C&RT say don't empty your compost toilet in our bins.

[IanD]

29 minutes ago, MartynG said:

A  sea toilet receives a BSS pass even if no holding tank is fitted.

On lumpy water boats The sea toilets  are always fitted with a sea cock .

 

The  environmental permitting regulations says discharge of sewage from vessels  into rivers is permitted.

This can only be over ruled by a bylaw such as applicable to the canals and some rivers.

 

 

A compositing toilet which has no means of discharging directly  to the water  is compliant with the BSS

 

 

 

The Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) Regulations 2016

• UK Statutory Instruments
• 2016 No. 1154
• SCHEDULE 21
• Paragraph 3

 

Therefore a composting toilet may be discharged to a river where no bylaw prevents it.

Into a river, not a canal...

1 hour ago, LadyG said:

I can see that CRT would have had to insist on a black water disposal unit, but did they actually ban  sea cocks, surely some boats have both? I've seen a few barges that have sea cocks at Goole, and seem to open them from time to time!

Rivers yes, canals no...

[robtheplod]

Aussie Boater is not happy....

 

 

[LadyG]

Poor man, he thinks he's entitled!

Nice kettle.

[Alan de Enfield]

Man-up & accept things evolve and change as new information comes to light.

 

He is totally wrong to advise "if you want a composting toilet just do it, it is not C&RT policy just one guys opinion"

 

Newbies watching blogs and you-tube stuff like this, and followng his advice, are literally going to be in the sh$t.

 

C&RT were wrong 3 years ago to give the information they gave (not having done proper investigation into the law), but now the requirement to cease using bins is being forced on them by the Waste Carrier and the law. C&RT have no alternative but to comply.

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, robtheplod said:

Aussie Boater is not happy....

 

 

So he wants a public consultation, and the change of policy incorporated in the terms and conditions.

And then what? He still won't be able to dump his shit in CRT's bins!

[Midnight]

He should know where we stand on the topic. He has a COMPOST toilet. Two week old Bag'n'bin it isn't compost and it's not legal - simples!  

 

 Twelve months to turn to compost isn't it? Although the manual that came with Big Jimmy's compost toilet says something like,  "... for at least 3 months then it's okay to spread on your roses but not on your vegetable patch".
 

I can't see CaRT introducing composting bins, more likely a ban via the BSS which isn't fair on those who do compost correctly.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, Midnight said:

He should know where we stand on the topic. He has a COMPOST toilet. Two week old Bag'n'bin it isn't compost

 

He knows that (as do probably all composters) and says it is not possible to correctly use a composting toilet on a boat.

 

I can, to some extent, understand his (and others) point that C&RT allowed it, they paid £1000 to fit a toilet and now C&RT say you cannot use our bins ( NOT that you cannot use the toilet).

Things evolve, sh$t happens - suck it up (not literally)  accept that C&RT were acting illegally** and move on.

 

 

** remember the 'roving mooring passes' that C&RT introduced and folks bought, then to find out that there use was illegal and they had to be withdrawn. This is not the 1st time that C&RT push the boundaries and get caught-out.

[mrsmelly]

2 hours ago, robtheplod said:

Aussie Boater is not happy....

 

Another newby blovlogwogger trying to reinvent the wheel and change perfectly acceptable easy systems such as cassette and pump out. The clue is in the word COMPOST. Of course the modern waffle being brought in is " Waterless toilet "  to attempt to make them sound a viable proposition. Nowt at all wrong with composting bogs in the right scenario.

[Machpoint005]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Newbies watching blogs and you-tube stuff like this ...

 

... would be better off doing proper research before shelling out hard cash. Blogs and YouTube are a form of research, but they are hardly definitive!

[doratheexplorer]

3 hours ago, robtheplod said:

Aussie Boater is not happy....

 

 

He's absolutely right to be unhappy.  CRT have behaved terribly over this, as they always do.

[doratheexplorer]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

C&RT were wrong 3 years ago to give the information they gave (not having done proper investigation into the law), but now the requirement to cease using bins is being forced on them by the Waste Carrier and the law. C&RT have no alternative but to comply.

You don't know this for sure.  You're just guessing.  If this is because CRT have no choice then why have they not announced it properly, explaining what's changed?  I'd guess that half of all boaters never read the boaters update.  Why have they said nothing about updating T&Cs or the BSS?  At the very least, why have they not apologised for the unnecessary cost which they've forced on boaters who had carefully followed the rules which CRT themselves set?

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

He's absolutely right to be unhappy.  CRT have behaved terribly over this, as they always do.

 

They have, but what alternative do they have ?

What proposal do you have ?

 

They have been told to immediately stop, and any consultation will not change that requirement, continued defiance will simply result in C&RT being forced to pay fines. They have had the 'verbal warning'.

