14 day rule suspended

[Jerra]

4 minutes ago, LadyG said:

 I am think is the 'coming to meet wth a single hluseholder', is that rule extant?

 

As far as I know that is a permanent arrangement between households, so it would have to be your brother (or a chosen alternative) each time.    We are in a support bubble with a friend who lives alone and is in poor health so we can meet him and he can meet us.  In effect the three of us become one household as if we all lived together.   Yes that rule does still exist I am not sure how far away they think the two households might live.  Our friend is only 6 miles away.

[Graham Davis]

27 minutes ago, LadyG said:

 

I am absolutely not a risk to others, in the past six days I have not been in a shop, or any form of public transport, I have been to a pub, twice, thre were a maximum of five people in the pub. No one was acting riotously.I have emptied the cassette, wearing gloves and a mask. There is no one living anywhere near here. A few dog walkers every day. There have been no boat movements recently,, as far as I can make out.

I am clearly not typical, but I can't think that getting groups of boaters to gather round services is a good idea.

It's no wonder you have problems with "communicating"!!
Your behaviour above shows that there were numerous times you put yourself "at risk". The problem seems to be that you think you know better than everyone else and are happy to be be selfish.
And gloves just stop you getting shite on your hands!!

[matty40s]

48 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Have you thought of putting it on ebay?

Preloved...

[cheshire~rose]

We needed to move our boat during the last lockdown. It was after the date when live aboard boaters were allowed to move but before leisure boaters were allowed to move but you were allowed to move a boat for maintenance.

 

We had just had bright shiny new steel hatches and slides fitted and they had a coat of blacking slapped on just to stop them turning rust coloured. The boat yard that did the work needed space for other paying jobs to go in, we had a booking with the boat painter 5 weeks later and so we were entitled to move. 

 

I was very concerned that some people would be pointing a finger at us for doing something we should not have been doing so I wanted to get CRT's go ahead that our intentions were in line with their guidelines. I set out our plan to them in an email along with my assessment of the risks involved and how we would overcome them. 

 

5 days later I got a reply saying the people at the main CRT contact could not advise if this was allowable or not and I had to get in touch with our liaison officer to get it cleared. I queried whether they actually meant "our" liaison officer as we would not be travelling in the region where our home mooring was. The clarification came back that I needed to get the approval of the liaison officer of each area we were going to travel through AS WELL AS our own liaison officer.  That amounted to 6 different liaison officers who all had to agree that our journey was necessary and in accordance with the guidelines It was now 3 days before we were due to set off and I knew full well that to try and 6 different people to clear it in 3 days when it took 5 days for the reply to my first email so I simply gave up and went anyway and made sure that our journey created the least possible impact for anyone along our route. 

 

The rules/guidelines are there but they do not spell out each and every potential situation. Each of us needs to ensure we are in a place where we can take care of our needs with the least possible impact upon others for the duration of the lockdown. Basic needs for human life are food, warmth and water. Sanitation needs to be added in for anyone not on a mains sewer and access to necessary medical supplies/treatment is also a must for some. 

 

The rules and guidelines will be interpreted differently according to the individual, - being close to a pump out facility that will remain open will be important for some, being close to a pharmacy for others 

 

 

[Mike Todd]

12 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

Because the Government said you shouldn't go on non essential journeys.

In one sense the official response could have been as it always is: if you cannot comply with the CC 14 day rule then you have to find an approved mooring (and pay for it). However, the actual response seems much the kinder and realistic.

[Mike Todd]

11 hours ago, LadyG said:

 

I am absolutely not a risk to others, in the past six days I have not been in a shop, or any form of public transport, I have been to a pub, twice, thre were a maximum of five people in the pub. No one was acting riotously.I have emptied the cassette, wearing gloves and a mask. There is no one living anywhere near here. A few dog walkers every day. There have been no boat movements recently,, as far as I can make out.

I am clearly not typical, but I can't think that getting groups of boaters to gather round services is a good idea.

In a way I really do hope you are right as if so then the lockdown has some chnace of reducing the rate of infection.

 

However, the experience of Tier 3 restrictions does not bode well and that transmission is taking place in ways that are not reflected in you description. Some scientists are now beginning the examine in detail the early consensus about short distance infection routes but for sure there is something we do not yet know that is fuelling the spread, not just errant and wilful law breakers.

