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magictime

So did we 'steal' this lock?

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12 minutes ago, magictime said:

No problem. What a pleasure to have a civilised difference of opinion! I still think we might do the same thing again in the same particular circumstances (boat behind, awkward short pound etc.), but in general I think we'll be a bit more conscious of waiting where we can even if an oncoming boat is a couple of locks away.

 

Oh, the other response my wife had to your point about Andersen trying to teach 'boating etiquette' and us undermining the lesson: if they were that concerned about what they were teaching, surely one thing they absolutely shouldn't have done was start raising paddles without checking with the streerer (me) that the boat was safely in and clear of the cill. That, after all, is a safety issue and not just a question of etiquette (or even water conservation).

I might have missed this earier:

the lock you filled, did you have to close the bottom gates before filling the lock? Bottom gates left open would imply they’ve set ahead or a previous boat left them open knowing the boat was coming up. 

In which case I would definitely have waited. 

However, I don’t think they ought to have been locking ahead if it’s busy and boats are coming down. 

 

I’m quite lazy and waiting would mean 2 locks set in my favour. 

 

I guess people waiting behind  giving you pressure to move doesn’t help. 

 

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15 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

It would be unnecessary for that category - the cranial proboscis is a dead give-away.

Lol. But it is actually a great idea-repeat speeders ,agressive boaters etc get a big purple licence so you can let em get on with it..

?

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4 hours ago, magictime said:

No problem. What a pleasure to have a civilised difference of opinion! 

 

Oh, the other response my wife had to your point about Andersen trying to teach 'boating etiquette' and us undermining the lesson: if they were that concerned about what they were teaching, surely one thing they absolutely shouldn't have done was start raising paddles without checking with the streerer (me) that the boat was safely in and clear of the cill. That, after all, is a safety issue and not just a question of etiquette (or even water conservation).

A civil difference of opinion is a rare thing these days! :)

 

Can't disagree with second point I always tell my customers to politley decline help lock wheeling if they want to control their ascent or descent speed for a comfortable and safe locking.  It's daunting enough at times without being bashed about to save someone 2 minutes paddle lifting too quickly. 

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But what about the occasions where you wait above an empty lock because you can see an approaching boat in the distance, but when they get to the lock they stop and bang in a couple of pins, you go down to chat and they say they are stopping?

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11 hours ago, PaulJ said:

  would a boat mover have the same right way of way ?

I once met one who said "I'm a professional boat mover so I can leave gates open when I leave"

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8 minutes ago, David Mack said:

But what about the occasions where you wait above an empty lock because you can see an approaching boat in the distance, but when they get to the lock they stop and bang in a couple of pins, you go down to chat and they say they are stopping?

Shrug? It happens.

As to how many locks away in a flight, generally if they are more than one lock away I'd turn the lock.  Unless I'm tired, no-one behind me and I want a cup of tea...

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9 hours ago, magictime said:

Phew! Lots of interesting and balanced replies there, and a discussion worth having by the sounds of it. The one reply I'm going to have to take issue with is this one..

 

 

OK, fair enough, you think I should have waited (a majority but not unanimous view, I think). But I never acknowledged that 'protocol' was in the other boat's favour - I honestly thought that, if anything, protocol suggested that the lock was 'ours' because there was no boat actually in the pound below and able to use it. I also thought protocol suggested that we shouldn't hold up boats behind us by assuming on their behalf that they were happy to wait. And I figured we had some responsibility to consider the implications for congestion if we waited where we were, another boat came down to join us, and then the boat coming the other way had to get past both of us in that very short, bendy pound.

 

And I'm not trying to have it both ways - I can say in all honesty that if the roles had been reversed, I wouldn't have expected the other party to wait for us to bring our boat up two locks. 

 

Genuine question  (for you and anyone else): as a rule of thumb, ignoring the point about congestion at the very tight Middlewich locks, how many locks below you on a flight would a boat have to be before you didn't feel obliged to wait for them, in this scenario? I mean, say you were coming down the Audlem flight and saw a boat coming the other way six five locks down - would you wait?

