C&RT say don't empty your compost toilet in our bins.

[Alway Swilby]

Blimey!!! Here we go again: I'm an idiot, I'm a half wit, I'm illiterate (not sure how I'm typing this!), I can't use my brain, I'm stupid, I'm selfish, I don't think of others etc. etc.  I did read "should not be composted" but didn't stop there, I went on to read in the same sentance "but if you can not do this it's ok to double bag and put in our bins". Ok, CRT shouldn't have said this BUT THEY DID and many people read this and made informed decisions based on CRT's advice. As I said earlier up the thread a few days ago I'm getting seriously fed up of being slagged off on here simply for following the advice of CRT.

CRT have handled this extremely badly. There should have been warning, there wasn't. This has created hate on social media for which CRT are to blame.

As it happens our circumstances have changed and I am now able to take the dry stuff to our house and put it in a spare wheelie bin to compost properly.

[doratheexplorer]

10 minutes ago, Alway Swilby said:

Blimey!!! Here we go again: I'm an idiot, I'm a half wit, I'm illiterate (not sure how I'm typing this!), I can't use my brain, I'm stupid, I'm selfish, I don't think of others etc. etc.  I did read "should not be composted" but didn't stop there, I went on to read in the same sentance "but if you can not do this it's ok to double bag and put in our bins". Ok, CRT shouldn't have said this BUT THEY DID and many people read this and made informed decisions based on CRT's advice. As I said earlier up the thread a few days ago I'm getting seriously fed up of being slagged off on here simply for following the advice of CRT.

CRT have handled this extremely badly. There should have been warning, there wasn't. This has created hate on social media for which CRT are to blame.

As it happens our circumstances have changed and I am now able to take the dry stuff to our house and put it in a spare wheelie bin to compost properly.

Well said, Always. 

 

Not all of us on here are so self-righteous.

 

It's amazing how quick some are to turn on their fellow boaters.  No wonder CRT get away with so much without being held to account.

Edited February 24, 2021 by doratheexplorer

[Midnight]

10 minutes ago, Alway Swilby said:

Blimey!!! Here we go again: I'm an idiot, I'm a half wit, I'm illiterate (not sure how I'm typing this!), I can't use my brain, I'm stupid, I'm selfish, I don't think of others etc. etc.  I did read "should not be composted" but didn't stop there, I went on to read in the same sentance "but if you can not do this it's ok to double bag and put in our bins". Ok, CRT shouldn't have said this BUT THEY DID and many people read this and made informed decisions based on CRT's advice. As I said earlier up the thread a few days ago I'm getting seriously fed up of being slagged off on here simply for following the advice of CRT.

CRT have handled this extremely badly. There should have been warning, there wasn't. This has created hate on social media for which CRT are to blame.

As it happens our circumstances have changed and I am now able to take the dry stuff to our house and put it in a spare wheelie bin to compost properly.

 You are not an idiot or half-wit you just bought what you thought was right for you at the time. Things change, rules change. If you "simply follow the advice of CRT" you NOW should not bag 'n bin it. You have my sympathy but that won't help and the waste disposal rules won't change to enable you to carry on.

[IanD]

9 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Well said, Always. 

 

Not all of us on here are so self-righteous.

 

It's amazingly how quick some are to turn on their fellow boaters.  No wonder CRT get away with so much without being held to account.

Keep blaming CaRT, that'll sort it out...

 

It's nothing to do with being self-righteous, it's more being incredulous that anyone could ever have thought that dumping poo in the bin in a bag was really the right way to get rid of their composting toilet waste, and then tries to come over all innocent and claims they never realised it was any problem when CaRT change the rules. If you read "should be composted" but decided to only take notice of "but if you can not do this it's ok to double bag and put in our bins" then I'm sorry, you made this problem, so own it.

