March of the Widebeams

[furnessvale]

13 hours ago, peterboat said:

But Jen could we not ban all narrowboats off canals that were built for proper boats????

That is already the case on many of those canals.  If we are talking about "proper" narrowboats, some fools built most of those canals too short!  ?

Edited March 11, 2020 by furnessvale

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, furnessvale said:

That is already the case on many of those canals.  If we are talking about "proper" narrowboats, some fools built most of those canals too short!  ?

Some of those canals are '100s' of mile long - how long do you want a NB to be ?

[furnessvale]

3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Some of those canals are '100s' of mile long - how long do you want a NB to be ?

Ha ha, pity they put 57' 6" to 62' long locks at frequent intervals along those canals!

 

[Pluto]

7 hours ago, furnessvale said:

Ha ha, pity they put 57' 6" to 62' long locks at frequent intervals along those canals!

 

However, they did not stop them from being more beneficial to the local economy over a long period than narrow canals.

[magpie patrick]

15 hours ago, Pluto said:

However, they did not stop them from being more beneficial to the local economy over a long period than narrow canals.

And I think there has been a long history of "pushing the limits" - 'Ampton boats on the Wolverhampton Level, GU boats that were 71' 6" long and just over 7' wide, oil traffic to Rotherham going a few hundred yards beyond the limit of the improved navigation....

 

I'm sure there are more

[dmr]

28 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

And I think there has been a long history of "pushing the limits" - 'Ampton boats on the Wolverhampton Level, GU boats that were 71' 6" long and just over 7' wide, oil traffic to Rotherham going a few hundred yards beyond the limit of the improved navigation....

 

I'm sure there are more

We met an old bloke in Brum a while ago who said he was an ex boatman and that there were a few 80 foot boats somewhere on a lock free section of the BCN doing some local trade. He sounded like he knew what he was talking about.

 

................Dave

[Pluto]

30 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

And I think there has been a long history of "pushing the limits" - 'Ampton boats on the Wolverhampton Level, GU boats that were 71' 6" long and just over 7' wide, oil traffic to Rotherham going a few hundred yards beyond the limit of the improved navigation....

 

I'm sure there are more

Such as the wide variety of boat sizes used in the Worsley mines, with 13 different types in 1779.

[magpie patrick]

11 minutes ago, dmr said:

We met an old bloke in Brum a while ago who said he was an ex boatman and that there were a few 80 foot boats somewhere on a lock free section of the BCN doing some local trade. He sounded like he knew what he was talking about.

 

................Dave

That would be the Ampton Boats - I read a very good article on them but can't find it - they were approx 80 foot long and 8 foot beam and carried around 40-50 tonnes, apparently their steerers' were a bit of a breed apart. 

[David Mack]

4 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

That would be the Ampton Boats - I read a very good article on them but can't find it - they were approx 80 foot long and 8 foot beam and carried around 40-50 tonnes, apparently their steerers' were a bit of a breed apart. 

 

And I have read somwhere that they varied in size somewhat, having no specific length constraint, and width only being limited by bridges and toll narrows - all well over 7 ft.

[magpie patrick]

5 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

And I have read somwhere that they varied in size somewhat, having no specific length constraint, and width only being limited by bridges and toll narrows - all well over 7 ft.

Yes, I recall that too - I think the turn at Horsely Fields limited the length but can't remember where I read that

 

I also seem to recall (but may have dreamt it) that one was raised in the mid 1970's by a group who didn't know what it was, and then they found it wouldn't fit in the top lock at Wolverhampton

[dmr]

3 hours ago, magpie patrick said:

That would be the Ampton Boats - I read a very good article on them but can't find it - they were approx 80 foot long and 8 foot beam and carried around 40-50 tonnes, apparently their steerers' were a bit of a breed apart. 

Those toll islands on the new mainline are seriously tight, 8 foot would have been a real challenge.

 

...............Dave

[magpie patrick]

Just now, dmr said:

Those toll islands on the new mainline are seriously tight, 8 foot would have been a real challenge.

 

...............Dave

The Ampton boats were on the Wolverhamton level so they never went through the toll islands - I don't think there are any on the Old Main Line or the route between Tipton and Wolverhampton. That said I think they mainly worked the Cannock to Wolverhampton route so they didn't usually go as far as Tipton

 

 

[David Mack]

23 hours ago, dmr said:

Those toll islands on the new mainline are seriously tight, 8 foot would have been a real challenge.

 

...............Dave

Thats why I said "toll narrows".

There is one near Horseley Fields junction on the W&E, and one on the mainline between Tipton and Wolverhampton (but I can't remember exactly where).

 

On 12/03/2020 at 12:06, magpie patrick said:

 

I also seem to recall (but may have dreamt it) that one was raised in the mid 1970's by a group who didn't know what it was, and then they found it wouldn't fit in the top lock at Wolverhampton

 

I heard that story too.

Edited March 13, 2020 by David Mack

[pearley]

On 12/03/2020 at 14:58, magpie patrick said:

The Ampton boats were on the Wolverhamton level so they never went through the toll islands - I don't think there are any on the Old Main Line or the route between Tipton and Wolverhampton. That said I think they mainly worked the Cannock to Wolverhampton route so they didn't usually go as far as Tipton

 

 

There were two Toll Stops between Tipton and Wolverhampton at Rough Hills and Anchor Bridge. There also used to be Bloomfield Stop between Factory Junction and Coseley Tunnel but removed a long time ago.

