London Boaters - Government Review

[Dave_P]

14 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

The problem is that when the recent ( 94 ) legislation was implemented there were not many genuine liveaboard boaters and those of us that were then living aboard had always understood we had to move around or have a mooring and we WANTED to live on boats it was a lifestyle choice. Unfortunately today the newby boaters ( not all ) seem to think they have a right to live how and where they want and expect the ccing rules to soften because they have moved on a boat and have no genuine intention to cruise. Last week on the K and A reinforced this view with me as basicaly its a linear dumping ground. You are very correct in that all this nonsense about living in London is simply that ( nonsense ) jobs are available in areas that would enable most of these people a better lifestyle with more expendable income even when paying rent as its much more affordable in many places. Shock horror people actualy go to work in places other than London. The great problem for people like myself who have always either CONTINUOUSLY cruised or paid for a mooring for now near on thirty years is something will eventualy change and it will be buggered up for everybody by the pee takers who wont give a damn.

From what people have told me, back in the 60s, 70s and 80s there were plenty of liveaboards with no official home mooring who just set up 'camp' on a particular spot and never moved at all.  Have I been misinformed? If I haven't then the movements patterns of the newbys involves far more cruising.

[WotEver]

21 minutes ago, Dave_P said:

Ooh!  Get you, Mr Posh!

Not really... you missed off the last place

6 minutes ago, Dave_P said:

Media City still only accounts for a tiny proportion of media jobs, compared to London.

Yes indeed but the contagion is spreading. C4 is now looking to relocate and Cov, Brum and other Midlands cities have put in bids. 

[Dave_P]

3 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Not really... you missed off the last place

 

I have family in Crawley.  You have my sympathies.

[Dave_P]

3 minutes ago, WotEver said:

 

Yes indeed but the contagion is spreading. C4 is now looking to relocate and Cov, Brum and other Midlands cities have put in bids. 

The proposed Channel 4 is only to reverse the significant loss of media jobs in the Midlands over the last 15 years or so.  Pebble Mill used to be a major programming centre.  It was hugely downsized into The Mailbox, but was at least still reasonably busy when I worked there.  Now its like a ghost town.  My job was relocated to Bristol so I left the world of TV and retrained to do something else.

[mrsmelly]

1 minute ago, Dave_P said:

From what people have told me, back in the 60s, 70s and 80s there were plenty of liveaboards with no official home mooring who just set up 'camp' on a particular spot and never moved at all.  Have I been misinformed? If I haven't then the movements patterns of the newbys involves far more cruising.

I think you may well be right but I didnt move aboard till 89 and as a for instance in 93 we moored at Bathampton and 94 at Foxhangers. The stretch of canal between Bradford on avon and Bath had a few isolated lengths of pukka long term moorings and something like 7 0r 8 liveaboards were today there are nearer 7 or 8 hundred most of which barely if ever move, some groups of boats are more like communes than boats. I agree  that as a for instance just outside Braunston on the North Oxford there was a small group who never moved for years so its always been something of a problem but most of us complied at least most of the time but we are coming to a point very soon where the straw will break the camels back.

[nicknorman]

13 minutes ago, Dave_P said:

From what people have told me, back in the 60s, 70s and 80s there were plenty of liveaboards with no official home mooring who just set up 'camp' on a particular spot and never moved at all.  Have I been misinformed? If I haven't then the movements patterns of the newbys involves far more cruising.

No. In the 60 and 70s you rarely saw other boats and even more rarely saw people living on them. The KandA didn’t exist as a navigable waterway. Didn’t do much boating in the 80s but by the time we went back to it in about 1990 the whole feel of the place was much more crowded, far more liveaboards and of course in places near the SE of England there has since then been a massive increase in live aboards. It is no coincidence that this coincides with areas of expensive housing. You don’t get wall to wall liveaboards on the Rochdale, for example!