 

With hindsight CaRTs advice to allow binning was wrong, but nobody made you choose which part of the advice to take notice of. But definitely not stupid, doing something that's good for you but where somebody else has to deal with the negative consequences is actually pretty smart, it's exactly what a lot of people and companies strive to do...;-)

Edited February 24, 2021 by IanD

[Alway Swilby]

2 minutes ago, Midnight said:

 You are not an idiot or half-wit you just bought what you thought was right for you at the time. Things change, rules change. If you "simply follow the advice of CRT" you NOW should not bag 'n bin it. You have my sympathy but that won't help and the waste disposal rules won't change to enable you to carry on.

Thank you.

I accept that the rules have changed as do many other boaters with composting toilets. Many will change their ways. There is an online course being run by the "Composting toilets for boats and off grid living" facebook group. It was fully subcribed within two days.

[Alan de Enfield]

 

 

I wonder how many poo-dumpers will suddenly declare that they now have facilities for the correct disposal.

[Alway Swilby]

5 minutes ago, IanD said:

Keep blaming CaRT, that'll sort it out...

 

It's nothing to do with being self-righteous, it's more being incredulous that anyone could ever have thought that dumping poo in the bin in a bag was really the right way to get rid of their composting toilet waste, and then tries to come over all innocent and claims they never realised it was any problem when CaRT change the rules. If you read "should be composted" but decided to only take notice of "but if you can not do this it's ok to double bag and put in our bins" then I'm sorry, you made this problem, so own it.

 

With hindsight CaRTs advice to allow binning was wrong, but nobody made you choose which part of the advice to take notice of. But definitely not stupid, doing something that's good for you but where somebody else has to deal with the negative consequences is actually pretty smart, it's exactly what a lot of people and companies strive to do...;-)

It is all one sentence "Do this, but if you can't, do that" Seems fairly simple to me.

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

I wonder how many poo-dumpers will suddenly declare that they now have facilities for the correct disposal.

Oh FFS!!

 

Bye

 

[Dr Bob]

Ok, let me inject some real thinking into this thread which seems to be dominated by a number of peeps who are doing a lot of guessing. The company I am director of licenses technology to companies to recycle plastic (mixed rigids) from council and industry collected waste. We have plant operating in Newcastle and buy our feedstock from Biffa, Viridor, Shanks etc. I have spent the last 2 weeks trying to get info on where this new CRT thinking comes from – discussing with our guys in Newcastle who source the feedstocks and talk to the waste management companies on a day to day basis.

It is now clear to me what is going on.

This is nothing to do with transfer of waste being illegal as Alan is saying. The laws on transfer of waste are quite vague and done principally under waste codes. My colleagues say that will not be the issue. It is not about 'waste' laws. The CRT decision is nothing to do with that. The problem is that today 90% of 'black bin' waste goes to incineration not landfill. This number has grown significantly in the last 5 years from a position before, where land fill was the predominant method. The crux of the matter and the real driver is that Biffa (and the like) do not want to put this waste into their incinerators. It does not contribute to the energy recovered therefore they dont want it in as it costs them money. This is purely an economic argument. There are no laws that are being broken by it being put in – black bin waste and the stuff coming from the CRT which is as Alan says is industrial waste can go in – it's just it is not good for the incineration process.

What I hadnt realised was the huge swing to incineration means very little is landfilled today. Landfill is more expensive than incineration so the Biffa's of this world will avoid this type of waste going in.

The main driver for the pressure coming on the CRT is therefore economic, not health related.

I talked with the guys about how waste is handled. All of them said that very very little black bag waste is handled by anyone anymore. Only very few actually put black bags on picking lines and almost all this waste goes direct to an incinerator with no human intervention other than driving trucks, mechanical handling etc. They said that the type of waste from a 'solids' toilet would be similar to nappies or dog poo bag in that it is not a hazard for collection or transport but that becomes a significant issue for disposal ie where it ends up. Note this is the 'solids' waste only and not the 'wee & poo' in a bag which is a health hazard if its leaking all over the place.

I've talked about nappies a lot in the past which are classed as offensive waste and could be present in large quantities in dumpsters – but the key here is that Biffa (and the like) are happy to throw them in the incinerators as they have a significant plastic content which is beneficial to the energy recovery. Nappies are therefore seen as beneficial. Not so sure about dog poo. “Dun no” was most of the responses I got.