 

Not trying to go on the defensive here, just honestly wanting to get as clear as I can be on the etiquette. We generally try to go out of our way to be considerate boaters, but on this point I still feel I'm a bit woolly on others' expectations/assumptions.

The views expressed are at least 2 to 1 in favour of waiting. It seems a lot of those defending your act do so with a particular knowledge of the flight in question. Hence to answer your question directly we need to assume a more regular set of circumstances.

 

I would tend to agree with two locks ahead then it’s OK to turn as a rule of thumb but that assumes it’s just you and the approaching boat. In such a scenario you each have a lock to work and then the one for whom the next lock is most in favour should get the lock that’s still between you. If you were to turn a lock on a boat that is nearer than two locks away then you are likely to be wasting water and delaying them. I think you can generally do one of those things in isolation but if you are doing both you’re probably in the wrong.

 

From your description I think you throw in some potentially spurious factors - water levels and the following boat - but seem to be avoiding saying much about the boat you were following in respect of where it was and whether they had left the gates open for the ascending boat in the bottom lock to directly enter the lock you turned.

 

JP

 

Edited by Captain Pegg

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Today coming down Audlem, following boat in front (steerer +lock operator). I’d been helping them by closing up whilst she went ahead to fill. Noticed that there was a boat waiting to come up in the following lock whilst the boat ahead of us was just entering the next lock. Do I turn this lock? Well the next lock has to be emptied (boat in front in it), boat exits/other boat enters, and then refilled (boat coming up in it). So do I have time to fill our lock, get our boat in, and empty it? Yes of course, both locks will take the same time to fully cycle.

 

So that is what we did, and pretty much at the same time as we had the bottom gates open, they had the top gate of the next lock open. Boats passed mid pound and all was sweetness and light.

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Yes -Middlewich does have an air of grumpiness and possible conflict. Here is another conundrum ....

 

We descended the top lock onto the 90 degree turn opposite the dry dock going to go into the middle lock.

There was a boat just about to leave the middle lock coming up, so in order to facilitate his passage up, i stayed on the left, tight on the sharp bend, holding a centre line, scraping my own boat, but allowing him an easier turn (albeit on the "wrong" side) into the lock with a wider turning passage.

I made polite small talk over the roof, commenting on how his bow thrusters must come in handy on such turns, and he responded with growling something along the lines of " would be a damn sight easier if you were on the right side"  - i disagreed with him ....

The volockies were saying he was moaning about stuff coming up the lock too.

 

I simply don't understand why some people choose this way of life, or leisure pursuit, when they clearly dont seem capable of much in the way of civil behaviour or good natured communication. The guy was a typical example of the breed - sixties, stocky, follicly challenged with grey goatee, sturdy replica "working boat" (with bow thrusters?) and shouting instructions at his poor wife from the back of the boat .....

 

 

Edited by Hartlebury lad
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1 hour ago, Hartlebury lad said:

(snip)

We descended the top lock onto the 90 degree turn opposite the dry dock going to go into the middle lock.

There was a boat just about to leave the middle lock coming up, so in order to facilitate his passage up, i stayed on the left, tight on the sharp bend, holding a centre line, scraping my own boat, but allowing him an easier turn (albeit on the "wrong" side) into the lock with a wider turning passage.

I made polite small talk over the roof, commenting on how his bow thrusters must come in handy on such turns, and he responded with growling something along the lines of " would be a damn sight easier if you were on the right side"  - i disagreed with him ....

(snip)

 

 

I agree with you :D 

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12 hours ago, Hartlebury lad said:

We descended the top lock onto the 90 degree turn opposite the dry dock going to go into the middle lock.

There was a boat just about to leave the middle lock coming up, so in order to facilitate his passage up, i stayed on the left, tight on the sharp bend, holding a centre line, scraping my own boat, but allowing him an easier turn (albeit on the "wrong" side) into the lock with a wider turning passage.