[Thomas C King]

Mixed feelings. Wanted to get down to Reading, but needed a break from cruising (I get the impression we're overdoing it compared to others, some people barely seem to move ? ).

[Higgs]

11 minutes ago, Thomas C King said:

Mixed feelings. Wanted to get down to Reading, but needed a break from cruising (I get the impression we're overdoing it compared to others, some people barely seem to move ? ).

 

Maybe they're being highly energetic inside the boat, or not. 

 

 

[Dave123]

14 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

lots of boaters are cheering they dont have to actually boat and lots of others are looking for a loophole so they can

Sums it up exactly

[Dave123]

13 hours ago, MoominPapa said:

Nantwich embankment is full. So if you're looking for somewhere to spend the lockdown moored end-to-end listening to the neighbours' engines and breathing their diesel fumes, you'll have to go elsewhere. Don't try Market Drayton; every boat we'd seen for miles around arrived there yesterday morning whilst we were filling with water. Strangely, despite it having full facilities, canal based and otherwise, there was plenty of space in Audlem. I attribute that to the shortage of winding holes: most people don't want to go to the top of Adderley to wind, and seem to be strangely incapable of navigating two or three closely spaced locks backwards to get to and from the tap.

 

One last chance at Nantwich: Melaleuca will be freeing one space on Thursday after we've done our panic buying and taken the Ford Focus of Doom off for a holiday in Oxford for the duration.

 

MP.

 

It does feel like there are more boats around everywhere than during the last lockdown. I'm wondering if some boats that would normally be in marinas have decided not to because some marinas prevented people going to their boats? I can't believe people have decided to "move" onto boats from their houses for this lockdown...

 

I spent last lockdown around Crofton/Burbage on the K&A and although people weren't blocking service moorings there were a number of boats blocking lock landings (even at Crofton where there was lots of space on the 48h rings). There was also surprisingly little movement even for water. Will be interesting to see how this lockdown differs. I had to move a few times to get better internet and to have rotten front doors replaced but luckily didn't get lynched?

[Arthur Marshall]

4 hours ago, Mike Todd said:

In a way I really do hope you are right as if so then the lockdown has some chnace of reducing the rate of infection.

 

However, the experience of Tier 3 restrictions does not bode well and that transmission is taking place in ways that are not reflected in you description. Some scientists are now beginning the examine in detail the early consensus about short distance infection routes but for sure there is something we do not yet know that is fuelling the spread, not just errant and wilful law breakers.

It spreads the same way colds spread, mostly by people breathing out and then hanging about in the air. You can usually tell when someone has a cold and avoid them, but mostly with this one you can't tell so it can be anywhere. You've got more chance avoiding it outdoors because the air movement dissipates it, which is why closing down contained spaces might work to slow the infection rate down. But you can't stop it, just lower your chances. I'd think being on a well ventilated boat, either on your tod or with one or two people, is about as safe as you can get.

[ditchcrawler]

On 03/11/2020 at 10:49, Dave123 said:

It does feel like there are more boats around everywhere than during the last lockdown. I'm wondering if some boats that would normally be in marinas have decided not to because some marinas prevented people going to their boats? I can't believe people have decided to "move" onto boats from their houses for this lockdown...

 

I was out today, but I am home now. One boater I spoke to was on his way home with the boat following a repaint, another was just heading to Tixall for a bit, we were at Glascote locks.

[LadyG]

On 03/11/2020 at 09:21, Mike Todd said:

In a way I really do hope you are right as if so then the lockdown has some chnace of reducing the rate of infection.

 

However, the experience of Tier 3 restrictions does not bode well and that transmission is taking place in ways that are not reflected in you description. Some scientists are now beginning the examine in detail the early consensus about short distance infection routes but for sure there is something we do not yet know that is fuelling the spread, not just errant and wilful law breakers.

It's not inly the errant and willful, the lawbreakers, it is the fact that people who are not fearfull of getting the infection don't take strict precautions, and that is what is causing the spread.

Day 1 at ALDI  March 2020, there was a queue , but only one person per household was allowed in, and they had trolleys disinfected for them, I still saw people handling, then replacing goods that other people would buy, that is how the C-19 is transferred from one person to another. Social distancing of 2 metres is a 'coverall', it's not 100 percent safe,  nothing like, but it's  going to cut transmission significantly, the Last Lockdown did not work, and that was ten weeks of Stay at Home, Wash Hands, it seems likely that there were many more infected, possibly asymptomatics around, seems likely we were two weeks too late to stop it taking hold nationally.

