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ivan&alice

Diagnosing a Beta 38 engine that won't start

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It looks very similar to mine.

Is the 'filter unit' in 3-parts ?

 

Top housing

Filter unit (in the centre)

Bottom filter 'cup'

 

 

They can have a glass bottom cup, a steel bottom cup or a Polycarbonate bottom cup (but polycarbonate are not allowed on Inland waterways)

 

Image result for lucas hdf096 filter

Versatility-35-42.jpg

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16 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Versatility-35-42.jpg

Oh dear he's showing off his ginormous sparkly clean engine again.

If it goes wrong there's an spare on the other side.....

 

 

Edited by OldGoat
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Put more diesel in, at least 50L. Leave it for a while to let the disturbance from the filling settle. Bleed the system. Run it again. It may run.  Change the filter at your leisure. Worked for me twice.

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If it has an electric fuel pump it'll probably self bleed. If so turn the ignition key on, you should hear the pump whining, leave it like that for a minute and then try to start.  After you've put a decent amount of fuel in the tank, of course.

Edited by bizzard

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This might make clearer why you have probably run out of fuel, the dip tubes will stop short to leave somewhere for the crud and condensation.

The reason you can get fuel to still bleed is your body weight might just allow enough fuel to momentarily enter the dip tube.

 

Fuel tank bulkhead before fixing in place.

 

 

IMG_0560.JPG

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3 minutes ago, NB Esk said:

 

This might make clearer why you have probably run out of fuel, the dip tubes will stop short to leave somewhere for the crud and condensation.

The reason you can get fuel to still bleed is your body weight might just allow enough fuel to momentarily enter the dip tube.

 

Fuel tank bulkhead before fixing in place.

 

 

IMG_0560.JPG

I think it would help if you could describe it in detail. I see 4 rods on a flat piece of metal.

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1 minute ago, system 4-50 said:

I think it would help if you could describe it in detail. I see 4 rods on a flat piece of metal.

 

Not rods, those are the dip tubes.  It's a view that few people will see, however long they own their boat, as it's behind a welded steel bulkhead.

 

To make it clearer, here's a view of it fixed in place (minus the top plate of course)

 

 

IMG_0487.JPG

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Thanks for the advice on finding the fuel filter, that wasn't what I was asking for as the truth of the matter is I hadn't actually tried yet! When I posted that thread, I had tried to replace it with a part that didn't fit, then cleaned and put the old one back, and after much struggling and that thread later, I got the system bled and the engine started. I didn't feel like tinkering for a little while after that!

I have now sourced and bought three of em. I've filled up the boat's tank to the brim from a passing fuel boat. She drank 263 litres. Given that the manufacturer's spec sheet lists the fuel tank as 225 litres, I think it's fair to say she was out of fuel. And either the spec sheet or the fuel boat's numbers are wrong... but I was happy enough to not have to carry litre by litre of expensive road diesel from the local garage to question it.

I've left it for an hour to settle and I'm now going to replace the fuel filter and bleed the system. All that's then left is to pray there is enough juice left in the starter battery to get the engine going.

 

Thanks for the illustrative pictures. What are the dip tubes for? They look to me like they are sealed off at the top?

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3 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

I've left it for an hour to settle and I'm now going to replace the fuel filter and bleed the system. All that's then left is to pray there is enough juice left in the starter battery to get the engine going.

You may be able to parallel you house batteries to get it started? Jump lead, or switch? Or remove a house battery and temporarily use it as a starter battery.

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13 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

Thanks for the advice on finding the fuel filter, that wasn't what I was asking for as the truth of the matter is I hadn't actually tried yet! When I posted that thread, I had tried to replace it with a part that didn't fit, then cleaned and put the old one back, and after much struggling and that thread later, I got the system bled and the engine started. I didn't feel like tinkering for a little while after that!

I have now sourced and bought three of em. I've filled up the boat's tank to the brim from a passing fuel boat. She drank 263 litres. Given that the manufacturer's spec sheet lists the fuel tank as 225 litres, I think it's fair to say she was out of fuel. And either the spec sheet or the fuel boat's numbers are wrong... but I was happy enough to not have to carry litre by litre of expensive road diesel from the local garage to question it.