 

Housing costs are a supply and demand issue. Council houses sold off cheap, new council housing not built, half of London in foreign ownership and not actually lived in. Uncontrolled growth of cities isn’t really sustainable, as housing and transport fundamentally can’t cope (unless we go back to huge tower blocks). We as a country have made so many mistakes and now we are reaping the “reward”!

[WotEver]

14 minutes ago, Dave_P said:

The proposed Channel 4 is only to reverse the significant loss of media jobs in the Midlands over the last 15 years or so.  Pebble Mill used to be a major programming centre.  It was hugely downsized into The Mailbox, but was at least still reasonably busy when I worked there.  Now its like a ghost town.  My job was relocated to Bristol so I left the world of TV and retrained to do something else.

Not before time. My missus cried when we drove past the demolished Pebble Mill. We spent very many hours there in the 70’s and 80’s. The Mailbox was always destined to fail, and post houses in Bristol are also suffering now. I edited hundreds of hours of stuff for the beeb before it effectively stopped making programming in The Midlands. Even Spielberg recognised the talent pool when he shot Ready Player One in Brum last year. 

[reg]

Redacted

Edited June 12, 2018 by reg

[RLWP]

3 minutes ago, reg said:

Slightly OT but why has the initial thread got an advertisement in it, or is it just me. 

I get:

 

Quote

–– ADVERTISEMENT ––

but no advert

[Chewbacka]

Just now, RLWP said:

I get:

 

but no advert

Possibly because the whole post was a 'cut and paste' and included an advert place holder.

[Sir Nibble]

Perhaps if the colossal subsidy London has from the UK were more sensibly distributed the problem might go away. As for people providing services not being able to live in London, that's London's problem and the city can either do without these people or pay them enough to live in the never never land.

As for continuous cruising, bona fide for navigation throughout the period of the license surely must demand a fair bit of tiller time and the only metric to quantify that for CaRT is distance travelled. So how much navigation is it reasonable to expect? One day a week? Two? How far do you move in a day, one mile, ten miles? Certainly I agree with the judge in the Davies case that living aboard to facilitate navigation is fine but navigating a minimum to facilitate living aboard is not bona fide.

[reg]

7 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:

Possibly because the whole post was a 'cut and paste' and included an advert place holder.

That's when I went Doh! and tried to remove my post before anyone realised I was an idiot. 

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Sir Nibble said:

Perhaps if the colossal subsidy London has from the UK were more sensibly distributed the problem might go away. As for people providing services not being able to live in London, that's London's problem and the city can either do without these people or pay them enough to live in the never never land.

?

 

London’s thriving economy generates a £26.5bn surplus that is recycled by the government to provide financial help to Britain’s less well-off regions, according to an official breakdown of the public finances.

 

The first attempt by the Office for National Statistics to break down the UK’s budget deficit by region has demonstrated the importance of the capital and highlighted how taxes and public spending are used to narrow the north-south divide.

 

Experimental data from the ONS showed that only three regions of the UK – London, the south-east and the east of England – ran a budget surplus in the 2015-16 financial year, the latest year for which figures are available.

Every Londoner provided £3,070 more in tax revenues than they received in public spending, while people living in the south-east ran a surplus of £1,670 per head. The east of England turned a small deficit in 2014-15 into a surplus of £242 per head in 2015-16.

 

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicsectorfinance/articles/countryandregionalpublicsectorfinances/2015to2016

[Dave_P]

46 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Not before time. My missus cried when we drove past the demolished Pebble Mill. We spent very many hours there in the 70’s and 80’s. The Mailbox was always destined to fail, and post houses in Bristol are also suffering now. I edited hundreds of hours of stuff for the beeb before it effectively stopped making programming in The Midlands. Even Spielberg recognised the talent pool when he shot Ready Player One in Brum last year. 

I did enjoy seeing Livery Street in it!

