London Boaters - Government Review

[Guest]

Just now, Mike the Boilerman said:

A cruising range of 20 miles strikes me as reasonable in London. I doubt many London liveaboard boats without a home mooring achieve anything approaching this. 

My experience suggests otherwise. I assumed the same but having spoken to vast numbers of boaters in London while I've been cruising around, certainly they have been doing their miles. Anecdotal evidence of course but that's all you and I have

[Dave_P]

Just now, WotEver said:

No you weren’t. You were referring to someone who wants to avoid paying for a mooring and thereby declaring himself to be a continuous cruiser when in fact he wishes to remain in one particular area and not cruise at all. 

Your self-made-up definition of continuous cruisers isn't really helpful in this discussion and doesn't match with CRTs either, thankfully.

[WotEver]

6 minutes ago, Dave_P said:

Your self-made-up definition of continuous cruisers isn't really helpful in this discussion and doesn't match with CRTs either, thankfully.

I think you need to brush up on your history and understand the origin of the ‘continuous cruiser’ license. It ended up being poorly written and thereby permitting bridge hoppers, causing CaRT to introduce the unofficial 20 mile ‘rule’ which prevented the worst of the piss-takers from standing still. Whether they go back to parliament and ask for the legislation to be re-drafted at some point in the future is unlikely but not impossible. 

[nicknorman]

6 minutes ago, WotEver said:

I think you need to brush up on your history and understand the origin of the ‘continuous cruiser’ license. It ended up being poorly written and thereby permitting bridge hoppers, causing CaRT to introduce the unofficial 20 mile ‘rule’ which prevented the worst of the piss-takers from standing still. Whether they go back to parliament and ask for the legislation to be re-drafted at some point in the future is unlikely but not impossible. 

It becomes more likely as the situation in London becomes more congested with more noisy engines being run stationary and more smokey coal and wood stoves.

[Dave_P]

6 minutes ago, WotEver said:

I think you need to brush up on your history and understand the origin of the ‘continuous cruiser’ license. It ended up being poorly written and thereby permitting bridge hoppers, causing CaRT to introduce the unofficial 20 mile ‘rule’ which prevented the worst of the piss-takers from standing still. Whether they go back to parliament and ask for the legislation to be re-drafted at some point in the future is unlikely but not impossible. 

I'm well aware that BW's guidance for continuous cruisers used to be substantially different to the guidance given now.  However, that only goes to show that there is no single definition of a continuous cruiser, despite what some members would wish.  

 

For clarity, my original post was designed to speculate on the reasons for the 100 mile range suggested by IWA - that is, to prevent liveaboards who work in a single site from avoiding having a home mooring.  I wasn't passing judgement on that other than to imply that members tend to look after their own interests (in this case, relatively well off retirees).

[WotEver]

Just now, nicknorman said:

It becomes more likely as the situation in London becomes more congested with more noisy engines being run stationary and more smokey coal and wood stoves.

Yes indeed. And cries of “But I can’t afford a mooring in London” are pretty much irrelevant. I can’t afford a Ferrari, so I don’t drive one. 

[Dave_P]

2 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

It becomes more likely as the situation in London becomes more congested with more noisy engines being run stationary and more smokey coal and wood stoves.

The problem for CRT is that any re-drafting was needed about 15 years ago.  As each year passes, the situation becomes more entrenched.

[WotEver]

2 minutes ago, Dave_P said:

there is no single definition of a continuous cruiser

No, as I wrote, the legislation was very poorly drafted. 

[Guest]

Just now, WotEver said:

Yes indeed. And cries of “But I can’t afford a mooring in London” are pretty much irrelevant. I can’t afford a Ferrari, so I don’t drive one. 

But I can afford a boat. And I can comply with the CRT's guidance. So a home mooring is pretty much irrelevant, being as I only have to comply with the CRT and not anyone else.

[Dave_P]

Just now, WotEver said:

Yes indeed. And cries of “But I can’t afford a mooring in London” are pretty much irrelevant. I can’t afford a Ferrari, so I don’t drive one. 

How about "I can't afford to live in London"?  You can make a comparison with that and not owning a Ferrari, but, as far as I'm aware, no breakdown of social and community cohesion ever occurred due to a lack of Ferraris.

[WotEver]

Just now, welly said:

But I can afford a boat. And I can comply with the CRT's guidance. So a home mooring is pretty much irrelevant, being as I only have to comply with the CRT and not anyone else.

Yes, while CaRT’s guidance remains ‘20 miles’. That could change however, but probably not easily without re-worded legislation. 

[Dave_P]

Just now, welly said:

But I can afford a boat. And I can comply with the CRT's guidance. So a home mooring is pretty much irrelevant, being as I only have to comply with the CRT and not anyone else.

Until the goal-posts are moved.

[WotEver]

1 minute ago, Dave_P said:

How about "I can't afford to live in London"?  You can make a comparison with that and not owning a Ferrari, but, as far as I'm aware, no breakdown of social and community cohesion ever occurred due to a lack of Ferraris.

I can’t afford to live in London. So I don’t. I used to, I was born and bred there, but I got out. 

[Dave_P]

I have a home mooring but I am seriously considering going back to continuous cruising in the near future.  The change that a reworded Waterways Act could allow IWAs suggestion to come to fruition is one thing which really puts me off the idea.

3 minutes ago, WotEver said:

I can’t afford to live in London. So I don’t. I used to, I was born and bred there, but I got out. 