I'm confused - I thought the lock landing was on the left, on the inside of the bend, making that the 'right' side anyway? Or do you just mean you kept the boat behind the lock landing, more on the bend itself? 

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1 hour ago, magictime said:

I'm confused - I thought the lock landing was on the left, on the inside of the bend, making that the 'right' side anyway? Or do you just mean you kept the boat behind the lock landing, more on the bend itself? 

It is. I believe the boat coming up was referring to passing port to port, probably not having noticed the bollards on the inside of the bend.

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7 hours ago, Iain_S said:

It is. I believe the boat coming up was referring to passing port to port, probably not having noticed the bollards on the inside of the bend.

I cam up last week as a boat was coming down, the Volockie suggested I wait in the lock for the boat to come round the bend. He came round the outside and the Volockies comment was "well that made it awkward for you" Me I just expect anything to happen.

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22 hours ago, Hartlebury lad said:

Yes -Middlewich does have an air of grumpiness and possible conflict. Here is another conundrum ....

 

We descended the top lock onto the 90 degree turn opposite the dry dock going to go into the middle lock.

There was a boat just about to leave the middle lock coming up, so in order to facilitate his passage up, i stayed on the left, tight on the sharp bend, holding a centre line, scraping my own boat, but allowing him an easier turn (albeit on the "wrong" side) into the lock with a wider turning passage.

I made polite small talk over the roof, commenting on how his bow thrusters must come in handy on such turns, and he responded with growling something along the lines of " would be a damn sight easier if you were on the right side"  - i disagreed with him ....

The volockies were saying he was moaning about stuff coming up the lock too.

 

I simply don't understand why some people choose this way of life, or leisure pursuit, when they clearly dont seem capable of much in the way of civil behaviour or good natured communication. The guy was a typical example of the breed - sixties, stocky, follicly challenged with grey goatee, sturdy replica "working boat" (with bow thrusters?) and shouting instructions at his poor wife from the back of the boat .....

 

 

Came down Wardle and the 3 today. No queue for Wardle, no boats waiting to come up. No queue for the 3. What’s going on! We did pass a boat coming up - our boat and their boat both exited their respective locks simultaneously but both negotiated the bend with no crashery or shouting. Jeff was driving, obviously!

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26 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Came down Wardle and the 3 today. No queue for Wardle, no boats waiting to come up. No queue for the 3. What’s going on! We did pass a boat coming up - our boat and their boat both exited their respective locks simultaneously but both negotiated the bend with no crashery or shouting. Jeff was driving, obviously!

 

This thread must have scared a lot off boaters off using the Middlewich locks. ?

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On 07/07/2019 at 00:26, TheBiscuits said:

It's quite startling how inaccurate my boathandling becomes under such circumstances. 

 

Usually I can put the boat exactly where I want it regardless of wind or water, but obnoxious gits seem to make it awfully difficult to steer ... maybe it's performance pressure!

Yes, and sometimes I find it takes quite a long time to get the forward (or reverse, depending on situation) gear to engage. Seems to take forever to get going!

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On 06/07/2019 at 23:47, magictime said:

Help me out here...

 

We followed a boat down the top lock of the Middlewich Three today, leaving another boat behind us presumably waiting to come down after us. Pulled into the pound below to find the boat ahead of us just pulling out of the middle lock, as you'd expect. At the same time there was also a boat just pulling into the empty bottom lock from below, ready to come up.

 

Now obviously we could have saved a lock's worth of water by waiting for that boat to come up the bottom lock, pull in to the empty middle lock, and come up that too. But we figured that (a) we had time to fill the middle lock and get down it before they'd be ready to come in anyway, (b) it wasn't really for us to decide that any boats behind us should wait that extra 10 or 15 minutes, (c) there was a risk of the pound we were in (very short and on a very tight bend) getting quite congested if another boat came down into it while the other boat was coming up, (d) there was no particular issue with water levels, and, yes, (e) - at the end of the day, wasn't it our lock, since there was no boat actually in the pound below ready to come up? 