 

The toll narrows on the W & E are noticeably wider than those on the Main Line.

 

Edited to say that a quick search throws up this:

https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1077148

which states that it could accommodate 'Hampton Boats so they could travel to Tipton.

Edited March 13, 2020 by pearley

[Ray T]

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

Thats why I said "toll narrows".

There is one near Horseley Fields junction on the W&E, and one on the mainline between Tipton and Wolverhampton (but I can't remember exactly where).

 

 

I heard that story too.

BCN Toll Houses

[pearley]

For years the octagonal base of that third one was visible as you passed through the bridge hole but was covered over by the house owner a few years ago. The hose though still bearts its BCN number. Or did.

[dmr]

3 hours ago, David Mack said:

Thats why I said "toll narrows".

There is one near Horseley Fields junction on the W&E, and one on the mainline between Tipton and Wolverhampton (but I can't remember exactly where).

 

 

 

Its somewhere near a railway bridge because you can see it from the train. ?

 

Taking the train from up North down to Brum, or even Bristol, is great for canal spotting.

 

................Dave

[john6767]

21 minutes ago, dmr said:

Its somewhere near a railway bridge because you can see it from the train. ?

 

Taking the train from up North down to Brum, or even Bristol, is great for canal spotting.

 

................Dave

The narrows at Horseley Fields junction are right by the Wolverhampton to Birmingham railway, we started the BCN Challenge there last year.

 

 

[Captain Pegg]

3 hours ago, pearley said:

There were two Toll Stops between Tipton and Wolverhampton at Rough Hills and Anchor Bridge. There also used to be Bloomfield Stop between Factory Junction and Coseley Tunnel but removed a long time ago.

 

The toll narrows on the W & E are noticeably wider than those on the Main Line.

 

Edited to say that a quick search throws up this:

https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1077148

which states that it could accommodate 'Hampton Boats so they could travel to Tipton.

 

4 hours ago, David Mack said:

Thats why I said "toll narrows".

There is one near Horseley Fields junction on the W&E, and one on the mainline between Tipton and Wolverhampton (but I can't remember exactly where).

 

 

 

36 minutes ago, dmr said:

Its somewhere near a railway bridge because you can see it from the train. ?

 

Taking the train from up North down to Brum, or even Bristol, is great for canal spotting.

 

................Dave

 

 

The one that David can’t remember the location of is likely to be Rough Hills which is a mile or maybe more from Wolverhampton and is coincident with a railway bridge over the canal. The toll narrows is on the north/east side of the railway line.

 

Although Anchor Bridge is visible from the railway I don’t think you can easily see the narrows (it’s adjacent to Deepfields Junction). At this point the canal is to the south/west side of the railway.

 

The nearest thing to the ‘Hampton boats that operates today is the Euphrates Packet trip boat in central Birmingham that is 73’ 6” x 8’ yet it still fits through the Worcester Bar narrows.

 

JP

[archie57]

 - and presumably it still fits Edgbaston tunnel, despite CRTs best efforts......

[john6767]

39 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

The nearest thing to the ‘Hampton boats that operates today is the Euphrates Packet trip boat in central Birmingham that is 73’ 6” x 8’ yet it still fits through the Worcester Bar narrows.

 

JP

From observation I think the trip boat is more or less 7ft at the waterline and widens out the the gunnel height (it has no gunnels though), therefore it hangs over the sides of the stop lock at Worcester Bar.

 

I presume the Hampton boats would have been vertical sided?

[David Mack]

4 hours ago, Ray T said:

BCN Toll Houses

 

3 hours ago, pearley said:

For years the octagonal base of that third one was visible as you passed through the bridge hole but was covered over by the house owner a few years ago. The hose though still bearts its BCN number. Or did.

 

The tollhouse in the 3rd picture, the last octagonal tollhouse left on the BCN, was dismantled in the early 1970s and taken to the Black Country Museum to be re-erected. But I'm not sure it ever was

[Captain Pegg]

2 hours ago, john6767 said:

From observation I think the trip boat is more or less 7ft at the waterline and widens out the the gunnel height (it has no gunnels though), therefore it hangs over the sides of the stop lock at Worcester Bar.

 

I presume the Hampton boats would have been vertical sided?

Yes, the trip boat is deliberately shaped to fit the narrows at the waterline. I suspect ‘Hampton boats were vertical sided or at least close to vertical. I believe they were a great mix of sizes so classifying them as a single type of boat is probably misleading.

 

3 hours ago, archie57 said:

 - and presumably it still fits Edgbaston tunnel, despite CRTs best efforts......

I’m sure it does as the clear channel is probably still a good bit wider than 8’. The one time I went on the boat some years ago it went to Selly Oak. Not sure where it ventures to now but I’ve encountered it on the Icknield Port loop more than once.

 

JP

[john6767]

13 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

Yes, the trip boat is deliberately shaped to fit the narrows at the waterline. I suspect ‘Hampton boats were vertical sided or at least close to vertical. I believe they were a great mix of sizes so classifying them as a single type of boat is probably misleading.

 

I’m sure it does as the clear channel is probably still a good bit wider than 8’. The one time I went on the boat some years ago it went to Selly Oak. Not sure where it ventures to now but I’ve encountered it on the Icknield Port loop more than once.

 

JP

Unless it has changed, some of the trips go to the Vale, so through Edgbaston tunnel

[Pluto]

Although not with an 'Ampton boat, this is worth looking at https://www.iarecordings.org/coproductions/sightseen/n02.html