[Dave_P]

1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

No. In the 60 and 70s you rarely saw other boats and even more rarely saw people living on them. The KandA didn’t exist as a navigable waterway. Didn’t do much boating in the 80s but by the time we went back to it in about 1990 the whole feel of the place was much more crowded, far more liveaboards and of course in places near the SE of England there has since then been a massive increase in live aboards. It is no coincidence that this coincides with areas of expensive housing. You don’t get wall to wall liveaboards on the Rochdale, for example!

 

Housing costs are a supply and demand issue. Council houses sold off cheap, new council housing not built, half of London in foreign ownership and not actually lived in. Uncontrolled growth of cities isn’t really sustainable, as housing and transport fundamentally can’t cope (unless we go back to huge tower blocks). We as a country have made so many mistakes and now we are reaping the “reward”!

Perhaps I shouldn't have used the word 'plenty'.  But the liveaboards that were about were not required to move to the extent that they are now.  Or in any case, they weren't being enforced against in the same way.  I know someone who lived on the Regents Canal in the 80s, right by the zoo and, as far as I know, didn't move for years.

 

I found there was a surprising number of liveaboards on the Rochdale, especially the eastern end.

27 minutes ago, welly said:

?

 

London’s thriving economy generates a £26.5bn surplus that is recycled by the government to provide financial help to Britain’s less well-off regions, according to an official breakdown of the public finances.

 

The first attempt by the Office for National Statistics to break down the UK’s budget deficit by region has demonstrated the importance of the capital and highlighted how taxes and public spending are used to narrow the north-south divide.

 

Experimental data from the ONS showed that only three regions of the UK – London, the south-east and the east of England – ran a budget surplus in the 2015-16 financial year, the latest year for which figures are available.

Every Londoner provided £3,070 more in tax revenues than they received in public spending, while people living in the south-east ran a surplus of £1,670 per head. The east of England turned a small deficit in 2014-15 into a surplus of £242 per head in 2015-16.

 

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicsectorfinance/articles/countryandregionalpublicsectorfinances/2015to2016

Thanks for this.  I was trying to make the same point earlier - but badly. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Dave_P said:

Perhaps I shouldn't have used the word 'plenty'.  But the liveaboards that were about were not required to move to the extent that they are now.  Or in any case, they weren't being enforced against in the same way.  I know someone who lived on the Regents Canal in the 80s, right by the zoo and, as far as I know, didn't move for years.

 

I found there was a surprising number of liveaboards on the Rochdale, especially the eastern end.

There's a boat just down from Camden, outside The Constitution pub, that hasn't moved in at least 18 months. I wonder what he does for water, unless he does 3am runs down to St. Pancras. And I wonder what the hold up with the CRT not pulling his boat out of the water is. For all the mithering about "continuous moorers", if the CRT doesn't (or can't) do anything about it then people will continue to do so.

 

[Sir Nibble]

35 minutes ago, welly said:

?

 

London’s thriving economy generates a £26.5bn surplus that is recycled by the government to provide financial help to Britain’s less well-off regions, according to an official breakdown of the public finances.

 

The first attempt by the Office for National Statistics to break down the UK’s budget deficit by region has demonstrated the importance of the capital and highlighted how taxes and public spending are used to narrow the north-south divide.

 

Experimental data from the ONS showed that only three regions of the UK – London, the south-east and the east of England – ran a budget surplus in the 2015-16 financial year, the latest year for which figures are available.

Every Londoner provided £3,070 more in tax revenues than they received in public spending, while people living in the south-east ran a surplus of £1,670 per head. The east of England turned a small deficit in 2014-15 into a surplus of £242 per head in 2015-16.

 

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicsectorfinance/articles/countryandregionalpublicsectorfinances/2015to2016

So what is so special about London? Something in the air? Are Londoners special commercial supermen? Or is it that London is subsidised by care and control of just about every marketable and cultural asset the nation possesses?

[Dave_P]

11 minutes ago, Sir Nibble said:

So what is so special about London? Something in the air? Are Londoners special commercial supermen? Or is it that London is subsidised by care and control of just about every marketable and cultural asset the nation possesses?