So there it is! You can choose to believe me or not, but the word out of the professionals who work with waste management companies every day is that Biffa (and the like) will be pushing this through from an economic point of view and nothing to do with health as they don't want to bugger up their incinerator economics.

Me.....I'll just carry on composting which is not affected by the above. I am however fully in agreement with Dora above in looking for answers from the CRT – who I think should rigorously try and defend the current position of waste disposal in light of the commercial push by the waste management companies – who will say its a health decision not economic......ie they will lie! Trust me, that is what my colleagues are telling me. The waste management companies will win though as money talks......and chaos will rain here. Given that background, I wouldn't want to be in CRTs position.

I'm just going to carry on composting.

[tree monkey]

26 minutes ago, Alway Swilby said:

Blimey!!! Here we go again: I'm an idiot, I'm a half wit, I'm illiterate (not sure how I'm typing this!), I can't use my brain, I'm stupid, I'm selfish, I don't think of others etc. etc.  I did read "should not be composted" but didn't stop there, I went on to read in the same sentance "but if you can not do this it's ok to double bag and put in our bins". Ok, CRT shouldn't have said this BUT THEY DID and many people read this and made informed decisions based on CRT's advice. As I said earlier up the thread a few days ago I'm getting seriously fed up of being slagged off on here simply for following the advice of CRT.

CRT have handled this extremely badly. There should have been warning, there wasn't. This has created hate on social media for which CRT are to blame.

As it happens our circumstances have changed and I am now able to take the dry stuff to our house and put it in a spare wheelie bin to compost properly.

Not an idiot at all, acted on advice given and I am sorry you're in the position you are now, I've never liked the idea of bagging and dumping but that's beside the point really, you acted in good faith on advice given 

[Arthur Marshall]

1 hour ago, Chagall said:

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Chagall said:

There's a certain amount of smug howling at the moon going on here, so I'll leave you to carry on hoisting it on your own retard. 

I'm assuming that's a misspelling.

But I don't see anything smug is suggesting that people should think for themselves and use a bit of common sense. If someone tells you a bull in a field won't hurt you, you still might reconsider climbing the fence.

Someone has to empty those bags. There's a reason you don't put untreated, uncomposted human waste on fields, or your hands or breathe it in. They probably don't like it, either.

There's a reason folk preferred composting bogs to bucket & chuck it or pumpouts - they don't like being so close to the product.

So they just let someone else do it, instead. 

 

Edited February 24, 2021 by Arthur Marshall

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Alway Swilby said:

It is all one sentence "Do this, but if you can't, do that" Seems fairly simple to me.

Oh FFS!!

 

Bye

 

 

Do you take everything that your read on the internet at face value, when your brain tells you 'that is not right' do you never think to do some investigation of the actual facts ?

 

How come so many inland waterways business knew exactly what the regulations stated, and banned composting toilets, how many 100's (1000's ?) of boaters knew the advice was wrong but for those that 'it is convenient' you asume its correct.

 

C&RT made a mistake, they now have to correct that and seem to have removed all of the previous advice from their website.

[IanD]

25 minutes ago, Alway Swilby said:

Thank you.

I accept that the rules have changed as do many other boaters with composting toilets. Many will change their ways. There is an online course being run by the "Composting toilets for boats and off grid living" facebook group. It was fully subcribed within two days.

Which is exactly what should happen if you're a responsible composting toilet owner.

 

The biq question is -- without any means of either detecting or punishing irresponsible composting toilet owners who can't (or won't) change their ways, how many owners will be responsible and how many will just say "sod it, they can't catch me or do anything" and carry on regardless?

 

I'm sure most owners on this forum fall into the responsible class since people on here tend to be interested in the canals and aware of what's going on with them. I'm completely unconvinced that the same applies to all composting toilet owners, given what we see is already sometimes done with toilet waste.