[IanD]

33 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

He knows that (as do probably all composters) and says it is not possible to correctly use a composting toilet on a boat.

 

I can, to some extent, understand his (and others) point that C&RT allowed it, they paid £1000 to fit a toilet and now C&RT say you cannot use our bins ( NOT that you cannot use the toilet).

Things evolve, sh$t happens - suck it up (not literally)  accept that C&RT were acting illegally** and move on.

 

 

** remember the 'roving mooring passes' that C&RT introduced and folks bought, then to find out that there use was illegal and they had to be withdrawn. This is not the 1st time that C&RT push the boundaries and get caught-out.

I don't think CaRT were acting illegally when the first few boaters asked the question and the policy was introduced -- with so few of them the odds are that there would never be more than one poo bag in a bin, so the waste was legal.

 

The problem is that this is no longer the case because more and more people are bag'n'binning; it would be accurate to say that they're the ones that have actually caused the illegal situation to happen, after all it's their poo. Unfortunately for CaRT they're the ones on the legal hook, not the offending boaters, so they have been forced to stop this carrying on by changing the rules.

 

This is no different to other cases where people bought something based on advice/opinion at the time, and then later on circumstances changed and their choice was now seen to be wrong -- diesel cars is a perfect example.

 

I'd have more sympathy if not for the fact that even though CaRT Advice to Boaters said "you can double bag it and put it in our bins" the sentence immediately before said "...should be composted".

 

Together with the generally accepted term for the product ("composting toilet") nobody can seriously claim that they didn't know what they should have been doing with their waste right from day one, even if they were allowed to get away with pretending this wasn't the case because CaRT said they could.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

You don't know this for sure.  You're just guessing. 

 

I know what the law says, I knw the interpretaion that was put on the law by marinas (and others) years ago, I know that C&RT did not abide by the law.

 

Have C&RT not said that they have been advised to stop the practice ?

[Arthur Marshall]

3 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

He's absolutely right to be unhappy.  CRT have behaved terribly over this, as they always do.

I don't see that. The basic problem is people believing, as too many do, that everything they do wrong is someone else's problem. From chewing gum on pavements and dog crap bags hung on fences to non-composted human excreta dumped in general waste bins. It's blatantly obvious that a composting bog doesn't produce usable and safe compost in a few weeks, those who bought them to save a few bob at the pumpout were just trying to shift the unpleasant business of dealing with their muck onto someone else.

CRT, for once, tried to be helpful and accommodate these idiots. That was their mistake.

[doratheexplorer]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

I don't think CaRT were acting illegally when the first few boaters asked the question and the policy was introduced -- with so few of them the odds are that there would never be more than one poo bag in a bin, so the waste was legal.

 

The problem is that this is no longer the case because more and more people are bag'n'binning; it would be accurate to say that they're the ones that have actually caused the illegal situation to happen, after all it's their poo. Unfortunately for CaRT they're the ones on the legal hook, not the offending boaters, so they have been forced to stop this carrying on by changing the rules.

 

This is no different to other cases where people bought something based on advice/opinion at the time, and then later on circumstances changed and their choice was now seen to be wrong -- diesel cars is a perfect example. Diesel cars haven't been banned.  So nothing like a perfect example.

 

I'd have more sympathy if not for the fact that even though CaRT Advice to Boaters said "you can double bag it and put it in our bins" the sentence immediately before said "...should be composted".

 

Together with the generally accepted term for the product ("composting toilet") nobody can seriously claim that they didn't know what they should have been doing with their waste right from day one, even if they were allowed to get away with pretending this wasn't the case because CaRT said they could.

 

 

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I know what the law says, I knw the interpretaion that was put on the law by marinas (and others) years ago, I know that C&RT did not abide by the law.

 

Have C&RT not said that they have been advised to stop the practice ?

They haven't clearly explained the change in 'policy'.  "Been advised" is typical CRT vagueness.

1 minute ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I don't see that. The basic problem is people believing, as too many do, that everything they do wrong is someone else's problem. From chewing gum on pavements and dog crap bags hung on fences to non-composted human excreta dumped in general waste bins. It's blatantly obvious that a composting bog doesn't produce usable and safe compost in a few weeks, those who bought them to save a few bob at the pumpout were just trying to shift the unpleasant business of dealing with their muck onto someone else.

CRT, for once, tried to be helpful and accommodate these idiots. That was their mistake.

So you admit that CRT made a mistake.

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

They have, but what alternative do they have ?

What proposal do you have ?

 

They have been told to immediately stop, and any consultation will not change that requirement, continued defiance will simply result in C&RT being forced to pay fines. They have had the 'verbal warning'.

