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C&RT say don't empty your compost toilet in our bins.


Alan de Enfield

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7 hours ago, LadyG said:

But they don't make money on the elsan, unless CRT pay, the cost is part of the running costs of a marina.  There is no way they can charge the boaters each time they empty their compoostalo, and as they already have provided an elsan, why bother with additional costs. 

I can't imagine staff will want extra work shifting human  manure, we are in the realms of fantasy again, like the CRT thinking they can find a workable solution, piloting in London, where it is likely they have the most tricky customers.

 Their current solution is to ask folks to store it on their roof until they find a convenient public compost heap. What nonsense. 

What facilities a marina bundle into their basic mooring fees and what they charge per-sue is a business decision for them and it can vary. Whilst most provide elsan 'for free' and pump-out per-use, I have found a few marinas that charge for elsan use as well. And I have come across the 'sewer lid lift provision as well!

 

I'm not sure about marinas providing compositing facilities: as I understand it, the intervention required ought to be minimal and not involve and unpleasant activity - just wait three years and then use it instead of peat bags. However, judging by how often I see signs at marinas and elsewhere cautioning users to use the elsan and toilets properly (or they will be expensively blocked) it does seem that unattended use is more often a problem than one would have hoped. For example, I do understand that slot machine laundry facilities have a very limited life due to misuse - same with unattended pump-outs. I did read at one stage about three or four years ago that CaRT make a loss on them, taking into account the high level of replacement and maintenance.

 

Seems to me that humans are bad for this planet and, like sea toilets, should be banned out of existence by law. There : I have offered a practical solution for all those who have been speculating . . . 

 

 

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11 hours ago, IanD said:

.

 

 

Do you have better or bigger survey results? You and three mates doesn't count... ?

 

Ian neither does this survey, its not worth the effort, the vast majority didnt know about it so its pointless and worthless even discussing it. What it has done is attract CRTs attention or one persons who has reacted to it against T & Cs of CRT which shows you their T & Cs have no legal position

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29 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Ian neither does this survey, its not worth the effort, the vast majority didnt know about it so its pointless and worthless even discussing it. What it has done is attract CRTs attention or one persons who has reacted to it against T & Cs of CRT which shows you their T & Cs have no legal position

 

 

I didn't think there was any mention of composting toilets in C&RTs licence T&Cs ?

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1 hour ago, peterboat said:

Ian neither does this survey, its not worth the effort, the vast majority didnt know about it so its pointless and worthless even discussing it. What it has done is attract CRTs attention or one persons who has reacted to it against T & Cs of CRT which shows you their T & Cs have no legal position

 

It doesn't matter how many people knew about it or replied, it's a survey sample of several hundred boaters with composting toilets -- which is far more than you and your three correctly-composting mates ?

 

Like any survey it can't be relied on as 100% accurate, but until somebody comes up with something better it's the only information we've got to estimate how many boaters compost their toilet waste properly.

 

The result from this survey is about a quarter (70 out of 250), which is not at all surprising giving how they've been sold in recent years and how vloggers like the Foxes are promoting them.

 

If you (or anybody else) has any better results covering a decent-sized sample then I'm sure we'd all love to see them; in the meantime rubbishing the results just because you didn't get to vote makes no sense at all...

 

36 minutes ago, peterboat said:

It says you can bag the poo and dump it in their bins apparently

 

Not in the T&Cs, it's in the "Advice to Boaters". This is what CaRT have just changed, it now says you can't bag it and dump it in their bins any more.

 

But this doesn't mean this has got any legal teeth, there's no sanction on boaters who ignore it, that would need a change in the rules.

 

Alan said that even the ban on sea toilets wasn't in the T&Cs/license terms which are difficult/impossible to change, it's in the BSS.

 

So if boaters carry on bagging and binning in spite of the new advice to boaters, CaRT's only option will probably be to add composting toilets to sea toilets as a BSS fail item.

 

If you're lucky they might allow exemptions for people like you who do compost properly, but enforcing this and avoiding fiddling by baggers could be difficult, the easiest option for CaRT would be a total ban.

 

Which would be a shame because when used properly composting toilets are better and greener than dumping poo into the sewage system ?

Edited by IanD
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18 minutes ago, peterboat said:

It says you can bag the poo and dump it in their bins apparently

 

 

I'm sure your are being a 'bit tongue in cheek' and know that the T&Cs have no such statement. in fact the only referenec that is close to discussing 'toilet waste' is :

 

4. Whilst the Boat is on the Waterway, you must behave considerately towards others (boaters and non-boaters alike) and in particular you must not:

(a) do anything which will cause damage or nuisance to any other person or their property;

(b) use any electricity generator, including the Boat's engine, at any mooring along the Waterway between 8pm and 8am, unless you are moored in isolation, out of earshot of other people. We do not intend this Rule to stop you moving the Boat from the mooring;

(c) run the Boat’s engine in gear when it is moored as this can damage the Waterway walls and cause a nuisance to other people;

(d) discharge anything into the Waterway from the Boat except unpolluted surface water that drains naturally or water from sinks or showers, washing machines and dishwashers. We request that only phosphate-free detergents are used on board the Boat, particularly in washing machines and dish washers;

(e) obstruct the towpath or use our land for storing items from your Boat; (

f) take a vehicle on to our towpaths or land or park on them unless we have already given our permission;

(g) Exceed the speed limit. Creating waves causes expensive damage to the Waterways. Regardless of speed, if the Boat is making waves or the wash is hitting the bank, you should slow down. The speed limit is four miles per hour on almost all Waterways. There are variations, particularly for rivers, which are locally signed;

 

Which means you cannot empty you composting toilet in the can, cut but makes no mention of the bins !