I don't think most people realised then,  nor do they realise now, that extreme precautions by the majority are required. 

I have given up trying to work out this Tier business, I kinda think that it was introduced because Boris would not want to go to Total Lockdown, I don't think stopping people driving in their cars from Land's End to John O Groats is going to make one bit of difference, it is their behaviours en route and before and after, just as it always has been, stay at home, if you go out, on your return wash hands before you go round the house spreading the C 19 fragments.

All surfaces especially communal artefacts like door handles should be considered infected, and treated as such, The message has not got through to the average person because it has not been spelt out in simple terms, it's a national and a local emergency.

Edited November 5, 2020 by LadyG

[Paul Gwilliams]

I thought there was mention on Boris's briefing on Sunday about visiting second homes as per the first lockdown.

 

Think that was the reason CaRT gave to stop visiting your boat

 

[roland elsdon]

I think it’s staying overnight that’s not permitted. 

[john6767]

32 minutes ago, roland elsdon said:

I think it’s staying overnight that’s not permitted. 

It seems to be less specific than last time, staying overnight is of course not allowed, but visiting the boat to check it seems to be just down to the ban on non-essential travel.  So if you live close to the boat and could walk to it then it would seem ok to check it, but driving a distance not.

[gatekrash]

8 minutes ago, john6767 said:

It seems to be less specific than last time, staying overnight is of course not allowed, but visiting the boat to check it seems to be just down to the ban on non-essential travel.  So if you live close to the boat and could walk to it then it would seem ok to check it, but driving a distance not.

It does seem less clear than last time. The marina locally where I keep my lumpy water boat completely shut last time - no owners allowed on site under any circumstances, even though it was only a 15 minute drive away I wasn't allowed to visit to check / do maintenance etc until the original tight restrictions were eased at the end of May. No such restriction this time, they're staying open to allow maintenance checks.

 

Unfortunately the nb is 3 hours away from me, and we left her last week shortly before the rumours of lockdown came out, so haven't fully winterised (we were planning on going back up in a couple of weeks). Watching the weather forecast very carefully for the next few weeks...

[LadyG]

55 minutes ago, roland elsdon said:

I think it’s staying overnight that’s not permitted. 

And that is another unscientific Rule. Think about it, what is better than someone staying on their own boat on their own, or with their own family. If they stay in isolation for two weeks  it can also be seen as quarantine..

If they go to their boat, stay overnight and then return, there is no difference. The reason for the rule is to allow other folks to identify the kind of people who disregad the rule abou essential journeys. Last lockdown there was a serial offender in the marina, he even showered in someone else's boat, and presumably made use of other facilities. While the rest of us were trying to restrict our activities he just carried on as before, and I have no doubt he will do the same again if he wants to, the only way to stop this is to have a Stop and Search routine for anyone. Trouble is anyone can say they are taking the exercise option,, in fact they will make up stories to suit the facts if they have that mentality. 

Edited November 5, 2020 by LadyG

[Jerra]

11 minutes ago, LadyG said:

And that is another unscientific Rule. Think about it, what is better than someone staying on their own boat on their own, or with their own family. If they stay in isolation for two weeks  it can also be seen as quarantine..

If they go to their boat, stay overnight and then return, there is no difference. The reason for the rule is to allow other folks to identify the kind of people who disregad the rule abou essential journeys. Last lockdown there was a serial offender in the marina, he even showered in someone else's boat, and presumably made use of other facilities. While the rest of us were trying to restrict our activities he just carried on as before, and I have no doubt he will do the same again if he wants to, the only way to stop this is to have a Stop and Search routine for anyone. Trouble is anyone can say they are taking the exercise option,, in fact they will make up stories to suit the facts if they have that mentality. 

From a government point of view they can't write regulations which fit landlubbers and allow boaters different rules.  Second homes may be a flat with joint entrance, terraced house with doors side by side with next door etc.

 

It seems the virus is spreading mainly by people breathing the same air as infected individuals.    People are complaining the rules are too difficult to understand without them being so detailed as trying to describe what sort of second home was allowed to be visited and what wasn't.    Not to mention the travel to get to the second home take Cummings as an example - a 5 hour drive.

 

The rule may be unscientific but it is pragmatic.

