C&RT say don't empty your compost toilet in our bins.

[IanD]

6 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

You only seem able to see one problem here.  That of waste disposal.  Nobody is arguing that the waste disposal issue isn't a problem, so I'm not sure why you keep banging on about it and repeating yourself.

 

But there are other problems which have been caused too.  One of these is the problem of boaters being diadvantaged.  Now there may not be a way to avoid that disadvantage, but it's undeniable that CRT have played their part in causing it.  Therefore, those people who have been disadvantaged deserve, as a minimum, a proper explanation.  And ideally an apology.  They've had none of that. 

Yes they deserve a proper explanation -- but is it all CaRT's fault, or is it that they couldn't read, or just ignored the bits they didn't want to hear?

 

Possibly an apology, though CaRT did what they thought was right at the time -- hindsight is wonderful, isn't it?

 

I keep going on about it because it is the entire problem that we're discussing, and to which a solution is urgently needed.

Edited February 24, 2021 by IanD

[doratheexplorer]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I've done a search on the C&RT webiste using 'composting toilet' as the search parameter.

Every hit says the new 'guidance' (maybe they have gone thru the website and modified all mentions of it in the last few days)

 

Example -

 

Boating Team Blog :

Composting toilets

Composting toilets are increasing in popularity, particularly in areas with few facilities or very busy areas that suffer from frequently malfunctioning pump-out machines or Elsan units. Composting can be a great solution, but there are some important considerations for people choosing this approach.

The main thing to consider with compost toilets on boats is having sufficient space to compost solids correctly. Solids can take anything from three months to twelve months to break down into harmless compost. And as anyone who has ever lived on a boat for any length of time will tell you, space is always at a premium. 

As the waste from a composting toilet may not have enough time to decompose sufficiently on board the boat before it needs emptying, this waste will still need to be disposed of in an appropriate way – for example a suitable composting site away from the canal. It should not be put in our bins – and absolutely must not be disposed of on or near the towpaths. Liquid waste can be emptied down an Elsan point. With the increasing popularity of composting toilets, we are hoping to provide facilities for solid waste from composting loos in future. Please don’t ever dump liquid and solid waste on the towpath or into the water. 

 

Greener Boating :

Huge advances have been made in recent years in composting toilets that are suitable for boats, but they are not to everyone’s taste and you'll still need to dispose of solids and liquids safely and without harming the environment.

Nothing about fines there, which was the thing I was responding to.

3 minutes ago, IanD said:

Yes they deserve a proper explanation.  Possibly an apology, though CaRT did what they thought was right at the time -- hindsight is wonderful, isn't it?

 

 

Thank you.  Then we're in agreement.

 

You can keep repeating yourself about the waste disposal issue now, which nobody is arguing against.

[IanD]

3 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Nothing about fines there, which was the thing I was responding to.

Possibly because there would be legal consequences for CaRT, especially if they take legal action later on. Or maybe just because the new advice is more sensible than the old advice, and they should't really need to explain *why* people shouldn't put bagged sh*t into general waste bins?

Edited February 24, 2021 by IanD

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, doratheexplorer said:

Nothing about fines there, which was the thing I was responding to.

 

The boaters will not be fined by the EA, it is C&RT who are commiting the offence by allowing it.

They are not meeting the Duty Of Care requirements that are imposed on all businesses that produce waste.

 

At a slight tangent, many years ago when I was working for a living, the company had a big problem with staff putting their domestic waste in the Biffa bins. This was against the agreement in the contraxt which specified what was allowed and what was not allowed - "Domestic waste" was not allowed.

 

[Chagall]

13 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

But they were told it was OK to behave like that by C&RT, until a month ago they were doing nothing wrong in C&RTs eyes. I would add I think its discussing to put it in bins but the people who have installed these toilets were IMO badly advised.

Exactly, they are not "idiots" or "half-wits"  

[LadyG]

I wonder what are the 'huge advances in composting toilets'? 

A shit box is a shit box, a black bag is a black bag.

Since Victoria times, and before, men used to separate piss and no huge advances

[Arthur Marshall]

3 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

You only seem able to see one problem here.  That of waste disposal.  Nobody is arguing that the waste disposal issue isn't a problem, so I'm not sure why you keep banging on about it and repeating yourself.

 

But there are other problems which have been caused too.  One of these is the problem of boaters being diadvantaged.  Now there may not be a way to avoid that disadvantage, but it's undeniable that CRT have played their part in causing it.  Therefore, those people who have been disadvantaged deserve, as a minimum, a proper explanation.  And ideally an apology.  They've had none of that. 

The simple fact is that boaters who are "disadvantaged" have done it to themselves. The grey bit between the ears is there for a reason, though plenty don't seem to bother with it. It's no different to someone trying to con CRT that moving three miles in each direction twice a year is a continuous cruise and then whinging when their licence gets revoked.

We could all get away with the latter thirty years ago, because hardly anyone did it. You can't now.