 

Edit - blooming predictive text.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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11 hours ago, Ianws said:

Not wishing to "stir things up" and apologies if this has been mentioned in the previous 21 pages. I'm sure most people commenting here with cassette toilets have access to and use proper Elsan points. I've no idea about %s so won't try and guess except to say that people who can't or won't access Elsan facilities may well use inappropriate facilities to empty their cassettes, including facilities used by members of the public. Happy Nomad said there is always somewhere to empty the Thetford, wherever they stay in the caravan. Not saying Happy Nomad does this but some campervan users acknowledge using toilets in supermarkets/ public toilets, or burying their waste, or even disposing of it in the ground a good distance away. Some say they carry wipes for any splashes in public toilets. What do continuous moorers with no access to Elsan points do, something similar? What's worse, bagged "compost" toilet waste in a controlled waste disposal environment or emptying cassette waste in a facility used by the public in an uncontrolled manner? 

Two wrongs don't make a right...

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2 hours ago, peterboat said:

Ian neither does this survey, its not worth the effort, the vast majority didnt know about it so its pointless and worthless even discussing it. What it has done is attract CRTs attention or one persons who has reacted to it against T & Cs of CRT which shows you their T & Cs have no legal position

To defend the survey if I can,  the person who runs the group is as honest as them come and although a supporter of compost bogs will freely acknowledge the issues associated with them and the benefits equally. 

 

The survey was an honest attempt to try to see how the bogs were being used  I am sure some highly paid bod could criticise it for failings of methodology  but I am also sure it was the  best she could do and as far as I can see the only such survey at this time.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Dyertribe said:

Bottom line, putting untreated sewage, human faeces, human faeces mixed with sawdust, coir,  kitty litter, whatever in to black bags or any other type of bins is barbaric and unhygienic.

Living on a boat is a lifestyle choice which comes with responsibilities, one of which is to dispose of your waste in a way which complies with the laws and rules of the waterway on which you live. 

Installing a toilet which you know you cannot use in the way it was intended is a huge gamble which some people have lost. Caveat emptor - Buyer beware.

Expecting to put your sh*t in a black bag for others to handle and have to smell if they use the same waste facilities (no, not everyone will keep it long enough for it to smell like Chanel No5, some of it will still be steaming)fish and disgusting.

 

 

22 pages succinctly summarised in 7 lines of text.

 

Nuff said !

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Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

It appears that they have done so.

 

Dyertribe: "Installing a toilet which you know you cannot use in the way it was intended is a huge gamble which some people have lost. Caveat emptor - Buyer beware."

 

CaRT : "...should be composted."

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

It appears that they have done so.

I haven't seen anything yet...

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2 minutes ago, IanD said:

Just waiting for somebody to reply with "But CaRT said it was OK!"... ?

It is not within CRT’s gift to allow this disgusting, unhygienic and barbaric (can you tell I don’t agree with bag it and bin it?) practice to continue. They buy in the services of a Waste removal company to deal with the refuse generated by users of the waterways they control. These contractors have told CRT that if they continue to allow human faeces to be deposited in their bins they will withdraw their services. This would cause untold chaos on the canals all to appease the selfish, cheapskate minority. 

What other decision could a sane person have made other than STOP IT!

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1 hour ago, tree monkey said:

To defend the survey if I can,  the person who runs the group is as honest as them come and although a supporter of compost bogs will freely acknowledge the issues associated with them and the benefits equally. 

 

The survey was an honest attempt to try to see how the bogs were being used  I am sure some highly paid bod could criticise it for failings of methodology  but I am also sure it was the  best she could do and as far as I can see the only such survey at this time.

 

 

There was a survey years ago by one of the chandeliers that sold them, I would have to look for the emails about it, it was advertised on here for people to email in if they had one, I was contacted by a number of people about them as a end user, happily a number of people bought them, a few contacted me with how happy they were with them 

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3 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Dyertribe: "Installing a toilet which you know you cannot use in the way it was intended is a huge gamble which some people have lost. Caveat emptor - Buyer beware."

 

CaRT : "...should be composted."

I haven't seen anything yet...

Exactly! If you do not personally have the facilities to keep 3 years worth of sh*t in the appropriate conditions, buy a different toilet!

1 minute ago, peterboat said:

There was a survey years ago by one of the chandeliers that sold them, I would have to look for the emails about it, it was advertised on here for people to email in if they had one, I was contacted by a number of people about them as a end user, happily a number of people bought them, a few contacted me with how happy they were with them 

Were the owners happy because they were able to use them properly or were they happy to use them without the properly composting bit?

