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Alan de Enfield

Housing benefit will pay liveaboard's boat licence. Judge announces.

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1 hour ago, Athy said:

99% of people wouldn't give a monkey's and therefore would not express an opinion. Silence implies consent.

Yet another assumption you make based on no facts whatsoever..

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Just now, blackrose said:

Yet another assumption you make based on no facts whatsoever..

Assumptions are like that, aren't they?

What do you mean "yet another"?

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50 minutes ago, Jerra said:

Planning permission is I understand required for residential moorings.  If there is no planning permission and it has to be granted or the liveaboards leave would that have any influence on the business rates the marina has to pay?

The grant of planning permission for residents, or rather the implementation of the permission, should cause the premises to be re-rated.  Whether it is or not depends on the local Council chasing it up with the rating values people.  Once re rated it would be on the basis that all the resi moorings are occupied, so no reduction if a resident leaves, nor increase if a vacancy is filled.  To achieve a decrease  in rating the marina would have to apply for planning permission for a smaller number of residents.

 

 Unofficial residents are not rated for, so if they go away the marina rates are not reduced.

 

N

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5 minutes ago, Athy said:

Assumptions are like that, aren't they?

What do you mean "yet another"?

 

Like the one you made earlier about the majority of people agreeing with you.

 

No assumptions aren't always like that. Some are based on data that can be backed up. Yours aren't and are just opinions which you try to present as facts.  

Edited by blackrose

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3 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

Like the one you made earlier about the majority of people agreeing with you.

 

No assumptions aren't always like that. Some are based on data that can be backed up. Yours aren't and are just opinions  

Yes, we like expressing opinions on CWDF as they stimulate discussion.

No, assumptions are not based on data which can be backed up.

Edited by Athy

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47 minutes ago, blackrose said:

Yet another assumption you make based on no facts whatsoever..

sometimes its ok to express an opinion without enough data to back you... facts are boring sometimes, opinions are interesting because you can argue endlessly and it gives an insight into somebody's thought process.

of course if a fact proves the opinion to be incorrect, the argument is over.

also its boring to say IMHO when expressing an opinion, its usually obvious from the way it is expressed, but sometimes one needs to state it clearly.

 

*just my opinion on the matter.

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4 minutes ago, restlessnomad said:

of course if a fact proves the opinion to be incorrect, the argument is over.

 

I think you have been here long enough to know that that is definitely not the case.

 

(when I say "here", I am referring equally to this web site, and the world in general :) )

 

There are plenty who will continue to argue that black is white, even when the facts are clear, i.e. black is not white, and white is not black, under any circumstances :) 

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12 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

I think you have been here long enough to know that that is definitely not the case.

 

 

 

There are plenty who will continue to argue that black is white, even when the facts are clear, i.e. black is not white, and white is not black, under any circumstances :) 

But we are not in the political section here.

:D

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16 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

I think you have been here long enough to know that that is definitely not the case.

 

(when I say "here", I am referring equally to this web site, and the world in general :) )

 

There are plenty who will continue to argue that black is white, even when the facts are clear, i.e. black is not white, and white is not black, under any circumstances :) 

I have some sympathy for people on both side of the argument, the one who has support of 'facts' and is annoyed by obstinate nature of the opponent, and other side who probably does not trust the 'fact' to be true (due to various reason, may be source is not trustworthy to him/her, or his personal experience overrides statistics based conclusion)... and then there is ego which makes people not admit that they are wrong.

also some people who won the argument, try extrapolate the admission of being wrong to future arguments. (you have been wrong before... so..)

 

 

however my point is tangentially related to recent trend of 'worshipping the fact', popularised by followers of Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson who (we are told) repeatedly 'destroy' liberals/feminists with 'facts and logic'. 😁

(youtube has hours of such videos)

Edited by restlessnomad

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4 minutes ago, restlessnomad said:

and then there is ego  geographical origin which makes people not admit that they are wrong.

 

A minor amendment for you.

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3 hours ago, magnetman said:

Yes I do know the area well and have travelled Limehouse to Brentford and back via canal last month.  

 

It's not a slum yet ;) it's going that way but not there quite yet. 

 

All we need is a few loud voices shouting about rights and it will all go tits up. 

what changes would make to revise your opinion that it's not a slum?

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3 hours ago, magnetman said:

I'm not convinced that drawing more attention to itinerant boat dwelling is beneficial for itinerant boat dwellers. 

 

 

I wouldn’t link claimants of this benefit solely with itinerants. This payment will help any boater who finds themselves needing to make benefit claims. 
 

Plenty of itinerant boaters will be living without needing to make any claims. 
 

 

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Edit to add @doratheexplorer - A larger proportion of benefit-claiming layabout deadbeat wasters rather than posh gentrifiers with boats as toys ;)

 

(giggle)

20 minutes ago, Goliath said:

I wouldn’t link claimants of this benefit solely with itinerants. This payment will help any boater who finds themselves needing to make benefit claims. 
 

Plenty of itinerant boaters will be living without needing to make any claims. 
 

 

I do know this. 

 

I could see a situation where councils started to displace people towards the waterways as a way of "losing" them in a low-cost way. This seems to me to have some slightly worrying potential outcomes. 