No one deserves an apology for being stupid. It's a learning curve - read the instructions, and if you can't follow them, don't just depend on somebody else's advice - it might turn out to be wrong. You really have to take responsibility for your own actions, and  certainly for your own output. It's no use moaning that you should be allowed to carry on being irresponsible and putting others at risk, and that "it isn't fair".

Grow up, life isn't.

 

[doratheexplorer]

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

 

The boaters will not be fined by the EA, it is C&RT who are commiting the offence by allowing it. I never said they would.

They are not meeting the Duty Of Care requirements that are imposed on all businesses that produce waste.

 

At a slight tangent, many years ago when I was working for a living, the company had a big problem with staff putting their domestic waste in the Biffa bins. This was against the agreement in the contraxt which specified what was allowed and what was not allowed - "Domestic waste" was not allowed.

 

The point of what I wrote, is that those affected boaters are more likely to calm down if they've had a proper explanation.

 

If you're right about CRT being fined, then why don't they announce that.  At least then people would understand properly the reason for the change of guidance.  People like the youtuber are cross because this change has been sneaked in without any proper consultation, explanation and is contrary to previous guidance.

[LadyG]

5 minutes ago, IanD said:

Possibly because there would be legal consequences for CaRT, especially if they take legal action later on. Or maybe just because the new advice is more sensible than the old advice, and they should't really need to explain *why* people shouldn't put bagged sh*t into general waste bins?

I thought we knew this, it's bio hazardous waste. 

Not all waste goes to landfill, some is sorted, faecal material contaminates workers and other  re-cyclable wastes. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 24, 2021 by LadyG

[IanD]

Just now, Chagall said:

Exactly, they are not "idiots" or "half-wits"  

So did they not read "should be composted", and thought that a "composting" toilet meant you didn't need to compost the waste? Really?

 

Insults to their intelligence may be wrong and unfair -- what they certainly were was selfish, ignoring "composting" and making their poo somebody else's problem.

[doratheexplorer]

2 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

The simple fact is that boaters who are "disadvantaged" have done it to themselves. The grey bit between the ears is there for a reason, though plenty don't seem to bother with it. It's no different to someone trying to con CRT that moving three miles in each direction twice a year is a continuous cruise and then whinging when their licence gets revoked.

We could all get away with the latter thirty years ago, because hardly anyone did it. You can't now.

No one deserves an apology for being stupid. It's a learning curve - read the instructions, and if you can't follow them, don't just depend on somebody else's advice - it might turn out to be wrong. You really have to take responsibility for your own actions, and  certainly for your own output. It's no use moaning that you should be allowed to carry on being irresponsible and putting others at risk, and that "it isn't fair".

Grow up, life isn't.

 

The boaters bear some responsibilty, but CRT bear some too.  Part of growing up is to see the complexity and nuance in a situation.  I suggest you try it some time.

 

All I'm asking is that CRT acknowledge and explain their role in this.

[Arthur Marshall]

2 minutes ago, Chagall said:

Exactly, they are not "idiots" or "half-wits"  

They may be illiterate, though, because they obviously can't read the instructions on the stuff they bought. CRT are a navigation authority, not an expert in waste disposal. Would you accept boating advice from your dustman? Would you want a CRT office bod to tell you how to weld your boat? 

It's always someone else's fault, isn't it?

[Hudds Lad]

3 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I wonder what are the 'huge advances in composting toilets'?

 

the huge advances are more companies springing up making expensive buckets with a nice outer shell and an electric fan and some ducting and then charging like a wounded rhino for their product.  

[IanD]

1 minute ago, Arthur Marshall said:

They may be illiterate, though, because they obviously can't read the instructions on the stuff they bought. CRT are a navigation authority, not an expert in waste disposal. Would you accept boating advice from your dustman? Would you want a CRT office bod to tell you how to weld your boat? 

It's always someone else's fault, isn't it?

And it's not only somebody else's fault, they have to fix it. And pay for it by compensating me for my own lack of thinking and/or selfishness.

 

Is that a fair summary?

[doratheexplorer]

3 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

They may be illiterate, though, because they obviously can't read the instructions on the stuff they bought. CRT are a navigation authority, not an expert in waste disposal. Would you accept boating advice from your dustman? Would you want a CRT office bod to tell you how to weld your boat? 

It's always someone else's fault, isn't it?

And yet, many on here are now accepting CRT's updated advice.

[IanD]

Meanwhile, back at the ranch...

 

Does anyone have any ideas about what CaRT can do to stop bin'n'bagging continuing, and enforce this? Because asking nicely doesn't look likely to work...

 

11 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

And yet, many on here are now accepting CRT's updated advice.

But the ones who aren't (or don't want to) are making a lot more noise about it -- maybe not on here (they've all gone very quiet -- where is Dr. Bob?), but the vlogs are on fire...