 

Well, the people in charge of that boat - who were the Andersen Boats staff, showing hire boaters through their first locks - certainly didn't think so. I missed most of it being on the back deck, but they gave Mrs Magictime a right earful about 'stealing their lock'; and when I pulled into 'their' lock to descend, the guy whacked the first paddle up without looking for any indication from me that I was safely in, then insisted on barging in front of Mrs Magictime and whacking the other paddle up too. Another staff member then made some patronising remark about how 'if we knew the waterways' we'd know we should have waited for them to save water.

 

This all just seems a bit ridiculous though - I mean, just how far below you on a flight can another boat be and still claim the lock you're at is 'theirs' by right just because it's in their favour, regardless of other considerations about time, congestion etc? (They certainly thought the top lock was 'theirs' too, because they said so.)

 

Right or wrong, their attitude just stank, muscling in and working the lock for us etc., it just felt like they thought they owned the whole flight.

Bit late coming to this party . . . 

 

If it was a straight flight I would have said that it was fifty-fifty but in that pound there is very little room to manoeuvre, especially coming down hill. (Re another post, I would generally come to the left, towpath side) to allow a boat coming up to get into next lock much easier) If the situation and timing was as you described, and not just a little bit adjusted (LTRU!) then I suspect I would have done much the same. You certainly do not want to have two boats waiting in the bent pound - the second might well opt to stay in the mouth of the lock which would make the task for the boat coming up much harder - especially if beginners.

On 07/07/2019 at 09:52, hider said:

If you turned a lock that was set for the boat coming in the opposite direction, you stole the lock. End of.

Wardle canal junction is confusing if the boat waiting to come up is hiding around the corner on the T&M instead of being on the lock mooring immediately below Wardle lock.

May be simpler now that the water point is not there.

But Victor (nbw) has recently complained about the loss of that water point!

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On 07/07/2019 at 22:48, Captain Pegg said:

The views expressed are at least 2 to 1 in favour of waiting. It seems a lot of those defending your act do so with a particular knowledge of the flight in question. Hence to answer your question directly we need to assume a more regular set of circumstances.

 

I would tend to agree with two locks ahead then it’s OK to turn as a rule of thumb but that assumes it’s just you and the approaching boat. In such a scenario you each have a lock to work and then the one for whom the next lock is most in favour should get the lock that’s still between you. If you were to turn a lock on a boat that is nearer than two locks away then you are likely to be wasting water and delaying them. I think you can generally do one of those things in isolation but if you are doing both you’re probably in the wrong.

 

From your description I think you throw in some potentially spurious factors - water levels and the following boat - but seem to be avoiding saying much about the boat you were following in respect of where it was and whether they had left the gates open for the ascending boat in the bottom lock to directly enter the lock you turned.

 

JP

 

I disagree - there may be some general principles, but no general rules. (other than to obey CaRT signs!( Every situation, especially on old canals, is different and it is the crew's responsibility to assess each one on the basis of the principles (which may also give contra indications sometimes) And yes, some of the replies are exactly that, based on some experience of that flight. 

 

One factor, assuming you really do know the flight and not just taking advantage) is that the hire base is just below the bottom lock, IIRC. Without actually walking down to the lock it can sometimes be quite hard to decide whether a boat is coming up or not, just moving around. On turn round days, the ire boats can themselves add to the difficulties, especially for inexperienced boaters.

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On 09/07/2019 at 08:59, magictime said:

I'm confused - I thought the lock landing was on the left, on the inside of the bend, making that the 'right' side anyway? Or do you just mean you kept the boat behind the lock landing, more on the bend itself? 

Once round the bend (!) there is not much more than a boat length anyway, especially allowing for the significant distance (sideways) from the towpath to the lock mouth which requires some space back from the lock to turn out from the lock landing. Not sure that I've made that clear, easier when doing it or looking on Google Sat View!

