Poo'tastic?

[frahkn]

11 hours ago, haggis said:

I find the whole subject confusing ?. I thought that all the devices separate liquid and solid but don't do any composting. That seems to happen when the solids are extracted and put in another container to start composting or they are put in poo bags and put into rubbish bins while you empty the liquid under a hedge or in an elsan. 

One question I haven't seen answered although it has been asked, is which compartment does the poo go into when it is of the more liquid than solid type?

 

Haggis

 

The 'toilet bowl' on ours is designed to allow solids to drop into a container where it is mixed with coir. The design allows pee to flow forward where it passes into a 5 litre bottle which can then be taken and emptied into an elsan or an ordinary toilet. At first a little care is need with positioning for the 'activity' but it quickly becomes straightforward. 

 

We have to empty our liquids bottle every 2 days but carry spares.

[doratheexplorer]

8 hours ago, frahkn said:

 

Yes, certainly.  I initially put the emptied 'product' into a lidded plastic container which I sourced at Wilco. I tend to empty the toilet solids every 3 weeks and can fit two lots of product into a single container. So in theory would fill a container every 6 weeks. I had planned to store these containers in a very large (1700 litres) deck locker on the boat but in practice we tend to go home about once every 6 weeks or so (we spend about half the year on the boat but need to be at home at less than 2 monthly intervals for insurance purposes and for the garden) so the containers are taken home and added to the home compost heap.

 

I say nothing whatsoever against those who use other safe disposal methods but I would not personally choose to do so.

 

Started a thread which has much more detail but can't find it at the moment.

Thanks for your patience.  I'm still a bit confused.  I live aboard so no compost heap. 

 

Does this make sense?:

 

1.  Fill the number 2 container inside the composting toilet.

2. Empty this container into a larger bucket on the deck.

3. When full, tip all this into the CRT bins at the canal side?

 

I'm really struggling to picture all this.  When I tip into the larger bucket, sorry to be blunt, but what is it like?  I have no idea whether to picture a bucket of poo (yuk) or a sort of semi-composted material.  Is it like soil? Does it smell?  Has it all dried out?

 

Then does something more happen while it's in the bigger bucket with a lid?  Does it become more 'composty'?

 

I'm genuinely curious about having one of these, but I can't get past the idea of a big bucket full of sh*t which I then scrape into the commercial sized CRT bins ?

 

 

[Dr Bob]

14 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Thanks for your patience.  I'm still a bit confused.  I live aboard so no compost heap. 

 

Does this make sense?:

 

1.  Fill the number 2 container inside the composting toilet.

2. Empty this container into a larger bucket on the deck.

3. When full, tip all this into the CRT bins at the canal side?

 

I'm really struggling to picture all this.  When I tip into the larger bucket, sorry to be blunt, but what is it like?  I have no idea whether to picture a bucket of poo (yuk) or a sort of semi-composted material.  Is it like soil? Does it smell?  Has it all dried out?

 

Then does something more happen while it's in the bigger bucket with a lid?  Does it become more 'composty'?

 

I'm genuinely curious about having one of these, but I can't get past the idea of a big bucket full of sh*t which I then scrape into the commercial sized CRT bins ?

 

 

No.

When moored for the winter we will compost. When out and about maybe not.

If not composting we will:

1.Fill the number 2 container (5 days)

2. Empty into a biodegradable bag

3. Double bag with biodegradable bag (so a manual picking line will know to leave it alone)

4. Put in bin.

 

The contents after 5 days is circa 5 litres so less than the 7Kg that has appeared on one of the links as being the legal limit of how much waste can be put in a bin. The contents is a mixture of dry (ish) poo and coir/compost. It looks a bit like horse manure  but more crumbly and not as many 'big' bits. Its smells a bit 'earthy' ie soil type smell and not at all poo type smell.  It is chalk and cheese compared to a soiled nappy. It is certainly nowhere near 'offensive' to handle the bucket/bag. You ask whether you should picture a bucket of poo (yuk). No. That is certainly not the case.

Frank has a different toilet that has a 4 week cycle time so there will be some composting going on but he will have 5 times more volume to deal with than me so dumping it to a bin is then a different decision. For the 5 day cycle, the size of the bag to bin looks to be similar to a nappy and we put millions of them in the bin each day.

