask them.

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8 hours ago, IanD said:

There's another way of putting the same poll question, but I'm sure it would have got even more accusations of bias...

 

Q. Who should be responsible in future for disposing of non-composted waste from composting toilets on boats where the boaters can't or won't turn it into compost?

 

1. CaRT -- waste goes into their bins and they have to dispose of it somehow ("old rules" option)

2. The non-composting boater -- they have to dispose of it somehow, but not in CaRT bins ("new rules" option)

 

Because that's essentially what this entire debate/argument is about -- whose problem should it be to dispose of it?

 

Not compost, not nappies, not dog poo, but big bags of partly-processed poo from grown-up humans.

 

No blame, no name-calling or accusations of idiocy, just one simple question -- whose responsibility should it be?

Its fairly obvious whose responsibility it is.  The responsibility to dispose of faeces properly falls upon every boater, whatever type of system.  Cassette owners at the moment have it as the most economical. So it isn't necessarily that the cost factor is the only reason why boaters have chosen to install a composting toilet. Now it seems that CRT and the majority of boaters dont want the problem. CRT have already provided adequate methods of dealing with the waste and I agree dont have to add yet another. So on that theory should every boater be obliged to fit only a cassette or a holding tank?  

 

Ecology, care for each other and the environment, is beginning to be considerably more important in peoples mind than just greed and selfishness. According to some such as Ms. Thunder-wotever  it isn't happening fast enough.  So why couldn't it be an option for boaters, if they had the means for disposal to a dedicated  collection system, which would then go to the original purpose of compost, a saleable resource that is indeed 'saving the planet'  It could even eclipse pump-outs, elsans might not block quite as often with only urine as most of the content.  Forward thinking Marinas will continue as sites for this sort of change to flourish and CRT are not likely to set something like that up in the next six months or even a year but with the right sort of encouragement, they just might.  Sadly, because of the amount of derision and scorn here from the majority of boaters, who refuse to even accept the premise,  it will probably never happen.  

 

 

 

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Have you noticed in recent times, in our so called democracy, that those on the losing side shout "Bias", "Sheep", "Misled", "Fraud" etc. Democracy is wonderful so long as you are on the winning side eh?.


This topic on both threads has been an enlightening and entertaining read but I think it's time to agree to disagree.

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6 minutes ago, Midnight said:

Have you noticed in recent times, in our so called democracy, that those on the losing side shout "Bias", "Sheep", "Misled", "Fraud" etc. Democracy is wonderful so long as you are on the winning side eh?.


This topic on both threads has been an enlightening and entertaining read but I think it's time to agree to disagree.

IME those on the 'winning' side do this just as much, with less excuse for doing so.

42 minutes ago, Chagall said:

Its fairly obvious whose responsibility it is.  The responsibility to dispose of faeces properly falls upon every boater, whatever type of system.  Cassette owners at the moment have it as the most economical. So it isn't necessarily that the cost factor is the only reason why boaters have chosen to install a composting toilet. Now it seems that CRT and the majority of boaters dont want the problem. CRT have already provided adequate methods of dealing with the waste and I agree dont have to add yet another. So on that theory should every boater be obliged to fit only a cassette or a holding tank?  

 

Ecology, care for each other and the environment, is beginning to be considerably more important in peoples mind than just greed and selfishness. According to some such as Ms. Thunder-wotever  it isn't happening fast enough.  So why couldn't it be an option for boaters, if they had the means for disposal to a dedicated  collection system, which would then go to the original purpose of compost, a saleable resource that is indeed 'saving the planet'  It could even eclipse pump-outs, elsans might not block quite as often with only urine as most of the content.  Forward thinking Marinas will continue as sites for this sort of change to flourish and CRT are not likely to set something like that up in the next six months or even a year but with the right sort of encouragement, they just might.  Sadly, because of the amount of derision and scorn here from the majority of boaters, who refuse to even accept the premise,  it will probably never happen.  

 

 

 

This is what happens when people don't genuinely want to find solutions, they just want to shout names, throw stones and seed division.

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So long as one is not using blue (formaldehyde) in a cassette toilet I can't see what benefit a bag and bin toilet can possibly have over a cassette unless you have a garden and need compost. You still have to visit sani stations to get rid of the wee etc. Seems like spending a lot of money for little benefit.

Are composting bogs the new trendy thing to have like Apple computers, then Tesla cars were😁

 

 

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