What's special about London is that it is a major global finance and commercial hub.  Without it the UK would be poorer overall.  I'd agree that the wealth created by London should be equitably distributed around the country though.

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, reg said:

That's when I went Doh! and tried to remove my post before anyone realised I was an idiot. 

I gave up on trying that years ago

[cuthound]

1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

No. In the 60 and 70s you rarely saw other boats and even more rarely saw people living on them. The KandA didn’t exist as a navigable waterway. Didn’t do much boating in the 80s but by the time we went back to it in about 1990 the whole feel of the place was much more crowded, far more liveaboards and of course in places near the SE of England there has since then been a massive increase in live aboards. It is no coincidence that this coincides with areas of expensive housing. You don’t get wall to wall liveaboards on the Rochdale, for example!

 

Housing costs are a supply and demand issue. Council houses sold off cheap, new council housing not built, half of London in foreign ownership and not actually lived in. Uncontrolled growth of cities isn’t really sustainable, as housing and transport fundamentally can’t cope (unless we go back to huge tower blocks). We as a country have made so many mistakes and now we are reaping the “reward”!

 

Yes, that is my recollection as well, certainly of the 70's and 80's.

 

 The regulations allowing continuous cruising were, IIRC, hastily included to cater for a very small number of CCers,  who genuinely cruised continuously without need for a mooring.

 

The only boat that I recall staying in one place without ever moving much was Arthur Bray's Poacher, which was moored outside the Marina at Braunston from his captaincy of working boats Raymond & Nutfield until his death in the the early 90's.

[Tanglewood]

3 hours ago, Dave_P said:

We should all be grateful to those people who struggle on existing inside the M25.  We need them!

Now that has made me sit up and think.

 

Visiting London by train recently, and then travelling around by bus, I was at loss to think what a lot of the people who work in London do, that could not be done equally well elsewhere.  I know it is the centre of almost everything, but almost everything could move.  It would appear that there are nothing like enough offices, as the several cafes I visited were full of folk talking on mobile phones and at work on lap-tops.  Then it occurred to me that almost every third person was busy servicing people like me who  who visited London for some reason or another, so at street level nothing but hotels cafes and shops.  It is these 'service' jobs that re poorly paid. I suspect that the influx of boat dwellers  is less about affordable housing - and more about a lifestyle choice - London is a festival city. Those who are making the move down the Grand Union, always seem, when you talk to them,  to be the same sort - white, educated to degree level, but not found a job, happy to accept zero hours contract, first boat, seems like an adventure .........  I call it the Dick Whittington syndrome.  

 

2,000 more homes available  would make no difference to the real housing crisis in the capital.    It is a disgrace that this market economy means that  the north-east can provide a really decent, reasonably-priced home, - but no living, whereas the south east appears to be able to offer a living (even if you are only making coffee at £3.00 per plastic mug)  but no home.

[lampini]

A few years ago, we were living in Greenwich, London. Having the naive dream of living afloat... six months later, having realised that it wouldn't be our scene to do it within London, i stopped being an event technician and retrained to be a bus driver! So we both managed to relocate to the midlands, found an excellent on-line mooring and are currently on holiday (on the boat!) moored just north of Braunston.. Having experienced both (i have a lot of ex-work colleagues who live aboard in london..) it's my humble opinion that London will become it's own "area" with different rules and Licenses... The demographic is totally different down there, what folks want from the canals is different, for instance, SUSTRANS seems to want all the towpaths turned into cycle only paths (not really but u kno wot i mean - we actually stopped our towpath walks cos the cyclists were such awful lycra louts!) and lots of young liveaboards are desperate for more water/rubbish/elsan points within the M25 area..

 

Out here in the boondocks, it really seems like a different world!

[mrsmelly]

4 minutes ago, Tanglewood said:

Now that has made me sit up and think.

