Optimum Length Boat For Continuous Cruising

[PeterF]

23 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I'm not familar with these latter navigations, as  singlehander with a 57 footer, will I struggle?

I have a wooden paddle.

From my experience you will not struggle, the boat will fit in the locks against the wall, we have been able to do the locks sharing with our 55ft and another 57ft, however, to make things easier, going up they went in first, closed one gate and pulled over then we went in. Going downhill, we were always the first out. The thing is, there is little spare room, so you need to be extra vigilant to avoid problems and perhaps go more slowly than you would normally on wide locks. Going uphill on the C&H there is the added problem that the gear for the bottom gates is mounted well inboard on the gates with large platforms, if you keep the boat well back then the tiller  and/or taff rail can get trapped under the platform, seen this happen several times over the years. Then going down, you need to watch for the cill, which are quite curved in some locks, luckily I have only seen one minor cilling where the rudder got caught and lifted off the skeg but did not hang up the boat. Then there are the leaky locks, and as ever with these things, the leakiest locks are the shortest and deepest in these if I was on my own I always angled the boat to stay further away from the top gates. If you check out this page on Pennine Waterways there is a photo showing the bottom gates and platform.

[PD1964]

If you want relaxed cruising, with no worries about lock size, if you want to be able to find more moorings, cheaper moorings and license get a 55ft, stay away from anything over 60ft and 70ft’s are a pain to move and to find moorings.

 A well laid out 55ft will feel just like a 57/58ft.

  If you want to travel the network stick to your original idea of a 55ft, as I said just get a good thought out layout and you’ll have a more relaxed enjoyable cruising experience.

[cuthound]

I'm surprised no one has thought of advising the OP to get a 55 foot boat so that he can explore the northern canals with shorter locks, then getting the 55 foot boat stretched to 70 foot before exploring the rest of the system. ?

[PD1964]

6 minutes ago, cuthound said:

I'm surprised no one has thought of advising the OP to get a 55 foot boat so that he can explore the northern canals with shorter locks, then getting the 55 foot boat stretched to 70 foot before exploring the rest of the system. ?

Because it not the 1st of April yet?

[David Mack]

Calder and Hebble Navigation Lock Size:
Can you get a 60 ft boat through a 57ft 6in long lock?

http://penninewaterways.co.uk/calder/locks.htm

[PD1964]

Do you really want to risk it? A few people will say they’ve done it coming down backwards and if you can’t do it you can’t handle a boat bla bla bla. Until it all goes wrong and your stuck or even worse boat sunk. It’s just not worth the risk and would your insurance cover it, as the lock is built for 57ft boats.
  

Edited August 24, 2020 by PD1964

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, LadyG said:

I'm not familar with these latter navigations, as  singlehander with a 57 footer, will I struggle?

I have a wooden paddle.

 

You may find it easier on the arms if you get an engine fitted.

[Unicorn Stampede]

Our first boat is 50ft - we specifically opted for that because we didn't want to worry about any lock issues etc.

 

Ultimately we'd like an extra bit of length, as it meant we couldn't fit something like a washing machine in, but because we have a car that's less of a problem (always launderettes nearby)

 

Personally I'd say we would rather aim for a 55ft-57ft in the future (the next boat, in however many years!) We have no desire to go bigger because we don't want to mess with angling into locks!!

[zenataomm]

By asking what is the biggest boat you can own and still cruise all of the waterways, I assume you are a supporter of "Have space, will use it" .

There is another way of doing it you know?

 

?

[Blue Knight]

3 hours ago, zenataomm said:

By asking what is the biggest boat you can own and still cruise all of the waterways, I assume you are a supporter of "Have space, will use it" .

There is another way of doing it you know?

 

?

 

If that's directed at me then I'm just seeking a bit of advice on how to navigate the whole system without being a liability to myself or to other watercraft users.

 

I've not been a newbie on a subject for some time so the last thing I need is to make a complete arse of myself.

 

The helpful support gained on this forum has been phenomenal though.

Edited August 24, 2020 by Blue Knight

[Blue Knight]

21 hours ago, dmr said:

As always there is not a simple and definitive answer to much canal stuff.

There is probably not much point in 65 foot, it wont do the shorter locks so you might as well go to 70 (or maybe 68/69). Only advantage is making wet 70 foot locks a bit easier.

Can't comment on 60 foot, others will.

70 can't do Leeds and Liverpool plus various other Northern canals, but will go into Liverpool which is a must do boat trip. There are bits of the North East that you can't really do in a 70 but could by going round Trent Falls which is not trivial. Some Northern canals can maybe be done but I believe Thorne Lock? is the limit but some folk say some 70 foot boats can do it.

Although the L&L can't be done the other two wonderful Pennine crossings, Rochdale and Huddersfield Narrow, can, but due to short locks on Calder & Hebble and Huddersfield wide these will be there and back trips, you cant do the ring.   Best thing is to get a map and mark the bits you can't do then its much easier to visualise, In general you can get a longer boat through locks than what the CRT dimensions say but this will depend on boat detail shape and some effort. If you get a 70 footer it might well be 70 and a bit etc so if you are pushing the limits do get the boat measured.