I'll ask my questions again:

 

If this is because CRT have no choice then why have they not announced it properly, explaining what's changed?  I'd guess that half of all boaters never read the boaters update.  Why have they said nothing about updating T&Cs or the BSS?  At the very least, why have they not apologised for the unnecessary cost which they've forced on boaters who had carefully followed the rules which CRT themselves set?

[doratheexplorer]

8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

continued defiance will simply result in C&RT being forced to pay fines.

If that's true then why have CRT not announced that?

[IanD]

37 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

They have, but what alternative do they have ?

What proposal do you have ?

 

They have been told to immediately stop, and any consultation will not change that requirement, continued defiance will simply result in C&RT being forced to pay fines. They have had the 'verbal warning'.

 

What we have here is effectively a war; on one side are the "1%" (the small number of poo-baggers who think they should be entitled to carry on doing it), on the other side are the "99%" (all the rest of the 30k+ boaters who don't do this and will be adversely affected if it continues, plus CaRT).

 

I'm sure a lot of the 99% think "Why should I care?" -- well, because one way or another you're going to covered when the sh*t hits the fan, and you won't like it.

 

There are only 3 ways I can see out of this mess:

 

1. CaRT bin contents are reclassified as "hazardous waste" (or whatever the term is) and the cost of disposing of it goes through the roof as a consequence (maybe a specialist waste disposal company is needed). Apart from being terribly non-green (can't be sorted/recycled, goes to specialist landfill/incineration) the cost of this will have to be added onto the license fee paid by everybody -- a quick back-of-envelope estimate (does anyone have any better figures?) is this might cost everyone something like fifty or a hundred quid a year. Which means the 99% are paying a pound or two a week to save the 1% a fiver a week on pumpouts, or less on cassettes. I don't need to point out how unpopular this will be with the 99%, even if the 1% are very happy...

 

2. CaRT withdraw all rubbish collection facilities, and the canal system turns into a 2000 mile long flytipping site. Nobody -- CaRT or the 99% or the 1% -- will be happy ?

 

3. The 1% stop bagging and binning, which makes them unhappy, but CaRT and the 99% are happy. But this needs to really stop which means some kind of enforcement, otherwise the 1% will just carry on dumping poo when nobody's looking.

 

There's only one acceptable option (#3) for the canals, the question is how to make it happen.

 

Regulation which is enforceable by CaRT is the obvious option; I know people keep giving reasons why this can't legally be done, but I might suggest that armchair lawyer time would be better spent trying to think of a way to make it possible instead of objecting?

 

It should be obvious to even the veteran CaRT-haters that for once the 99% and CaRT are on the same side here, so surely it would be better to put the hate aside and help CaRT find a solution than carry on complaining about what a terrible organisation they are and how it's all their fault and things were better in the old days...

 

If there really is no legal solution -- which I don't believe, what stops people pumping 50 gallons of liquified sh*t form their pumpout tank onto the towpath or a hedge bottom? -- then we're down to either the scorn of public opinion (the 99% send the 1% to Coventry) or the lynch mob (the 1% wake up to find their well decks full of the Biffa bin contents). Or maybe they find a six-pointed brown star of sh*t on their front door -- hang on, that sounds kind of familiar... ?

 

Should be perfectly possible nowadays with social media, it wouldn't be difficult to find out which boats have composting toilets and then set up a PooTracker group on Facebook or similar to find out where they all are and who to target next. It works for right-wing hate groups, should work just as well for boaters...

 

But I don't really think that vigilante justice ("poo-and-feathering") is what most people are looking for, so I'd strongly encourage everyone to try and come up with a workable and enforceable solution to the problem ?

28 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

If that's true then why have CRT not announced that?

And how would that help solve the problem?

34 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I don't see that. The basic problem is people believing, as too many do, that everything they do wrong is someone else's problem. From chewing gum on pavements and dog crap bags hung on fences to non-composted human excreta dumped in general waste bins. It's blatantly obvious that a composting bog doesn't produce usable and safe compost in a few weeks, those who bought them to save a few bob at the pumpout were just trying to shift the unpleasant business of dealing with their muck onto someone else.

CRT, for once, tried to be helpful and accommodate these idiots. That was their mistake.

A succinct and accurate summary.

Edited February 24, 2021 by IanD

[LadyG]

I think a lot of folks who bought a 'conpostaloo' actually thought it was 'green', knowing nothing about waste disposal, nothing about 'gardening', they thought the muck they produced would end up in someone's '  garden. They were wrong.

The guy at CRT who decided to allow double black bagging of shit, and encouraged it,  was also wrong.

CRT did not ask anyone who knew anything about household hygiene,, public health, or hazardous waste disposal. 

There are still people buying 'composashitters' for boats, they are idiots. Those who bought them previously were only half-wits, they need to buy a Portapotti , £65.99 and stop moaning. They bought Betamax, but industry went VHS.