 

I should mention here that I am expressing opinion not fact. 

 

Obviously nobody knows what is going to happen in the future. 

Edited by magnetman

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2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The case was an individual against the borough council, if the council lost then surely the council will be the ones paying ?

 

25th June 2020 (AB v London Borough of Camden (HB) [2020] UKUT 158 (AAC)),

Think it is a bit more complex than that.

 

The gov pay council a 'housing benefit subsidy' the council then administer this as 'housing benefit' to claimants - ideally and in the couple of councils where I found the info easily the amount given as a subsidy and the amount spent by the council on administering the benefit were not that different. Obviously there will be conflicts between central gov and local councils though.

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2 hours ago, Athy said:

Yes, we like expressing opinions on CWDF as they stimulate discussion.

No, assumptions are not based on data which can be backed up.

 

You must have misunderstood what was was saying. I didn't say there was anything wrong with expressing opinions. As long as you're ok when someone else picks you up because you're expressing those opinions as if they are facts and talking about a majority agreening with you or 99% of people not caring when you clearly don't know if that's true.

 

Contrary to what you say assumptions can be based on data and supported with evidence. For example, yesterday the lock down in Leicester was extended becuase rates of Covid-19 infections are still rising. I heard an epidemiologist on the radio yesterday saying that part of the reason Leicester has been badly affected may be due to the large Asian population who as we know are more likely to live in extended families and are more susceptible to the virus. So there's an example of an assumption being made which isn't a fact but is supported by data and empirical evidence. However, it may or may not be a correct assumption because correlation does not necessarily equate to causation.

Edited by blackrose

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7 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

So there's an example of an assumption being made which isn't a fact but is supported by data and empirical evidence. 

Quite so. As it hasn't yet been proved, it's still an assumption.

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2 hours ago, blackrose said:

Yet another assumption you make based on no facts whatsoever..

 

Didn't you know that 94% of all quoted statistics are made up on the spot? 😁🤣

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6 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Didn't you know that 94% of all quoted statistics are made up on the spot? 😁🤣

You assume that they are.

 

Oh....

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1 hour ago, magnetman said:

Edit to add @doratheexplorer - A larger proportion of benefit-claiming layabout deadbeat wasters rather than posh gentrifiers with boats as toys ;)

 

(giggle)

I do know this. 

 

I could see a situation where councils started to displace people towards the waterways as a way of "losing" them in a low-cost way. This seems to me to have some slightly worrying potential outcomes. 

 

I should mention here that I am expressing opinion not fact. 

 

Obviously nobody knows what is going to happen in the future. 

In my opinion 🙂 I see it going the other way and to live on the waterways will become prohibitively expensive. 
 

Some may argue as fact that it’s already happening. 

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1 minute ago, Goliath said:

In my opinion 🙂 I see it going the other way and to live on the waterways will become prohibitively expensive. 
 

Some may argue as fact that it’s already happening. 

But it won't be a problem, as it seems the council / government will pay the major costs anyway.

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3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

But it won't be a problem, as it seems the council / government will pay the major costs anyway.

but (in the future) it won’t be a low cost effective way to lose people as magnetman suggest

 

 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Goliath said:

In my opinion 🙂 I see it going the other way and to live on the waterways will become prohibitively expensive. 
 

Some may argue as fact that it’s already happening. 

Sensible people who want to live cheaply on the water will do what they've always done, ie keep their heads down, keep out of everyone's way and have a nice time.  Some of them may even buy a licence...

  • Greenie 2

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5 minutes ago, Goliath said:

but (in the future) it won’t be a low cost effective way to lose people as magnetman suggest

 

If you can rent a flat in London for less than a boat licence fee you must have superpowers.

 

To be clearer, you'd be doing very well to rent a flat for a month for the price of an annual boat licence.

  • Greenie 1

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30 minutes ago, Goliath said:

In my opinion 🙂 I see it going the other way and to live on the waterways will become prohibitively expensive. 
 

Some may argue as fact that it’s already happening. 

Not sure why you said "going the other way" as this is exactly what I am referring to. 

 

The subject of this topic seems to me to be promoting this outcome.  

 

My reference to councils "losing" people to the waterways was a short term reference with negative implications in the longer term for people who actually do want to live on boats. 

 

It is obviously not sustainable as a housing solution in a country with a rapidly expanding population so discussions will take place and changes will be made, most probably involving making it more expensive and / or less legally manageable to live on boats without paying for moorings.

 

 

11 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Sensible people who want to live cheaply on the water will do what they've always done, ie keep their heads down, keep out of everyone's way and have a nice time.  Some of them may even buy a licence...

Exactly. 

Edited by magnetman

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7 hours ago, Athy said:

I must admit that I thought that they already could - but it's a step in the right direction for less well-heeled boaters.

 

I also didn't know that housing benefit was paid by local councils; I thought it came from the dole office which I assumed was a national organisation. How, though, will it be established which council should pay for a boater's licence if, as a continuous cruiser, he'll probably move through the territories of several different councils during the course of a year?

Universal Credit includes a housing benefit element, therefore any  UC claim for housing would not involve the local council. As was the case with the outgoing system. 

  • Greenie 1

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