As an example of things, Evesham lock on the River Avon is just about 70foot, if you are a bit over, or maybe even a bit under then you can go up but not down, so to go down you would need to turn above the lock, tricky in higher flows, and do the lock backwards.

 

Except for the possible Evesham struggle a 70 can do just about everything in the South and midlands and quite a bit of the North-West

 

..............Dave

 

.............Dave

Crikey Dave, there is a tonne of information in that response. Thanks very much indeed. 

 

Regarding the mapping etc, which is the best source to buy a detailed map of the canals so that I can start doodling away.

 

The only thing I have at the moment is the C&RT electronic version (off their web page) and that example is not exactly detailed.

 

Many thanks,

 

Andrew

[Blue Knight]

9 hours ago, PD1964 said:

Do you really want to risk it? A few people will say they’ve done it coming down backwards and if you can’t do it you can’t handle a boat bla bla bla. Until it all goes wrong and your stuck or even worse boat sunk. It’s just not worth the risk and would your insurance cover it, as the lock is built for 57ft boats.
  

Got to be honest with you and say that I'm thinking the same at the moment.

 

How does it go: KISS = Keep It Simple Stupid. This will certainly apply to a newbie like me.

 

You also make a very good point about the insurance liability. 

 

Many thanks,

 

Andrew 

 

 

[dmr]

There are a couple of lovely big fold out maps of the entire network "Map of the Inland Waterways of Great Britain" by Imray is good. I think Nicholsons do something similar. These are big things you can open out on the dining table on a dark winters night and dream about boating. You will have to do the (fun) research to mark out which canals are impossible/maybe impossible.

There is also a smaller map just the right size to go on a spare bit of wall inside the boat. You maybe get these at chandlers. Mine is laminated and was a gift from another boater/forum member, not sure if it came laminated or if he did it.

There is also various stuff on the internet.

 

............Dave

[dmr]

9 hours ago, PD1964 said:

Do you really want to risk it? A few people will say they’ve done it coming down backwards and if you can’t do it you can’t handle a boat bla bla bla. Until it all goes wrong and your stuck or even worse boat sunk. It’s just not worth the risk and would your insurance cover it, as the lock is built for 57ft boats.
  

It all depends on what sort of person you are, at the tougher end of boating like some of the working boat types, then doing locks backwards is likely pretty routine, as is flushing (slightly) fat boats out of tight locks or using a Tifor (winch) etc.  Don't let insurance men stop you having fun, difficult locks are part of boating and as long as you take reasonable care and do reasonable things you should be fine. You can always check with the insurance company beforehand if you are concerned.

If its difficult then just do it very slowly.

 

...............Dave

[LadyG]

1 hour ago, dmr said:

There are a couple of lovely big fold out maps of the entire network "Map of the Inland Waterways of Great Britain" by Imray is good. I think Nicholsons do something similar. These are big things you can open out on the dining table on a dark winters night and dream about boating. You will have to do the (fun) research to mark out which canals are impossible/maybe impossible.

There is also a smaller map just the right size to go on a spare bit of wall inside the boat. You maybe get these at chandlers. Mine is laminated and was a gift from another boater/forum member, not sure if it came laminated or if he did it.

There is also various stuff on the internet.

 

............Dave

Minimal list on you tube have a map, sort of 'conceptual' or London Tube style

[dmr]

1 minute ago, LadyG said:

Minimal list on you tube have a map, sort of 'conceptual' or London Tube style

I think there are a few versions of the London Tube Canal map. Very clever and entertaining but not really of much practical use. I spent a fair while looking at one of them and could find no errors, I suspect somebody put a lot of effort into making it.

 

https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/199073246012376708/

 

..............Dave

[LadyG]

13 hours ago, Blue Knight said:

 

If that's directed at me then I'm just seeking a bit of advice on how to navigate the whole system without being a liability to myself or to other watercraft users.

 

I've not been a newbie on a subject for some time so the last thing I need is to make a complete arse of myself.

 

The helpful support gained on this forum has been phenomenal though.

Grasshopper, you have a lot to learn...

Remember: locks-up are easy, water goes in, boat goes up ...................

f'ups are part of the adventure ...............

PS have you tried snorkelling on the Chesterfield canal yet, I am running a free two day course, this week only .....?

Edited August 25, 2020 by LadyG

[PD1964]

13 hours ago, LadyG said:

Minimal list on you tube have a map, sort of 'conceptual' or London Tube style

More for putting on a wall in a frame or as a gift then any practical use when out cruising.

[PD1964]

15 hours ago, Blue Knight said:

Got to be honest with you and say that I'm thinking the same at the moment.

 

How does it go: KISS = Keep It Simple Stupid. This will certainly apply to a newbie like me.

 

You also make a very good point about the insurance liability. 

 

Many thanks,

 

Andrew 

 

 

I have a 61.5ft boat and did the L&L last year and I was jammed in the locks coming down and you are up to the cill getting drenched, I realised then that it’s just not worth damaging your boat especially if it’s your home.