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

The contents after 5 days is circa 5 litres so less than the 7Kg that has appeared on one of the links as being the legal limit of how much waste can be put in a bin.

 

What happens if 'composting' becomes more prevalent and 2 or 3 or 10 people each start putting 5 litres/ kgs in the bin ?

Presumably the "7kg bin law" is per bin, not per person using the bin ?

[Dr Bob]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

What happens if 'composting' becomes more prevalent and 2 or 3 or 10 people each start putting 5 litres/ kgs in the bin ?

Presumably the "7kg bin law" is per bin, not per person using the bin ?

There was a post a few pages back that had links to some gov web sites. One said you could dispose of up to 7Kg. That must be per person as you do not have a clue what is in the bin before. I guess this is based on nappy or soiled adult incontinence pad disposal. The other gov web site gave no limit. The CRT say double bag it and put it in a bin - with no limit mentioned. It is standard practice to put human waste (and horrible nasty smelling stuff that might have been in a bin for 3-4 weeks) in bins. What comes out of one of these toilets is far less 'nasty'. Council waste processing picking lines are well used to dealing with human waste.

[ditchcrawler]

2 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

 . Council waste processing picking lines are well used to dealing with human waste.

But in this day and age should they need to be, when we should be  a lot more conscious of what goes to land fill and what goes for recycling and how we segregate things. 

[David Mack]

Are you using a bag liner in the no.2 bucket, or are you just transferring the dried poo/coir mix from bucket to storage container and then to bags for dumping?

[frahkn]

1 hour ago, doratheexplorer said:

Thanks for your patience.  I'm still a bit confused.  I live aboard so no compost heap. 

 

Does this make sense?:

 

1.  Fill the number 2 container inside the composting toilet.

2. Empty this container into a larger bucket on the deck.

3. When full, tip all this into the CRT bins at the canal side?

 

I'm really struggling to picture all this.  When I tip into the larger bucket, sorry to be blunt, but what is it like?  I have no idea whether to picture a bucket of poo (yuk) or a sort of semi-composted material.  Is it like soil? Does it smell?  Has it all dried out?

 

Then does something more happen while it's in the bigger bucket with a lid?  Does it become more 'composty'?

 

I'm genuinely curious about having one of these, but I can't get past the idea of a big bucket full of sh*t which I then scrape into the commercial sized CRT bins ?

 

 

I cannot answer as:-    I don't empty into a bucket but into a closed container

                                      I don't keep this container on deck

                                      I don't tip any of it into any bin, I take it home

[doratheexplorer]

33 minutes ago, frahkn said:

I cannot answer as:-    I don't empty into a bucket but into a closed container

                                      I don't keep this container on deck

                                      I don't tip any of it into any bin, I take it home

But you must know what you contents are like when you get it home?  Is there some kind of veil of silence over the true horror of this aspect?  Even watching youtube vids, they all skip over this part.

[tree monkey]

23 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

But you must know what you contents are like when you get it home?  Is there some kind of veil of silence over the true horror of this aspect?  Even watching youtube vids, they all skip over this part.

Every time I have heard the bucket contents described they are compared to dry/peaty or similar to how Bob explains, crumbled horse poo, with very little smell, the smell is "earthy" apparently 

[Dr Bob]

22 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

Every time I have heard the bucket contents described they are compared to dry/peaty or similar to how Bob explains, crumbled horse poo, with very little smell, the smell is "earthy" apparently 

Fazackerly.

 

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

Are you using a bag liner in the no.2 bucket, or are you just transferring the dried poo/coir mix from bucket to storage container and then to bags for dumping?

No bag liner.

On the compoosting toilet which we have (Compoosting is the tradename), the solids bin is basically a plastic bucket with a big stirrer blade in the bottom. You put 3 or 4 big handfulls of compost in. Poo for 5 days (two of us) running the motor to power the stirrer to mix the poo with the compost for a minute each time. After 5 days we just lift the bucket out and tip it into the compost bin. Most of the solids come out. Bang the bottom of the upturned bucket and Bob's your uncle. There is a little bit of stuff left on the bottom of the bucket/stirrer but we just leave that there for the next cycle. After 4 weeks and 6 cycles the bucket doesnt seem to be getting any dirtier. Likely I will hose it down after the first 3 months or so but not sure it is needed. The stirrer mechanism is quite simple so wont get blocked, jammed up etc.