Edited February 24, 2021 by IanD

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

This is nothing to do with transfer of waste being illegal as Alan is saying.

 

 

Do you remember posting this extract of the waste regulations :

 

Extract of YOUR post on page 2 :

 

 

 

 

It's all very well Alan saying it is illegal to put the solids output from a composting loo in the bin but Alan this time you are not correct, regardless of what someone from the CRT says.

The government advice is

	Examples	Waste status	Human healthcare	Animal healthcare
Healthcare offensive waste	Outer dressings and protective clothing like masks, gowns and gloves that are not contaminated with body fluids, and sterilised laboratory waste	Non-hazardous	18-01-04	18-02-03
Municipal offensive waste	Hygiene waste and sanitary protection like nappies and incontinence pads	Non-hazardous	20-01-99	20-01-99

You must segregate healthcare offensive waste from both clinical and mixed municipal wastes.

If you’ve produced more than 7kg of municipal offensive waste, or have more than one bag in a collection period, you must segregate it from any mixed municipal waste.

 

 

[Chagall]

6 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

 

 

I'm assuming that's a misspelling.

But I don't see anything smug is suggesting that people should think for themselves and use a bit of common sense. If someone tells you a bull in a field won't hurt you, you still might reconsider climbing the fence.

Someone has to empty those bags. There's a reason you don't put untreated, uncomposted human waste on fields, or your hands or breathe it in. They probably don't like it, either.

There's a reason folk preferred composting bogs to bucket & chuck it or pumpouts - they don't like being so close to the product.

So they just let someone else do it, instead. 

 

No, it wasn't a misspelling. 

[IanD]

24 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Note this is the 'solids' waste only and not the 'wee & poo' in a bag which is a health hazard if its leaking all over the place.

So there it is! You can choose to believe me or not, but the word out of the professionals who work with waste management companies every day is that Biffa (and the like) will be pushing this through from an economic point of view and nothing to do with health as they don't want to bugger up their incinerator economics.

Me.....I'll just carry on composting which is not affected by the above. I am however fully in agreement with Dora above in looking for answers from the CRT – who I think should rigorously try and defend the current position of waste disposal in light of the commercial push by the waste management companies – who will say its a health decision not economic......ie they will lie! Trust me, that is what my colleagues are telling me. The waste management companies will win though as money talks......and chaos will rain here. Given that background, I wouldn't want to be in CRTs position.

I'm just going to carry on composting.

 

Why should CaRT defend an unhygienic practice like putting big bags of largely-unprocessed human waste into their general waste bins?

 

If it is all about the economics not hygeine and Biffa want to charge CaRT more because their bins have lots of poo in, then maybe CaRT should charge a supplemental license fee to compost toilet owners to cover this.

 

Sounds like you're saying that either Biffa should pay for the sins of bad composters (have their economics messed up), or maybe that CaRT should pay (if Biffa charge them more) -- which in the end means that all boaters pay, since if CaRT spend money on this they have less to spend on things like maintenance. In the end if allowing poo-bags in bins cost money, somebody has to pay.

 

I notice that what you're not saying is that the costs should be paid for by the people who are causing the problem ?

Edited February 24, 2021 by IanD

[doratheexplorer]

22 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Ok, let me inject some real thinking into this thread which seems to be dominated by a number of peeps who are doing a lot of guessing. The company I am director of licenses technology to companies to recycle plastic (mixed rigids) from council and industry collected waste. We have plant operating in Newcastle and buy our feedstock from Biffa, Viridor, Shanks etc. I have spent the last 2 weeks trying to get info on where this new CRT thinking comes from – discussing with our guys in Newcastle who source the feedstocks and talk to the waste management companies on a day to day basis.

It is now clear to me what is going on.