  My friend has a 55ft and I could quite easily swap. It’s all down to the layout and how the space is used.

  There is a book called “Living the Dream” by Trevor Pavitt where he travels the canal network on a 60ft.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Living-Dream-Trevor-Pavitt/dp/184753757X

also an interesting short Vid on the boat. It can be done but not all, a 55ft can SAFELY do it all, with easier to find moorings and will also save you a few £’s.

  

[Tracy D'arth]

I prefer something about 50 foot with a small bedroom, and to save space a usable engine area. With this length the number of places you can wind is greater, like above Braunston where anything bigger can't.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

On 24/08/2020 at 09:55, David Mack said:

Calder and Hebble Navigation Lock Size:
Can you get a 60 ft boat through a 57ft 6in long lock?

http://penninewaterways.co.uk/calder/locks.htm

A couple of pictures of what is involved in doing this when I travelled with friends and their 60' boat. Going down the top two locks of the Salterhebble flight backwards. The only way to do it as going the other way means that the stern jams on the cill before the bow can get past the opening bottom gates. The other locks were not as tight as this and could be done facing forwards. 

First picture, keeping the bow in the centre of the gates where the curve of the cill gives the most clearance.

Second picture, the boat is pushed bow in to the cill and the bottom gates just clear the stern. Bow fender removed and one of the two stern fenders. Bow fender might possibly have stayed on without problems, I can't remember, but the stern fender had to go and the rudder put hard over to get out.

Conclusion. A lot easier in a 57' boat! 

Jen

 

Edited August 25, 2020 by Jen-in-Wellies

[PD1964]

3 hours ago, LadyG said:

Grasshopper, you have a lot to learn...

Remember: locks-up are easy, water goes in, boat goes up ...................

f'ups are part of the adventure ...............

We all started fresh once and lock downs are easy too unless your boat is too big for the lock.

 You have a lot to learn too, as you’ve just started on the canals and have only done from Goole to the Chesterfield canal less then 50 miles so no experience really and I image you will have a lot more f’ups then most.

10 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

A couple of pictures of what is involved in doing this when I travelled with friends and their 60' boat. Going down the top two locks of the Salterhebble flight backwards. The only way to do it as going the other way means that the stern jams on the cill before the bow can get past the opening bottom gates. The other locks were not as tight as this and could be done facing forwards. 

First picture, keeping the bow in the centre of the gates where the curve of the cill gives the most clearance.

Second picture, the boat is pushed bow in to the cill and the bottom gates just clear the stern. Bow fender removed and one of the two stern fenders. Bow fender could probably have stayed on, but the stern fender had to go and the rudder put hard over to get out.

Conclusion. A lot easier in a 57' boat! 

Jen

 

Yes that looks really safe. A good example of why to get a 55ft and have no hassle. Foolish.

Edited August 25, 2020 by PD1964

[Jen-in-Wellies]

17 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

Yes that looks really safe. A good example of why to get a 55ft and have no hassle. Foolish.

I wouldn't say foolish. We knew it could be done and what was involved from the previous owners of the boat, who had made the trip too. Just a bit of faff. Potential for falling in for the person at the bow. I agree with the 55' bit though! 

As an addition, getting the 60'er through took three people. Two on the boat and one working the paddles and gates. The 57'er could be single handed.

Edited August 25, 2020 by Jen-in-Wellies

[PD1964]

5 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

I wouldn't say foolish. We knew it could be done and what was involved from the previous owners of the boat, who had made the trip too. Just a bit of faff. Potential for falling in for the person at the bow. I agree with the 55' bit though! 

As an addition, getting the 60'er took three people. Two on the lock and one working the paddles and gates. The 57'er could be single handed.

Old woman hanging on the bow with a pole hook trying to hold a 18 ton boat with a cratch cover and nothing to hang onto, I would say foolish.

Edited August 25, 2020 by PD1964

[Dr Bob]

On 24/08/2020 at 09:41, PD1964 said:

If you want relaxed cruising, with no worries about lock size, if you want to be able to find more moorings, cheaper moorings and license get a 55ft, stay away from anything over 60ft and 70ft’s are a pain to move and to find moorings.

 

I would disagree with that!

We have had a 62ft and now a 65ft boat and in the 3 1/2 years have never found any problem being able to moor it and it certainly isnt a pain to move it.

We set out 4 years ago looking for a 57ft 'go anywhere' boat but couldnt see one we liked. Fell in love with the 62ft one, bought it and never looked back. OK, we cant do a few of the up north canals but there are so many other canals to do - so does it matter? Just got a new boat - 4 ft longer- as we wanted more room. We live full time on the boat and 65ft is a good compromise on being long enough for comfort but avoiding 70ft where you would have to be a bit more awake at locks and accept it would be a bit more work winding the boat. We dont find 65ft restraining in any way in terms of daily mooring as we cruise the network - and there are plenty of winding holes.

If you HAVE to do the northern canals then yes you need 55-57ft but if not, there's far more comfort in a 60-65ft. We couldnt live on 55ft one. Far too small. We dont like camping.