 

Edited February 24, 2021 by LadyG

[ditchcrawler]

51 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I don't see that. The basic problem is people believing, as too many do, that everything they do wrong is someone else's problem. From chewing gum on pavements and dog crap bags hung on fences to non-composted human excreta dumped in general waste bins. It's blatantly obvious that a composting bog doesn't produce usable and safe compost in a few weeks, those who bought them to save a few bob at the pumpout were just trying to shift the unpleasant business of dealing with their muck onto someone else.

CRT, for once, tried to be helpful and accommodate these idiots. That was their mistake.

But they were told it was OK to behave like that by C&RT, until a month ago they were doing nothing wrong in C&RTs eyes. I would add I think its discussing to put it in bins but the people who have installed these toilets were IMO badly advised.

[IanD]

7 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I think a lot of folks who bought a 'conpostaloo' actually thought it was 'green', knowing nothing about waste disposal, nothing about 'gardening', they thought the muck they produced would end up in someone's '  garden. They were wrong.

The guy at CRT who decided to allow double black bagging of shit, and encouraged it,  was also wrong.

CRT did not ask anyone who knew anything about household hygiene,, public health, or hazardous waste disposal. 

There are still people buying 'composashitters' for boats, they are idiots.

 

 

Difficult to see how they could believe that if (like in the posted Aussie vlog) every single one of them got in touch with CaRT and was told "double-bag it and put it in our general waste bins"...

 

CaRT's advice was misguided, it might have seemed OK at the time but turned out not to be as more people took the bag'n'bin option. CaRT saying "sorry, we've changed our minds" won't fix the problem, there certainly won't be any compensation for the poo-baggers which I suspect is what they're hoping for...

[doratheexplorer]

30 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

?

 

And how would that help solve the problem?

 

You only seem able to see one problem here.  That of waste disposal.  Nobody is arguing that the waste disposal issue isn't a problem, so I'm not sure why you keep banging on about it and repeating yourself.

 

But there are other problems which have been caused too.  One of these is the problem of boaters being diadvantaged.  Now there may not be a way to avoid that disadvantage, but it's undeniable that CRT have played their part in causing it.  Therefore, those people who have been disadvantaged deserve, as a minimum, a proper explanation.  And ideally an apology.  They've had none of that. 

[IanD]

2 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

But they were told it was OK to behave like that by C&RT, until a month ago they were doing nothing wrong in C&RTs eyes. I would add I think its discussing to put it in bins but the people who have installed these toilets were IMO badly advised.

Yes they were. Doesn't change the fact that it was advice not any guarantee that this would be allowed forever -- and don't forget "should be composted", maybe poo-baggers can't read?

[haggis]

2 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

But they were told it was OK to behave like that by C&RT, until a month ago they were doing nothing wrong in C&RTs eyes. I would add I think its discussing to put it in bins but the people who have installed these toilets were IMO badly advised.

I presume you mean disgusting rather than discussion ?  Blooming auto correct.

While I agree that people were badly advised (or say they were) but the CRT web site did say that the solids should be composted  before going on to say that they could be put in bins. In my view (possibly wrong again) it is unbelievable that anyone should think it was Ok to dispose of their s*** by chucking it in a bin. 

 

Haggis

[Alan de Enfield]

56 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

If that's true then why have CRT not announced that?

 

I've done a search on the C&RT webiste using 'composting toilet' as the search parameter.

Every hit says the new 'guidance' (maybe they have gone thru the website and modified all mentions of it in the last few days)

 

Example -

 

Boating Team Blog :

Composting toilets

Composting toilets are increasing in popularity, particularly in areas with few facilities or very busy areas that suffer from frequently malfunctioning pump-out machines or Elsan units. Composting can be a great solution, but there are some important considerations for people choosing this approach.

The main thing to consider with compost toilets on boats is having sufficient space to compost solids correctly. Solids can take anything from three months to twelve months to break down into harmless compost. And as anyone who has ever lived on a boat for any length of time will tell you, space is always at a premium. 

As the waste from a composting toilet may not have enough time to decompose sufficiently on board the boat before it needs emptying, this waste will still need to be disposed of in an appropriate way – for example a suitable composting site away from the canal. It should not be put in our bins – and absolutely must not be disposed of on or near the towpaths. Liquid waste can be emptied down an Elsan point. With the increasing popularity of composting toilets, we are hoping to provide facilities for solid waste from composting loos in future. Please don’t ever dump liquid and solid waste on the towpath or into the water. 

 

 

And again under "Greener Boating" :

Huge advances have been made in recent years in composting toilets that are suitable for boats, but they are not to everyone’s taste and you'll still need to dispose of solids and liquids safely and without harming the environment.

Edited February 24, 2021 by Alan de Enfield