And if everyone who doesn't earn 6 figures followed suit?  How would that benefit you?

 

We should all be grateful to those people who struggle on existing inside the M25.  We need them!

 

 

Incidentally - I was born and bred in Woolwich, how about you?

Edited June 12, 2018 by Dave_P

[WotEver]

2 minutes ago, Dave_P said:

And if everyone who doesn't earn 6 figures followed suit?  How would that benefit you?

It would benefit the country hugely. There is an absurd and unjustifiable bias towards London at present. It’s unsustainable. 

3 minutes ago, Dave_P said:

We should all be grateful to those people who struggle on existing inside the M25.  We need them!

What rubbish. They’d live happier and more productive lives if they got out from there and  opened their eyes to the wider country.

[Dave123]

Except there aren't the same amount of job opportunities elsewhere

[Dave_P]

2 minutes ago, WotEver said:

It would benefit the country hugely. There is an absurd and unjustifiable bias towards London at present. It’s unsustainable. 

What rubbish. They’d live happier and more productive lives if they got out from there and  opened their eyes to the wider country.

The individuals would indeed be happier.  The bigger picture is a little different.

[WotEver]

10 minutes ago, Dave123 said:

Except there aren't the same amount of job opportunities elsewhere

There would be if that’s where the people were. Simple supply & demand. Look at Media City in Manchester. The biggest centre for creative arts in the country. And who are the players, some little regional outfits?  No, BBC, ITV etc who finally shrugged off part of their London-centric view of the world and looked to the far north... yes, past Watford. 

[Midnight]

31 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

It becomes more likely as the situation in London becomes more congested with more noisy engines being run stationary and more smokey coal and wood stoves.

I agree with Nick (now where did I hear that before). The proposed extension to the clean air zone will have a big impact on boats. I suspect the group includes the local authorities and housing ministry because they can't simply remove all the live-aboard boaters from London waterways. They will have to consult stakeholders at a later stage and will probably come up with affordable housing/mooring alternatives. The legislation will have to be changed. At least that will sort out the freeloaders who don't want to pay anything at all. Unfortunately I suspect that will cause problems for genuine continuous cruisers in places where there's less of a problem.

[WotEver]

32 minutes ago, Dave_P said:

Incidentally - I was born and bred in Woolwich, how about you?

Just noticed this edit...

 

Born in Wimbledon and lived there till early teens, then Kingston, then down to Crawley.

 

Worked mostly around the West End. Did a spot of dispatch riding and also sold HiFi in Tottenham Court Road. 

 

Best thing I ever did though was move out. 

[Dave_P]

2 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Just noticed this edit...

 

Born in Wimbledon and lived there till early teens, then Kingston, then down to Crawley.

 

Worked mostly around the West End. Did a spot of dispatch riding and also sold HiFi in Tottenham Court Road. 

 

Best thing I ever did though was move out. 

Ooh!  Get you, Mr Posh!

[mrsmelly]

9 minutes ago, WotEver said:

There would be if that’s where the people were. Simple supply & demand. Look at Media City in Manchester. The biggest centre for creative arts in the country. And who are the players, some little regional outfits?  No, BBC, ITV etc who finally shrugged off part of their London-centric view of the world and looked to the far north... yes, past Watford. 

The problem is that when the recent ( 94 ) legislation was implemented there were not many genuine liveaboard boaters and those of us that were then living aboard had always understood we had to move around or have a mooring and we WANTED to live on boats it was a lifestyle choice. Unfortunately today the newby boaters ( not all ) seem to think they have a right to live how and where they want and expect the ccing rules to soften because they have moved on a boat and have no genuine intention to cruise. Last week on the K and A reinforced this view with me as basicaly its a linear dumping ground. You are very correct in that all this nonsense about living in London is simply that ( nonsense ) jobs are available in areas that would enable most of these people a better lifestyle with more expendable income even when paying rent as its much more affordable in many places. Shock horror people actualy go to work in places other than London. The great problem for people like myself who have always either CONTINUOUSLY cruised or paid for a mooring for now near on thirty years is something will eventualy change and it will be buggered up for everybody by the pee takers who wont give a damn.

[RLWP]

1 hour ago, welly said:

My experience suggests otherwise. I assumed the same but having spoken to vast numbers of boaters in London while I've been cruising around, certainly they have been doing their miles.

Well, kilometres anyway. That seems to be how the Lee navigation works, two weeks in a 1 kilometre stretch then move on to another one (no you can't keep swapping between two adjacent kilometres)

[Guest]

48 minutes ago, WotEver said:

It would benefit the country hugely. There is an absurd and unjustifiable bias towards London at present. It’s unsustainable. 

What rubbish. They’d live happier and more productive lives if they got out from there and  opened their eyes to the wider country.

Your first sentence is certainly true. Your second, less so. People have established familes, friendships and social circles in London (and elsewhere, obviously). To decide to leave all that behind, whether in London or elsewhere, is a big challenge for many people, particularly those on the lower (or no) income bracket. Relocation is an expensive process which I personally know very well, having done it about 10 times in the last 20 years.

[Dave_P]

32 minutes ago, WotEver said:

There would be if that’s where the people were. Simple supply & demand. Look at Media City in Manchester. The biggest centre for creative arts in the country. And who are the players, some little regional outfits?  No, BBC, ITV etc who finally shrugged off part of their London-centric view of the world and looked to the far north... yes, past Watford. 

Media City still only accounts for a tiny proportion of media jobs, compared to London.