For putting it in the  bin, then stretch the bag over the top of the bucket, turn the bucket upside down, shake and then tie up the bag.

It really isnt a drama.

For the Natures head model, because they go 4-5 weeks per cycle, then 'tipping up the bucket' means taking the toilet out and manhandling the 5-8 times more volume into a much bigger bag - so that becomes more of a task. Because ours is just a small bucket it is so quick and easy. The cycle time is more like what peeps are used to with cassettes but it is so quick to do and none of this carrying 40Kgs of effluent hundreds of yards to the elsan point.

[Dr Bob]

2 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

But in this day and age should they need to be, when we should be  a lot more conscious of what goes to land fill and what goes for recycling and how we segregate things. 

Of course you are right but that then just opens up a whole new can of worms.

How do councils process their waste? Most of what I see on the canals is zero sorting at source so all the waste must go on a picking line. In Cardiff where we lived before, all sorting was done kirbside and blackbags went directly to incineration with no manual intervention.

Black bag waste can go in 2 directions - landfill or incineration. Putting the solids output for landfill in biodegradable bags is not an issue as it will compost in the landfill (anerobicly) which is good and benficial compared to everything else in there. Incineration which is becoming more prevelant in the UK (but much bigger in Europe) just burns the solids mix.

By separating urine from poo though gives a benefit in reducing CO2 and ammonia emissions from the breakdown of urea.

While the world seems happy to dispose of millions of nappies per day via incineration, the odd bag of poo/compost from me isnt going to make any difference and balanced by me not producing any CO2 from my urine, composting siginificant amounts of poo and not driving an ICE car. I think I am in credit?

[frahkn]

3 hours ago, doratheexplorer said:

But you must know what you contents are like when you get it home?  Is there some kind of veil of silence over the true horror of this aspect?  Even watching youtube vids, they all skip over this part.

Yes, I didn't mention this as Dr Bob had already, basically it looks and smells like one year old leaf mould and has the same crumbly look. There are no lumps or obvious "turds". The toilet has an agitator which you turn after each use (using an external handle) and a 12 volt fan which constantly passes air across the material to dry it.

 

Dr Bob correctly says "For the Natures head model, because they go 4-5 weeks per cycle, then 'tipping up the bucket' means taking the toilet out and manhandling the 5-8 times more volume into a much bigger bag - so that becomes more of a task." We empty every 3 weeks because we find the stuff harder to agitate after longer than this. Also we don't tip it out because we have found it easier to empty with a garden trowel and as it doesn't smell unpleasant, why not?

 

Happy to send you a small sample (in a sealed tupperware box) if you wish - but only when we can get back on the boat.

[tree monkey]

8 minutes ago, frahkn said:

 

Happy to send you a small sample (in a sealed tupperware box) if you wish - but only when we can get back on the boat.

Now theres an offer you would only normally find on very special websites 

 

[mrsmelly]

24 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

Now theres an offer you would only normally find on very special websites 

 

Or you could take the 10 seconds every couple of days to empty yer cassette into the elsan point and walk away, job done 

[ditchcrawler]

https://compoosttoilets.com/products/deluxe-compost-toilet-with-urine-diverter-12v-self-stirring

 

[doratheexplorer]

1 hour ago, frahkn said:

Yes, I didn't mention this as Dr Bob had already, basically it looks and smells like one year old leaf mould and has the same crumbly look. There are no lumps or obvious "turds". The toilet has an agitator which you turn after each use (using an external handle) and a 12 volt fan which constantly passes air across the material to dry it.

 

Dr Bob correctly says "For the Natures head model, because they go 4-5 weeks per cycle, then 'tipping up the bucket' means taking the toilet out and manhandling the 5-8 times more volume into a much bigger bag - so that becomes more of a task." We empty every 3 weeks because we find the stuff harder to agitate after longer than this. Also we don't tip it out because we have found it easier to empty with a garden trowel and as it doesn't smell unpleasant, why not?