22 hours ago, nicknorman said:

Came down Wardle and the 3 today. No queue for Wardle, no boats waiting to come up. No queue for the 3. What’s going on! We did pass a boat coming up - our boat and their boat both exited their respective locks simultaneously but both negotiated the bend with no crashery or shouting. Jeff was driving, obviously!

Presumably not a turn around day for Anderson

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5 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

I disagree - there may be some general principles, but no general rules. (other than to obey CaRT signs!( Every situation, especially on old canals, is different and it is the crew's responsibility to assess each one on the basis of the principles (which may also give contra indications sometimes) And yes, some of the replies are exactly that, based on some experience of that flight. 

 

One factor, assuming you really do know the flight and not just taking advantage) is that the hire base is just below the bottom lock, IIRC. Without actually walking down to the lock it can sometimes be quite hard to decide whether a boat is coming up or not, just moving around. On turn round days, the ire boats can themselves add to the difficulties, especially for inexperienced boaters.

My post was worded with sufficient leeway. Anyway a rule is a principle. Unlike a law which is mandated; or definitive in the scientific sense.

 

I’ll stand by my view that in general it’s OK to use additional water or to delay another boat but not both in one lock operation.

 

Still I’m glad to hear you don’t agree as I recall my father turned a lock ahead of you at Stourbridge a few months ago that I would have set for you. ?

 

JP

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On 09/07/2019 at 17:33, ditchcrawler said:

I cam up last week as a boat was coming down, the Volockie suggested I wait in the lock for the boat to come round the bend. He came round the outside and the Volockies comment was "well that made it awkward for you" Me I just expect anything to happen.

It's actually quite difficult to do anything else, as you can't steer until the stern is clear of the lock. Hence why waiting on the inside of that bend is a good idea. (I know you know this! :D:cheers: )

 

Edited by Iain_S

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We stole a lock this afternoon. Bishop Meadow lock. Leicester Arm north of Loughborough.  We topped up with water which took bloomin ages. No boat movements. Two boats going down as we approached the water point and the lock. 

 

After what must must have been forty minutes, I gave up on having a full tank. It was nearly full, anyway I opened the upper paddles o fill the lock for preparation and returned to the boat to recover the hose etc. Looked back at the lock and there's. Crew there from a bat wanting to come up. I ran (walked quickly) back towards the lock to shut of the paddles, to be greeted with a cheerily wave and a thumbs up. Phew.

 

Couldnt have been more pleasant people. 

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2 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:

My post was worded with sufficient leeway. Anyway a rule is a principle. Unlike a law which is mandated; or definitive in the scientific sense.

 

I’ll stand by my view that in general it’s OK to use additional water or to delay another boat but not both in one lock operation.

 

Still I’m glad to hear you don’t agree as I recall my father turned a lock ahead of you at Stourbridge a few months ago that I would have set for you. ?

 

JP

Not sure I recall that . . . 

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On 09/07/2019 at 08:59, magictime said:

I'm confused - I thought the lock landing was on the left, on the inside of the bend, making that the 'right' side anyway? Or do you just mean you kept the boat behind the lock landing, more on the bend itself?  

Yes - front of the boat near the first bollard ....
2 hours ago, Mike Todd said:

Once round the bend (!) there is not much more than a boat length anyway, especially allowing for the significant distance (sideways) from the towpath to the lock mouth which requires some space back from the lock to turn out from the lock landing. Not sure that I've made that clear, easier when doing it or looking on Google Sat View! 

 

Exactamundo Mike, especially on a breezy day ....

 

15 minutes ago, Iain_S said:

It's actually quite difficult to do anything else, as you can't steer until the stern is clear of the lock. Hence why waiting on the inside of that bend is a good idea. (I know you know this! :D:cheers: )

 

Cheers Iain ,and these comments collectively makes me feel vindicated, as if i was at least indulging in good boating practice! Still learning after 6 years. Cheers chaps x

 

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