What percentage will will you declare

[cotswoldsman]

Well not long now!! The subject has been debated after 01/11/08 when ever we fill up with diesel we will have to sign a declaration stating what percentage of the diesel is for propulsion ( you will then have to pay 40.66 ppl duty on this part) and the balance would be non propulsion use (no duty payable)

Edited October 17, 2008 by cotswoldsman

[WJM]

My regular diesel place tell me they will insist in 60/40 unless you can prove otherwise.

[cotswoldsman]

My regular diesel place tell me they will insist in 60/40 unless you can prove otherwise.

 

Sorry should have said that I was not trying to continue the debate about what retailers are doing. I was going to use the asumption that retailers will be selling diesel as per the regulations set down by HMCR.

 

Just for information was talking to manager of Norbury Wharf yesterday and was informed that they would be following the regulations as laid down by HMCR but guess that would be expected from a retailer that runs a good business and at present sells diesel for less than 0.65 ppl so the 2 retailers I have spoken to this week Turners at Wheaton Aston will both let boaters make the declaration as set out by HMCR. Guess I know where I will fill up whenever I am close to Shropshire Union.

[dor]

I don't have a diesel heater, but feel that 40% is a reasonable figure for what I use for heating water and topping up batteries when not cruising.

 

What still doesn't seem to be clear is how you split it. I.e. If you cruise for six hours one day, then run whilst moored for 4 hours the next that is clearly a 60/40 split. But if you cruise for 10 hours, can you consider that 60% was to move you and 40% was for running the alternator and heating the calorifier?

[GSer]

My last two weeks (as long as I continue a similar pattern tomorrow night) is 16% propulsion / 84% service so I put 20/80

 

Paul

[stuart]

My last two weeks (as long as I continue a similar pattern tomorrow night) is 16% propulsion / 84% service so I put 20/80

 

Paul

 

No, you'd declare 16/84 otherwise you'd be lying to HMRC !

[Hairy-Neil]

No, you'd declare 16/84 otherwise you'd be lying to HMRC !

 

That option wasn't in the poll......

[carlt]

Can you add "sailing across the channel, to top up" please?

[magnetman]

there would be significant seasonal variations I'd have thought.

 

even if you have no diesel heater you will probably be making more electric in the winter while stationary as opposed to a by-product of cruising.

 

its going to get a bit complicated do boatyards have slide rules

[BlueStringPudding]

Remind me - what's the minimum distance you're supposed to travel every 14 days in order to remain within CC regulations. I thought it was 5km (or was it 5 miles?) but I can't find the information now I come to browse the BW websites.

 

Any ideas anyone?

[alan_fincher]

Remind me - what's the minimum distance you're supposed to travel every 14 days in order to remain within CC regulations. I thought it was 5km (or was it 5 miles?) but I can't find the information now I come to browse the BW websites.

 

Any ideas anyone?

I didn't think there was an actual number quoted, but could be wrong. Doesn't it actually say something that implies what is considered a reasonable amount might be different in a big city from in the country ? Or did I just make that up ?

[Keeping Up]

I don't have a diesel heater, but I reckon I spend 20% of my time running the engine when moored, to charge the batteries and provide hot water, so I'll be declaring 80/20. To stay legal, I could do that by declaring 60/40 on alternate fills and 100/0 on the others, which is what I will probably do if I find that the retailers are set up for those options only.

[Bones]

I have absolutely no idea, and unless it is done at the pump as a standard thing I am going to find myself having apperplexy and requiring gas and air. I will have to sit down sometime and do some maths (I can feel the heart rate fluttering already), and work out whether it would actually pay me to generate electricity and have hot water from my engine. It is all completely daft in my view, people like me will just claim 60/40 and actually use 100% propulsion, and others will be using 100% for heating etc and not being able to claim.

[magnetman]

I have absolutely no idea, and unless it is done at the pump as a standard thing I am going to find myself having apperplexy and requiring gas and air. I will have to sit down sometime and do some maths (I can feel the heart rate fluttering already), and work out whether it would actually pay me to generate electricity and have hot water from my engine. It is all completely daft in my view, people like me will just claim 60/40 and actually use 100% propulsion, and others will be using 100% for heating etc and not being able to claim.

which is why before long I reckon we will pay 100% at the pump then have to reclaim any heating/generation 'allowance' via a form to the revenue. Its the obvious way. black ball point pen only.

 

or maybe an online system?

 

edited typo

Edited October 17, 2008 by magnetman

[churchward]

I have absolutely no idea, and unless it is done at the pump as a standard thing I am going to find myself having apperplexy and requiring gas and air. I will have to sit down sometime and do some maths (I can feel the heart rate fluttering already), and work out whether it would actually pay me to generate electricity and have hot water from my engine. It is all completely daft in my view, people like me will just claim 60/40 and actually use 100% propulsion, and others will be using 100% for heating etc and not being able to claim.

 

I agree and will be doing the same. Folk will mainly do what is easiest (I know I will in this matter) I have no interest in spending my time worring about consumption of non-propolsion diesel etc.

[blackrose]

My regular diesel place tell me they will insist in 60/40 unless you can prove otherwise.

 

Where are you getting your diesel from? It sounds like your regular diesel place hasn't understood the new ruling. My understanding is that it is up to you to make a personal declaration, not your supplier. They merely have to submit all the declarations to HMR&C on an annual basis and do not have any discretionary right to refuse whatever declaration you think it's reasonable to make. My regular diesel supplier told me that since I move so rarely I would be stupid not to declare 90% for domestic use and 10% for propulsion, which is exactly what I intend to do.