 

Happy to send you a small sample (in a sealed tupperware box) if you wish - but only when we can get back on the boat.

Thank you but a sample is will not be required. 

 

If it's as inoffensive as you say, I'm now wondering whether it could be distributed under a hedge?

39 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

https://compoosttoilets.com/products/deluxe-compost-toilet-with-urine-diverter-12v-self-stirring

 

Yes, that's the one I'd choose.

[haggis]

3 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Thank you but a sample is will not be required. 

 

If it's as inoffensive as you say, I'm now wondering whether it could be distributed under a hedge?

Yes, that's the one I'd choose.

Looks good but I don't relish the job of rinsing out the poo collecting container ? 

 

haggis

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

I'm now wondering whether it could be distributed under a hedge?

 

 

The list below shows the main diseases that can be passed via the human-faeces route. They are grouped by the type of pathogen involved in disease transmission.

 

Bacteria

Vibrio cholerae (cholera)

Clostridium difficile (pseudomembranous enterocolitis)

Shigella (shigellosis / bacillary dysentery)

Salmonella typhii (typhoid fever)

Vibrio parahaemolyticus

Escherichia coli

Campylobacter

 

Viruses

Hepatitis A

Hepatitis E

Enteroviruses

Norovirus acute gastroenteritis

Poliovirus (poliomyelitis)

Although most human Coronaviruses are not transmitted fecally (Feline coronavirus, in contrast, is), there have also been reports of SARS-CoV-2 being found in stool samples.

Rotavirus gastroenteritis

 

Protozoans

Entameba histolytica (amoebiasis / amoebic dysentery)

Giardia (giardiasis

Cryptosporidium (cryptosporidiosis)

Toxoplasma gondii (toxoplasmosis)

 

Helminths

Tapeworms

Soil-transmitted helminths

Edited February 10, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[tree monkey]

7 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Thank you but a sample is will not be required. 

 

If it's as inoffensive as you say, I'm now wondering whether it could be distributed under a hedge?

Yes, that's the one I'd choose.

Inoffensive it may be but it is dehydrated poo, just add water and I suspect the inoffensive nature of the material might change a touch.

 

Plus of course the various nasties as listed by Alan above 

[doratheexplorer]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

The list below shows the main diseases that can be passed via the human-faeces route. They are grouped by the type of pathogen involved in disease transmission.

 

Bacteria

Vibrio cholerae (cholera)

Clostridium difficile (pseudomembranous enterocolitis)

Shigella (shigellosis / bacillary dysentery)

Salmonella typhii (typhoid fever)

Vibrio parahaemolyticus

Escherichia coli

Campylobacter

 

Viruses

Hepatitis A

Hepatitis E

Enteroviruses

Norovirus acute gastroenteritis

Poliovirus (poliomyelitis)

Although most human Coronaviruses are not transmitted fecally (Feline coronavirus, in contrast, is), there have also been reports of SARS-CoV-2 being found in stool samples.

Rotavirus gastroenteritis

 

Protozoans

Entameba histolytica (amoebiasis / amoebic dysentery)

Giardia (giardiasis

Cryptosporidium (cryptosporidiosis)

Toxoplasma gondii (toxoplasmosis)

 

Helminths

Tapeworms

Soil-transmitted helminths

And how many of those apply to what comes out of the compoost bucket?  Also, how is the risk higher with this than disposing it in a bin, or putting it on a compost heap?

 

I've spent years clearing out my cat's litter tray....

[frahkn]

9 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Thank you but a sample is will not be required. 

 

If it's as inoffensive as you say, I'm now wondering whether it could be distributed under a hedge?

Yes, that's the one I'd choose.

I wouldn't personally, although it appears completely inoffensive, it still contains 50% s..t. I wouldn't want some toddler handling it.

[TheBiscuits]

2 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

Inoffensive it may be but it is dehydrated poo, just add water and I suspect the inoffensive nature of the material might change a touch.

 

Correct.  About the only way to make it worse than just wetting it would be to mix it with urine and keep it at room temperature for between 2 days and 2 months ...

 

Or cassette and holding tank as boaters like to say.