[Mike Todd]

35 minutes ago, LadyG said:

And that is another unscientific Rule. Think about it, what is better than someone staying on their own boat on their own, or with their own family. If they stay in isolation for two weeks  it can also be seen as quarantine..

If they go to their boat, stay overnight and then return, there is no difference. The reason for the rule is to allow other folks to identify the kind of people who disregad the rule abou essential journeys. Last lockdown there was a serial offender in the marina, he even showered in someone else's boat, and presumably made use of other facilities. While the rest of us were trying to restrict our activities he just carried on as before, and I have no doubt he will do the same again if he wants to, the only way to stop this is to have a Stop and Search routine for anyone. Trouble is anyone can say they are taking the exercise option,, in fact they will make up stories to suit the facts if they have that mentality. 

If the infection is transmitted person-to-person (even via an intermediate surface) then the only 'scientific' option is total isolation for every single person. If, that is, by scientific one means certainty - not that science ever claims certainty, even if non-scientists think it does!

 

Anything less than such total isolation is a risk based strategy in which the requirements for survival or even something better are balanced against the risk of infection. That is either called economics or politics, depending on the degree of evidence for a link between the strategy and the desired effect.

[LadyG]

On 03/11/2020 at 09:13, Mike Todd said:

In one sense the official response could have been as it always is: if you cannot comply with the CC 14 day rule then you have to find an approved mooring (and pay for it). However, the actual response seems much the kinder and realistic.

But it it legal?

The CRT are in danger of runinng with the fox and chasing with the hounds when it suits, not that I totally disagree with the suspension  I am ambivalent, but if they are using Section 8 to physically remove boats and boaters without some sort of judicial ie independa t review, and suggesting it is part of their remit, it seems strange.that tbey can elect to suspend the Rule of Law, when it suits.

I wish Nigel Moore was still with us, to help out on these matters, 

 

Edited November 5, 2020 by LadyG

[Alan de Enfield]

46 minutes ago, LadyG said:

it seems strange.that tbey can elect to suspend the Rule of Law, when it suits.

It may help your understanding if you actually read the law :

 

I'll highlight the relevant part to make it easier for you 

 

the applicant for the relevant consent satisfies the Board that the vessel to which the application relates will be used bona fide for navigation throughout the period for which the consent is valid without remaining continuously in any one place for more than 14 days or such longer period as is reasonable in the circumstances.

Edited November 5, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[Mike Todd]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

It may help your understanding if you actually read the law :

 

I'll highlight the relevant part to make it easier for you 

 

the applicant for the relevant consent satisfies the Board that the vessel to which the application relates will be used bona fide for navigation throughout the period for which the consent is valid without remaining continuously in any one place for more than 14 days or such longer period as is reasonable in the circumstances.

. . . and equally important satisfies the Board which gives CaRT considerable leeway in  granting discretionary relief. In the case of S8 action it is clear that the applicant did not satisfy the Board (or in some cases did not even try)

[tehmarks]

On 02/11/2020 at 20:59, LadyG said:

It's not up to the CRT to police what individuals decide to do...

Correct, and that would be why they have not banned movement. When the government advise everyone to only travel if essential though, CRT will rightly face heavy criticism if they force boaters to move against government advice. Not facilitating the ability of boaters to abide by the spirit of the advice, shoul they wish to do so, would be moronic.

 

Given that CRT are a public body and not an opportunistic and morally bankrupt business, one might go so far as to say that that would be an own goal.

[LadyG]

On 02/11/2020 at 20:50, Jerra said:

Common sense would suggest CRT have only brought the rule in because the lockdown says (even for land dwellers) only essential movement.   By suspending the rule they can't be criticised for boaters not following the lockdown regs.

 

Some will manage to criticise whatever CRT chooses to do.

I might have had a change of heart. I'm not sure! 

When the Govt declared I was in Lockdown Tier4 on 20th Dec 2020, I had only been free  under 14 day rule for a few days, and as more restrictions were on the cards, I stayed put as I was near services, also I briefly broke down when I did attempt to move!. 

So, yesterday CRT sent an email saying 14 day rule suspended to 4th April2001, oops 2021, provisionally, I think.

I had thought that I was already following Govt Ruling that I should not move from 20th December, so maybe I have transgressed, are the CRT just catching up now, as I don't think Govt Advice changed in the past few weeks. 

Edited February 1, 2021 by LadyG
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