Edited October 17, 2008 by blackrose

[mayalld]

Where are you getting your diesel from? It sounds like your regular diesel place hasn't understood the new ruling. My understanding is that it is up to you to make a personal declaration, not your supplier. They merely have to submit all the declarations to HMR&C on an annual basis and do not have any discretionary right to refuse whatever declaration you think it's reasonable to make. My regular diesel supplier told me that since I move so rarely I would be stupid not to declare 90% for domestic use and 10% for propulsion, which is exactly what I intend to do.

 

You are correct that it is up to you to decide what declaration you wish to make.

 

It is up to the supplier to decide whether he wishes to offer a full-service, or wishes to simplify his operation by forgoing the custom of those who do not wish to declare a 60/40 split.

[bottle]

I have absolutely no idea, and unless it is done at the pump as a standard thing I am going to find myself having apperplexy and requiring gas and air. I will have to sit down sometime and do some maths (I can feel the heart rate fluttering already), and work out whether it would actually pay me to generate electricity and have hot water from my engine. It is all completely daft in my view, people like me will just claim 60/40 and actually use 100% propulsion, and others will be using 100% for heating etc and not being able to claim.

 

Hi Bones

 

You will not be using 100% propulsion because although the boat will be moving some of that fuel is also being use to power the alternator, that charges the batteries (domestic) and also heating your water.

 

Herein lies the problem it is not clear, well not to me, whether the split should be measured that when the boat is moving that is 100% propulsion and when the boat is moored that is heating and generation.

 

Or

 

That when the boat is cruising there is a percentage allowance for heating and generation and when moored that is totally heating and generation.

 

Twin tank scenario (totally separate tanks) is another point for discussion.

[Smelly]

10 months of the year the only trip we do is between Alvechurch and Brum, I think 11 miles, i.e to diesel up then potter back to our moorings. 4 1/2 hours there and back, might take a couple of weeks but that's about it.

 

Considering we go through abut 60-80 litres a month (that'll decrease with genny and solar I hope) 10, maybe 20 percent seems ample to me. If the amount of fuel we buy goes down, we'll still pay tax on that 15 litres

 

Having discussed it with one of our two usual diesel suppliers we'll simply be looking how much goes in and deducting 15 litres as a percentage. With any luck, with a nearly full tank now, next year when we go out on a big jaunt it'll still be nearly full, and it'll only when we get back that the question will come as to what we're using it for. So, as we're looking prospectively at what we will be using then we can still knock off the 15 litres.

 

We'll basically be floating along for as long as possible on the fuel we put on top of the fuel in the tank now...

 

Of course, if we have to purge the tank for the Severn run it'll be interesting...

[WJM]

Where are you getting your diesel from? It sounds like your regular diesel place hasn't understood the new ruling. My understanding is that it is up to you to make a personal declaration, not your supplier. They merely have to submit all the declarations to HMR&C on an annual basis and do not have any discretionary right to refuse whatever declaration you think it's reasonable to make. My regular diesel supplier told me that since I move so rarely I would be stupid not to declare 90% for domestic use and 10% for propulsion, which is exactly what I intend to do.

 

 

Thames Ditton Marina

 

I am sure they understand it ok - but cant be bothered get into a fight with the boot boys from HMRC. Remember, with the VAT people you are guilty until proven innocent. I cant say I blame the marina. I charge VAT on virtually everything I sell wether it is VATable or not. If a customer insists an item is Zero Rated then I will capitulate if they can prove it to me. If you get the VAT wrong the Enforcement Officers just kick you in the head and take your money.

Edited October 17, 2008 by WJM

[Bones]

so as long as I punt my boat when I am moving it and not needing water or electricity, I could use 100% for non propulsion?

[cotswoldsman]

Thames Ditton Marina

 

I am sure they understand it ok - but cant be bothered get into a fight with the boot boys from HMRC. Remember, with the VAT people you are guilty until proven innocent. I cant say I blame the marina. I charge VAT on virtually everything I sell wether it is VATable or not. If a customer insists an item is Zero Rated then I will capitulate if they can prove it to me. If you get the VAT wrong the Enforcement Officers just kick you in the head and take your money.

 

Soory I am trying not to go the same way as the other topic but can't resist. The marina will not have any problem from HMRC because its the boater that is making the declaration.

 

Please print out the document and if you have any problems then show the marina/retailer the rules as laid out by HMRC

 

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/briefs/excise-duty/brief4908.htm

[KenK]

Twin tank scenario (totally separate tanks) is another point for discussion.

 

Bottle,

I have two totally separate tanks, the heating one is on the front deck. Talking to my local supplier he said it is straightforward, 100% for heating in the front tank and whatever I want to declare in the back, it's up to me.

 

Ken

[WJM]

"The marina will not have any problem from HMRC because its the boater that is making the declaration."

 

Total and utter rubbish - when you handle VAT you are an unpaid tax collector and if you make a mistake they hit you really hard. You, the retailer are the easy static target who they hit first. They will not be interested in the fact that your customer lied to you. They will simply want the missing VAT from you, the retailer. That is how they work. If you cant find your customer to recover it, tough!

 

 

It has already been covered on other topics on this forum, HMRC operate virtually outside of the law. Their powers are frightening, their judgments are terrifyingly harsh. Only a fool would mess with them!

Edited October 17, 2008 by WJM

[steelaway]

Well not long now!! The subject has been debated after 01/11/08 when ever we fill up with diesel we will have to sign a declaration stating what percentage of the diesel is for propulsion ( you will then have to pay 40.66 ppl duty on this part) and the balance would be non propulsion use (no duty payable)

 

 

If you are a live aboard can you claim the propusion needed to collect the diesel from the pump is a delivery charge? - so 100%

 

I think to be fair in my case 50/50 in summer (light nights / warmer) and 40/60 (shorter days for moving and colder) in winter

 

Alex