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

And how many of those apply to what comes out of the compoost bucket?  Also, how is the risk higher with this than disposing it in a bin, or putting it on a compost heap?

 

I've spent years clearing out my cat's litter tray....

 

 

No eye deer, but FULL composting or incineration CAN kill all / some pathogens

 

But thats why sewage works have to sterilise there 'sewage cake'

 

indg198.pdf (hse.gov.uk)

 

From Wikipedia

 

Composting[edit]

Main article: Aerated static pile composting

Composting is an aerobic process of mixing sewage sludge with agricultural byproduct sources of carbon such as sawdust, straw or wood chips. In the presence of oxygen, bacteria digesting both the sewage sludge and the plant material generate heat to kill disease-causing microorganisms and parasites.^[12]:20 Maintenance of aerobic conditions with 10 to 15 percent oxygen requires bulking agents allowing air to circulate through the fine sludge solids. Stiff materials like corn cobs, nut shells, shredded tree-pruning waste, or bark from lumber or paper mills better separate sludge for ventilation than softer leaves and lawn clippings.^[1] Light, biologically inert bulking agents like shredded tires may be used to provide structure where small, soft plant materials are the major source of carbon.^[13]

Uniform distribution of pathogen-killing temperatures may be aided by placing an insulating blanket of previously composted sludge over aerated composting piles. Initial moisture content of the composting mixture should be about 50 percent; but temperatures may be inadequate for pathogen reduction where wet sludge or precipitation raises compost moisture content above 60 percent. Composting mixtures may be piled on concrete pads with built-in air ducts to be covered by a layer of unmixed bulking agents. Odors may be minimized by using an aerating blower drawing vacuum through the composting pile via the underlying ducts and exhausting through a filtering pile of previously composted sludge to be replaced when moisture content reaches 70 percent. Liquid accumulating in the underdrain ducting may be returned to the sewage treatment plant; and composting pads may be roofed to provide better moisture content control.^[1]

After a composting interval sufficient for pathogen reduction, composted piles may be screened to recover undigested bulking agents for re-use; and composted solids passing through the screen may be used as a soil amendment material with similar benefits to peat. The optimum initial carbon-to-nitrogen ratio of a composting mixture is between 26-30:1; but the composting ratio of agricultural byproducts may be determined by the amount required to dilute concentrations of toxic chemicals in the sludge to acceptable levels for the intended compost use.^[1] Although toxicity is low in most agricultural byproducts, suburban grass clippings may have residual herbicide levels detrimental to some agricultural uses; and freshly composted wood byproducts may contain phytotoxins inhibiting germination of seedlings until detoxified by soil fungi.^[14]

 

Sludge incineration process schematic (note the emphasis on air quality control).

 

Sewage sludge after drying in a sludge drying bed.

Incineration[edit]

Main article: Sludge incineration

Incineration of sludge is less common because of air emissions concerns and the supplemental fuel (typically natural gas or fuel oil) required to burn the low calorific value sludge and vaporize residual water. On a dry solids basis, the fuel value of sludge varies from about 9,500 British thermal units per pound (980 cal/g) of undigested sewage sludge to 2,500 British thermal units per pound (260 cal/g) of digested primary sludge.^[15] Stepped multiple hearth incinerators with high residence time and fluidized bed incinerators are the most common systems used to combust wastewater sludge. Co-firing in municipal waste-to-energy plants is occasionally done, this option being less expensive assuming the facilities already exist for solid waste and there is no need for auxiliary fuel.^[12]:20–21 Incineration tends to maximize heavy metal concentrations in the remaining solid ash requiring disposal; but the option of returning wet scrubber effluent to the sewage treatment process may reduce air emissions by increasing concentrations of dissolved salts in sewage treatment plant effluent.^[16]

Edited February 10, 2021 by Alan de Enfield

[tree monkey]

Just now, TheBiscuits said:

 

Correct.  About the only way to make it worse than just wetting it would be to mix it with urine and keep it at room temperature for between 2 days and 2 months ...

 

Or cassette and holding tank as boaters like to say.

Yeah ok

 

but I have no plans of dumping my cassette contents under a hedge.

 

it is poo just in a dry state and should be disposed with in an appropriate way