 

Visiting London by train recently, and then travelling around by bus, I was at loss to think what a lot of the people who work in London do, that could not be done equally well elsewhere.  I know it is the centre of almost everything, but almost everything could move.  It would appear that there are nothing like enough offices, as the several cafes I visited were full of folk talking on mobile phones and at work on lap-tops.  Then it occurred to me that almost every third person was busy servicing people like me who  who visited London for some reason or another, so at street level nothing but hotels cafes and shops.  It is these 'service' jobs that re poorly paid. I suspect that the influx of boat dwellers  is less about affordable housing - and more about a lifestyle choice - London is a festival city. Those who are making the move down the Grand Union, always seem, when you talk to them,  to be the same sort - white, educated to degree level, but not found a job, happy to accept zero hours contract, first boat, seems like an adventure .........  I call it the Dick Whittington syndrome.  

 

2,000 more homes available  would make no difference to the real housing crisis in the capital.    It is a disgrace that this market economy means that  the north-east can provide a really decent, reasonably-priced home, - but no living, whereas the south east appears to be able to offer a living (even if you are only making coffee at £3.00 per plastic mug)  but no home.

Much of what you say  is correct. I have always found it ridiculous that people cram into a horrible London environment and work for similar money to oop norrf therefore having a crap lifestyle due to overheads. My very bright nephew didnt  bother with uni but after three years running his own business got a mortgage first time of asking on a very nice 3 bed semi with big gardens and garage etc for £135k at age 21 in a nice Yorkshire village only last year. Years ago whilst running a pub in Gloucester I discovered that many of the big insurance companies were based there makes obvious sense for over heads.

[cuthound]

46 minutes ago, Tanglewood said:

Now that has made me sit up and think.

 

Visiting London by train recently, and then travelling around by bus, I was at loss to think what a lot of the people who work in London do, that could not be done equally well elsewhere.  I know it is the centre of almost everything, but almost everything could move.  It would appear that there are nothing like enough offices, as the several cafes I visited were full of folk talking on mobile phones and at work on lap-tops.  Then it occurred to me that almost every third person was busy servicing people like me who  who visited London for some reason or another, so at street level nothing but hotels cafes and shops.  It is these 'service' jobs that re poorly paid. I suspect that the influx of boat dwellers  is less about affordable housing - and more about a lifestyle choice - London is a festival city. Those who are making the move down the Grand Union, always seem, when you talk to them,  to be the same sort - white, educated to degree level, but not found a job, happy to accept zero hours contract, first boat, seems like an adventure .........  I call it the Dick Whittington syndrome.  

 

2,000 more homes available  would make no difference to the real housing crisis in the capital.    It is a disgrace that this market economy means that  the north-east can provide a really decent, reasonably-priced home, - but no living, whereas the south east appears to be able to offer a living (even if you are only making coffee at £3.00 per plastic mug)  but no home.

 

Llangollen it would be hard for those working on maintaining the London Underground to do it elsewhere... ?

[magictime]

5 hours ago, Dave_P said:

The cruising range suggested by the IWA is 100 miles.  I work in Oldbury, West Midlands.  To exceed the minimum range, I would need to go as far as Macclesfield in the North, Northhampton in the East, Sharpness in the South and Llangollen in the West.  This effectively rules out any chance of commuting to a specific place of work, which, I suspect, is the whole point.  I'd also wager that the majority of IWA members are retired.

 

When I'm away from my mooring for a length of time, my cruising range is around 50 miles, Worcester, Stratford, Tamworth, Stafford, Gnosall etc.

 

This keeps my commuting time to around 1 hour, which is reasonable for me.

Not being funny Dave, but is it not overstating things a bit to suggest the IWA proposal would 'rule out' commuting? It'd only be an annual requirement after all - you could stay within an hour of work 50 weeks of the year and still hit the target by doing a holiday cruise or two a bit further afield. This is pretty much what we've done in the past - 90% of the time the boat's stayed in West/North Yorkshire, but once or twice a year we've headed off to do the Four Counties or something.