 

And to be honest, I don't see any evidence that bag'n'binners are suddenly building and maintaining landside compost heaps, or already ripping out their composting toilets. That's what "accepting the advice" means, not just going quiet about your toilet online.

Edited February 24, 2021 by IanD

[Chagall]

7 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

They may be illiterate, though, because they obviously can't read the instructions on the stuff they bought. CRT are a navigation authority, not an expert in waste disposal. Would you accept boating advice from your dustman? Would you want a CRT office bod to tell you how to weld your boat? 

It's always someone else's fault, isn't it?

There's a certain amount of smug howling at the moon going on here, so I'll leave you to carry on hoisting it on your own retard. 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

Meanwhile, back at the ranch...

 

Does anyone have any ideas about what CaRT can do to stop bin'n'bagging continuing, and enforce this?

 

 

Whilst boats are legally allowed to fit them, and I can see no way they can easily be 'banned', and, whilst C&RT provide bins 'in the middle of nowhere' that are not monitored, and whilst the boaters who are doing this will continue to do it, (because they cannot be caught) I can see no method of enforcement.

[IanD]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Whilst boats are legally allowed to fit them, and I can see no way they can easily be 'banned', and, whilst C&RT provide bins 'in the middle of nowhere' that are not monitored, and whilst the boaters who are doing this will continue to do it, (because they cannot be caught) I can see no method of enforcement.

But you're our resident expert in digging into and publishing the details of CaRT/marine regulations, I'm sure you can find a way if you try ?

 

How did CaRT ban sea toilets from discharging into the canals? How do they stop people pumping-out onto the towpath/hedges?

Edited February 24, 2021 by IanD

[LadyG]

10 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

And yet, many on here are now accepting CRT's updated advice.

Not sure about 'advice', if it's optional, those who want to bag and bin will continue to do so, and CRT will still be under the gun. 'Boaters' are no more reasonable than the rest of the population......

Statutory Regulations change, people may moan and groan, but unless boaters are prepared to compost, and they may need to keep records as businesses have to........ 

[Hudds Lad]

9 minutes ago, IanD said:

Meanwhile, back at the ranch...

 

Does anyone have any ideas about what CaRT can do to stop bin'n'bagging continuing, and enforce this? Because asking nicely doesn't look likely to work...

 

i'd imagine exactly nothing, only way would possibly be to subcontract it out like they do for Mooring enforcement in some places or firms like Kingdom who some Councils trialled as litter enforcement.

it's then in their interest to find and fine anyone breaking the laws as that's how they get paid, which has shown to make their "enforcement officers" massively over zealous.

will all boil down to if they can make it a law not to have those type of loos, possibly why there's been no further announcements if they are seeking legal advice on the matter, law-types don't move quick if they can bill by the hour  

[matty40s]

8 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

How did CaRT ban sea toilets from discharging into the canals? How do they stop people pumping-out onto the towpath/hedges?

A local boater was caught breaking the ice to empty his cassette 2 weeks ago, when told he shouldnt do that, said he had been doing it for years. Was reported to CRT

[IanD]

1 minute ago, LadyG said:

Not sure about 'advice', if it's optional, those who want to bag and bin will continue to do so, and CRT will still be under the gun. 'Boaters' are no more reasonable than the rest of the population......

 

It's not optional, CaRT now say "should not be put into our bins".

 

But there's no legal enforcement behind this, which is why it doesn't say "must". Unfortunately it's the same distinction as between government statements about Covid ("you should do xxx") and the law ("you must not do xxx") which is inevitably backed up by a legally enforceable penalty.

 

So legally speaking it's advice, even though it's not optional.

 

Alan confirmed what I said, the only way to stop the bin'n'baggers is to have some legal teeth behind the advice. But this can't depend on detection of poo-dumping because this is impossible to police, the only option I can see is to somehow ban these toilets being fitted to boats on canals. The problem for CaRT (and the 99%) is to find a legal way of doing this...

[LadyG]

DNA testing will identify samples, I can see that might cause outrage. 

If Biffa refuse to collect contaminated bins, the CRT are in big trouble, but presumably the CRT are not acting illegally. 

Scenario is that Biffa remove all their bins, everything gets dumped and mixed, rats and flies, public health complaints. CRT fined. 

Edited February 24, 2021 by LadyG

[IanD]

6 minutes ago, matty40s said:

A local boater was caught breaking the ice to empty his cassette 2 weeks ago, when told he shouldnt do that, said he had been doing it for years. Was reported to CRT

There will always be law-breakers; the problem we have here is that there is no law, so there's not even any penalty for ignoring CaRT's updated advice... ?

2 minutes ago, LadyG said:

DNA testing will identify samples, I can see that might cause outrage. 

 

Don't need to do that; everyone will be chipped after they've had the Covid vaccinations, so the guvmint can detect them dumping the poo by having their chip talk to the ones in the Biffa bin and the bin-bags ?

Edited February 24, 2021 by IanD