I've left it for an hour to settle and I'm now going to replace the fuel filter and bleed the system. All that's then left is to pray there is enough juice left in the starter battery to get the engine going.

 

Thanks for the illustrative pictures. What are the dip tubes for? They look to me like they are sealed off at the top?

The tubes are the take off to engine and return diesel from the spill rails (?)

possibly temp sealed during fitting/welding to stop crud getting in.

 

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4 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

This list illustrates my misgivings about "equivalent" filters.  There are 9 Toyota filters on that list with different part numbers.  Toyota simply won't be using 9 different part numbers for 9 identical filters, so they'll all be different in either fit, form or function.  Assuming they all fit (or they wouldn't make the list), then either the form or the function must be different in each.  If we pick those that are the same shape and size (form) as the OEM filter they replace, then there must be internal functional differences between them, such as relief valve pressures or the fineness of filtration to name 2 important ones. At best, only one will be a direct equivalent.

 

So, in the words of Dirty Harry: "do ya feel lucky"?

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7 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

my measuring stick is still showing an inch of diesel in the tank,

Cannot speak for the size and shape of your tank, but I calibrated my measuring stick, and an inch would equate to less than 10 litres from a total of 300.  I would suggest that all you have left in the tank is slurry, and would suggest putting a Jerry can or two in and see how you go...

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29 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

 

So, in the words of Dirty Harry: "do ya feel lucky"?

Pedancy alert: "do I feel lucky?" 

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Engine is purring away happily with her new fuel filter. Thanks again for the help and advice.

 

I'm still not 100% sure I'm doing the bleeding correctly, I get plenty of fuel out of the bleed nut on top of the fuel filter, but no matter how much I pump the lever I don't seem to get any from the nuts on the injectors. Should I be pumping with all nuts loosened or just one at a time? I tried both ways and couldn't get any fuel, however when I tightened up the nuts again the one injector was a bit wet with diesel. So perhaps I just couldn't see where it was bleeding out.

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You won't unless you are cranking the engine. The lift pump can't force fuel through the injector pump.

 

I think the Betas are self bleeding so usually no need to bleed the high pressure part at the injectors.

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32 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

Engine is purring away happily with her new fuel filter. Thanks again for the help and advice.

 

I'm still not 100% sure I'm doing the bleeding correctly, I get plenty of fuel out of the bleed nut on top of the fuel filter, but no matter how much I pump the lever I don't seem to get any from the nuts on the injectors. Should I be pumping with all nuts loosened or just one at a time? I tried both ways and couldn't get any fuel, however when I tightened up the nuts again the one injector was a bit wet with diesel. So perhaps I just couldn't see where it was bleeding out.

you will only get fuel out the injector pipe ends by cranking the engine over whilst the pipe are cracked off, one fuell is seen leaving the pipes with no air nip them up and start engine...

 

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There are two schools of thought re the best fuel take off position in a boat fuel tank.

The most favoured position is an inch or so above the bottom of the tank.

This gives a large capacity, fuel settling area for water and crud, much larger then any bowl on a fuel filter.

However the effectiveness of this settling chamber, like any fuel water separator, is totally dependant on routinely removing the accumulated water and crud. Without removal the water level will slowly rise to the fuel outlet level and then at the most inopportune time send a slug of water and crud through the fuel system, at best overloading the other filters and at worst getting through to the expensive bits.

Unless you routinely remove this water and crud you are providing ideal conditions for cultivating your own special brew of diesel bug.

Diesel plus water plus a little yeast, either airborne via makeup air, or from delivered fuel, helped by a bit of warmth and bingo.

Some fuel tanks of this configuration are fitted with an additional  plugged and valved bottom outlet for draining the tank bottom, ours was.

The other way of removing the tank bottoms, and the way we used, was a small hand plunger or bulb transfer pump with either a rigid plastic or copper tube suction extension down the dip pipe transferring the tank bottoms into a clear vessel. soft drink bottle? for inspection until the fuel runs "clear and bright"

 

To avoid any problems caused by not routinely removing the settled water and crud, the other school of thought is to take the fuel from the absolute tank bottom and use the fuel system filtration to remove contaminants before they get to the engine.

This is the approach used in automotive fuel tanks.

 

But you cannot use this approach if your fuel take off position is above the tank bottom. The crud will just lie in wait.

 

Edited by DandV

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