This is nothing to do with transfer of waste being illegal as Alan is saying. The laws on transfer of waste are quite vague and done principally under waste codes. My colleagues say that will not be the issue. It is not about 'waste' laws. The CRT decision is nothing to do with that. The problem is that today 90% of 'black bin' waste goes to incineration not landfill. This number has grown significantly in the last 5 years from a position before, where land fill was the predominant method. The crux of the matter and the real driver is that Biffa (and the like) do not want to put this waste into their incinerators. It does not contribute to the energy recovered therefore they dont want it in as it costs them money. This is purely an economic argument. There are no laws that are being broken by it being put in – black bin waste and the stuff coming from the CRT which is as Alan says is industrial waste can go in – it's just it is not good for the incineration process.

What I hadnt realised was the huge swing to incineration means very little is landfilled today. Landfill is more expensive than incineration so the Biffa's of this world will avoid this type of waste going in.

The main driver for the pressure coming on the CRT is therefore economic, not health related.

I talked with the guys about how waste is handled. All of them said that very very little black bag waste is handled by anyone anymore. Only very few actually put black bags on picking lines and almost all this waste goes direct to an incinerator with no human intervention other than driving trucks, mechanical handling etc. They said that the type of waste from a 'solids' toilet would be similar to nappies or dog poo bag in that it is not a hazard for collection or transport but that becomes a significant issue for disposal ie where it ends up. Note this is the 'solids' waste only and not the 'wee & poo' in a bag which is a health hazard if its leaking all over the place.

I've talked about nappies a lot in the past which are classed as offensive waste and could be present in large quantities in dumpsters – but the key here is that Biffa (and the like) are happy to throw them in the incinerators as they have a significant plastic content which is beneficial to the energy recovery. Nappies are therefore seen as beneficial. Not so sure about dog poo. “Dun no” was most of the responses I got.

So there it is! You can choose to believe me or not, but the word out of the professionals who work with waste management companies every day is that Biffa (and the like) will be pushing this through from an economic point of view and nothing to do with health as they don't want to bugger up their incinerator economics.

Me.....I'll just carry on composting which is not affected by the above. I am however fully in agreement with Dora above in looking for answers from the CRT – who I think should rigorously try and defend the current position of waste disposal in light of the commercial push by the waste management companies – who will say its a health decision not economic......ie they will lie! Trust me, that is what my colleagues are telling me. The waste management companies will win though as money talks......and chaos will rain here. Given that background, I wouldn't want to be in CRTs position.

I'm just going to carry on composting.

Thanks Bob.  It's nice to hear from a more reputable source than the tsunami of idle speculation dressed up as fact that we've had so far.

7 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Why should CaRT defend an unhygienic practice like putting big bags of largely-unprocessed human waste into their general waste bins?

 

If it is all about the economics not hygeine and Biffa want to charge CaRT more because their bins have lots of poo in, then CaRT should charge a supplemental license fee to compost toilet owners to cover this.

 

Unless you think that all the other boat owners should pay as well...

There you go.  Problem solved. 

 

Renegotiate with Biffa to take the extra waste.  Then record composting toilets on the BSS and charge the supplement accordingly.  If I were about to get a composting loo and then found out I had to pay a bit extra, then I could make an informed decision on it.  Sounds fine to me.

[IanD]

2 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Thanks Bob.  It's nice to hear from a more reputable source than the tsunami of idle speculation dressed up as fact that we've had so far.

Ooh, nice bit of gaslighting there -- and you get to pay a compliment to someone who agrees with you!

[doratheexplorer]

Just now, IanD said:

Ooh, nice bit of gaslighting there -- and you get to pay a compliment to someone who agrees with you!

Do you actually understand what gaslighting is?

We've heard a report from people in the industry who are quite clear that this is a cost issue, not a hygiene issue.  If that makes you question your previous assumptions and makes you reconsider the next time you dress up those assumptions as fact - then good.  It's not gaslighting though.

 

Bob's post has clarified the issue adequately.  If you want to continue arguing, then be my guest, just be aware that it might make you look foolish.  Sometimes it's wise to know when to keep your counsel.

[IanD]

4 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Thanks Bob.  It's nice to hear from a more reputable source than the tsunami of idle speculation dressed up as fact that we've had so far.

There you go.  Problem solved. 