I have no argument with those who have the land and space to do it properly.

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Reading this thread I find it interesting that many boaters accept CRT when they said "its OK to bag and bin" but don't accept it when CRT say "its not OK to bag and bin".

 

I do however agree with those who expect CRT to say its not OK after a set date.   However if the waste collection firm has put its foot down then they couldn't do that.

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18 minutes ago, Dyertribe said:

Exactly! If you do not personally have the facilities to keep 3 years worth of sh*t in the appropriate conditions, buy a different toilet!

Were the owners happy because they were able to use them properly or were they happy to use them without the properly composting bit?

I have no argument with those who have the land and space to do it properly.

Land available like me CRT might put in composting bins you never know stranger things have happened 

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10 minutes ago, Jerra said:

Reading this thread I find it interesting that many boaters accept CRT when they said "its OK to bag and bin" but don't accept it when CRT say "its not OK to bag and bin".

 

I do however agree with those who expect CRT to say its not OK after a set date.   However if the waste collection firm has put its foot down then they couldn't do that.

Assuming commercial waste collection rules are as A de E has described, I don't really know how CaRT were able to sign the contract with Biffa. CaRT has very little practical control over the contents of the bins. Many of which are in isolated areas and used by the public as well as boaters.

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1 minute ago, frahkn said:

Assuming commercial waste collection rules are as A de E has described, I don't really know how CaRT were able to sign the contract with Biffa. CaRT has very little practical control over the contents of the bins. Many of which are in isolated areas and used by the public as well as boaters.

 

It may well simply be a case of "Oh, we didn't think of that!".

 

 

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30 minutes ago, IanD said:

I haven't seen anything yet...

 

 

39 minutes ago, IanD said:

Just waiting for somebody to reply with "But CaRT said it was OK!"... ?

 

 

29 minutes ago, Dyertribe said:

They buy in the services of a Waste removal company to deal with the refuse generated by users of the waterways they control. These contractors have told CRT that if they continue to allow human faeces to be deposited in their bins they will withdraw their services.

 

 

It is not the contractors saying they will not do it, it is the law.

 

Despite DrBob saying it in not against the law the links he has posted himself explains that it is (see page 2)

 

In Summary (for commercial bins not home / domestic bins)

 

A small quantity (up to 7kgs) of 'offensive waste' in one special Tiger striped bag, per bin, per collection is allowed.

 

C&RT have no control over :

 

What bags are used

How many bags go into each bin

 

Therefore they cannot comply with the law and must therefore withdraw the facility.

 

BWML (and many other marinas) were aware of this some years ago when they banned boats with Composting toilets using their marinas. C&RT could have easily introduced some rules regarding composting toilets.

 

C&RT cannot make the issue of a licence subject to NOT having a composting toilet as the conditions are enschrined in Law, however, they could amend the BSS to include compoasting toilets must not be fitted, the same as they did with sea toilets.

You would only get a BSSC  if you do not have a composting toilet, you can only get a LIcence if you have a BSSC.

 

Sorted !

 

 

 

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16 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

It may well simply be a case of "Oh, we didn't think of that!".

 

 

Or it may be the case that only one poo bag into a complete bin is just OK but multiple ones aren't, so it was OK so long as binners were few and far between.

 

[edit : just confirmed by Alan]

 

Either way, CaRT have said "the latest advice we have been given is that this method of disposal cannot be used any more". So unless somebody knows better than CaRT and whoever is providing this advice, this has to stop.

 

[edit : also just confirmed by Alan]

Edited by IanD
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9 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

C&RT cannot make the issue of a licence subject to NOT having a composting toilet as the conditions are enschrined in Law, however, they could amend the BSS to include compoasting toilets must not be fitted, the same as they did with sea toilets.

 

Which regulation is that please Alan?

 

It's not what 9.2.1 says.

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1 minute ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Which regulation is that please Alan?

 

It's not what 9.2.1 says.

 

I accept that my wording was 'sloppy'. The BSS does not stipulate sea toilets must not be fitted.

 

The BSS requires Sea toilets by be 'locked off' with a 'closeable valve'.

 

How would you suggest restricting the use of Composting toilets ?

('Remove the bucket' whilst having the BSS carried out, then when the examiner has gone put the bucket back. ?)

 

The difference between re-activating is :

 

Re-activating a sea toilet and discharging directly into the canal means the boater has broken the law and can be subjected to fines / court action instigated by the EA.

 

Re-activating the composting toilet and putting the part-composted poop into the C&RT bins, then means that C&RT are the guilty party for not following their Duty Of care under the Waste Transfer Regulations. As I cut & pasted some pages ago there have been example of fines for repeatedly 'putting the wrong stuff in the bins of up to £250,000

 

The people dumping the crap in the bins show they have no social responsibility and probably won't give a thought that every time C&RT pays a fine, it is less money for maintenance.

 

I rarely support C&RT but in this instance believe they are only doing what they can to comply with the Law.

Its a shame (and due to incompetence) that it has been allowed to happen but we are where we are.

 

Back to the question - "what would you propose ?"

 

 

 

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