 

Renegotiate with Biffa to take the extra waste.  Then record composting toilets on the BSS and charge the supplement accordingly.  If I were about to get a composting loo and then found out I had to pay a bit extra, then I could make an informed decision on it.  Sounds fine to me.

That assumes that Biffa will do it, and CaRT agree to pay -- and all this will involve negotiations about just how much poo is in the bins, which will all take time/effort/money on both sides to sort out.

 

And that CaRT can find a legal way of charging extra, and finding out and tracking which boats have them. A lot of effort, all for the benefit of a tiny fraction of boaters who aren't disposing of their waste in the manner they should have been.

 

A much easier option for both CaRT and Biffa is to ban poo in bins.

[doratheexplorer]

Just now, IanD said:

 

A much easier option for both CaRT and Biffa is to ban poo in bins.

Which has already been dismissed as unenforceable.

[IanD]

9 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Do you actually understand what gaslighting is?

We've heard a report from people in the industry who are quite clear that this is a cost issue, not a hygiene issue.  If that makes you question your previous assumptions and makes you reconsider the next time you dress up those assumptions as fact - then good.  It's not gaslighting though.

 

Bob's post has clarified the issue adequately.  If you want to continue arguing, then be my guest, just be aware that it might make you look foolish.  Sometimes it's wise to know when to keep your counsel.

Bob's post is from somebody who may indeed be knowledgeable on the subject but is certainly not unbiased, so excuse me if I take his arguments with a pinch of salt until I hear from other experts who don't own a composting toilet ?

 

Regardless of whether it's a cost or a hygiene issue or both, I struggle to see why CaRT or Biffa should invest a lot of time and effort into solving a problem (in their favour) that affects a small number of people, is largely self-inflicted, and should never have been allowed to happen in the first place -- waste bins are the wrong way to dispose of large quantities of human waste and always have been. It's always been cheaper to sh*t in your dustbin instead of paying sewage charges, but society has deemed this unacceptable, the sewage system is the right place for it.

7 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Which has already been dismissed as unenforceable.

And your enforceable solution is...?

Edited February 24, 2021 by IanD

[redwing]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I've done a search on the C&RT webiste using 'composting toilet' as the search parameter.

Every hit says the new 'guidance' (maybe they have gone thru the website and modified all mentions of it in the last few days)

 

Example -

 

Boating Team Blog :

 

And still the old advice in The Boaters Handbook

 

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/library/141.pdf

 

page 60

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, redwing said:

 

And still the old advice in The Boaters Handbook

 

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/library/141.pdf

 

page 60

 

 

You are correct, but it also says :

 

Composting toilets are intended to do just that – make compost. If that’s not what you are using the waste for or if you can’t keep it stored until it’s ready to use, it will still need to be disposed at an Elsan/ sanitary station (www.canalrivertrust. org.uk/water-and-elsans) – if not properly composted it may still contain dangerous bacteria such as E Coli.

 

There is certainly an inconsistency in advice (even on the same page)

[Dyertribe]

2 hours ago, doratheexplorer said:

You only seem able to see one problem here.  That of waste disposal.  Nobody is arguing that the waste disposal issue isn't a problem, so I'm not sure why you keep banging on about it and repeating yourself.

 

But there are other problems which have been caused too.  One of these is the problem of boaters being diadvantaged.  Now there may not be a way to avoid that disadvantage, but it's undeniable that CRT have played their part in causing it.  Therefore, those people who have been disadvantaged deserve, as a minimum, a proper explanation.  And ideally an apology.  They've had none of that. 

You only seem able to see one problem here, that people have spent money on something they can’t use properly and are now out of pocket.

The issue is that they bought a product which to even the simplest brain was patently not fit for their purpose without breaking or bending hygiene rules. The loophole is closed, they have wasted money. Their problem, not anyone else’s. 

[IanD]

7 minutes ago, redwing said:

 

And still the old advice in The Boaters Handbook

 

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/library/141.pdf

 

page 60

Presumably they'll get round to changing that too when somebody in CaRT cottons on...