Not got a boat, yet

[cuthound]

Thinsulate is a woven matetisl type insulatoon that performs almost as well thermally as sprayfoam (and is better at sound insulation), and is lightly glued to the steel to prevent condentition,  so easily removed if needed.

I too only find moisture in the boat on the uninsulated metal in the engine hole, (except for the time the deck drains were partially blocked and there was heavy rain).

 

[Bargebuilder]

20 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Ours is rockwool too. The only condensation is on the bare steel in the engine room.

I'm impressed: How did you achieve a 100% perfect vapour barrier?

The tiniest opening or puncture in the plastic sheet is enough to allow moisture laden air to get behind rock wool and for hidden beads of moisture to form on the steel which of course gradually moistens the insulation itself. If the paint job isn't perfect, this can be the cause of corrosion. 

Since such problems are hidden behind cladding on a boat, an inexperienced buyer may be unaware of the issue. It would also be impossible to be confident that the original fitter made a 100% perfect job of the vapour barrier.

All else being equal, I would chose a professionally spray foamed shell over any other method of insulation.

I wouldn't expect owners of polystyrene, Thinsulate or rockwool lined steel boats to agree, but the trend towards spray foaming is undeniable for new-builds. 

[MtB]

30 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

I'm impressed: How did you achieve a 100% perfect vapour barrier?

The tiniest opening or puncture in the plastic sheet is enough to allow moisture laden air to get behind rock wool and for hidden beads of moisture to form on the steel which of course gradually moistens the insulation itself. If the paint job isn't perfect, this can be the cause of corrosion. 

Since such problems are hidden behind cladding on a boat, an inexperienced buyer may be unaware of the issue. It would also be impossible to be confident that the original fitter made a 100% perfect job of the vapour barrier.

All else being equal, I would chose a professionally spray foamed shell over any other method of insulation.

I wouldn't expect owners of polystyrene, Thinsulate or rockwool lined steel boats to agree, but the trend towards spray foaming is undeniable for new-builds. 

 

Well I for one agree with you that the trend is towards spray foaming, and I have a Rockwool boat. 

Builders however, are unlikely to give a stuff about the near impossibility of safely welding a sprayfoamed hull at a later date, a point I note you have choosen to ignore. 

[rusty69]

50 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

'm impressed: How did you achieve a 100% perfect vapour barrier?

 

I didn't. It was rockwool when I bought it. Not sure sprayfoam was that common in  80s boats.

Nevertheless we experience little condensation 

Edited September 5, 2017 by rusty69

[MtB]

1 minute ago, rusty69 said:

I didn't. It was rockwool when I bought it. Not surw sprayfoam was that common on sn 80s boat. 

Nevertheless we experience little condensation 

 

Same here.

[Athy]

1 hour ago, haggis said:

From a fairly quick look, the seats in the lounge area are the most uncomfortable things to sit on for any length of time.  We had a share in a boat with that type of seat for many years and I took down a folding chair to sit on . 

haggis

Horses, courses, strokes, folks. All our boats have had that type of seating (well, Trojan has a bench seat on each side of the saloon) and we have always been quite comfortable on them. That also offer the advantage (useful for a liveaboard, I would think) of capacious storage space beneath them - which is where we keep, for example, our folding "Cropredy chairs" which generally come out only for the festival each year.

[Bargebuilder]

48 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Well I for one agree with you that the trend is towards spray foaming, and I have a Rockwool boat. 

Builders however, are unlikely to give a stuff about the near impossibility of safely welding a sprayfoamed hull at a later date, a point I note you have choosen to ignore. 

I would hope that a new build hull would be epoxy coated: Mine has nearly 1mm of glass flake epoxy on the outside and after 8 years the finish is totally intact. At that rate I fully expect the epoxy to last for 15 years and what is more, it can be over coated with minimal preparation should it thin in places. A properly maintained epoxy coated hull will outlive most of us, so overplating may become less common in future years. 

I suspect that the spray foaming of base plates is fairly rare anyway. The addition of a vapour barrier and a layer of Thinsulate or similar to the underside of the plywood cabin sole would be a much better idea and would allow for subsequent welding if necessary.

The argument for having ones bilge free of insulation is one that is often made, so that moisture from plumbing leaks or condensation is easy to mop up and you don't end up with soggy insulation materials.

 

[Naughty Cal]

2 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

I would hope that a new build hull would be epoxy coated: Mine has nearly 1mm of glass flake epoxy on the outside and after 8 years the finish is totally intact. At that rate I fully expect the epoxy to last for 15 years and what is more, it can be over coated with minimal preparation should it thin in places. A properly maintained epoxy coated hull will outlive most of us, so overplating may become less common in future years. 

I suspect that the spray foaming of base plates is fairly rare anyway. The addition of a vapour barrier and a layer of Thinsulate or similar to the underside of the plywood cabin sole would be a much better idea and would allow for subsequent welding if necessary.

The argument for having ones bilge free of insulation is one that is often made, so that moisture from plumbing leaks or condensation is easy to mop up and you don't end up with soggy insulation materials.

 

It will be if you pay extra for it.

[Bargebuilder]

Even if I were to buy a second hand steel boat, coating the hull in glass flake epoxy would be right at the top of my priority jobs list. To spend perhaps £100k on a new build and not to bother would, in my opinion, be a false economy. 

[haggis]

13 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

Even if I were to buy a second hand steel boat, coating the hull in glass flake epoxy would be right at the top of my priority jobs list. To spend perhaps £100k on a new build and not to bother would, in my opinion, be a false economy. 

I must admit to never having heard of a steel narrow boat being coated in glass flake epoxy.  How does it stand up to contact with lock walls, armco edging etc? Or is it only suitable for static boats?

Haggis

[Bargebuilder]

10 minutes ago, haggis said:

I must admit to never having heard of a steel narrow boat being coated in glass flake epoxy.  How does it stand up to contact with lock walls, armco edging etc? Or is it only suitable for static boats?

You can chip off any coating if you hit it hard enough, but the coating is incredibly tough and resistant to abrasion, infinitely more so that blacking. If it is applied to grit blasted steel it sticks very well, so any damage will be local to the point of collision. Any localised damage can be readily touched in with minimal preparation.

The tiny platelets of glass align themselves to the face of the steel making a finish that is much harder than ordinary epoxy.

Have a look at the Chemco international website if you are interested, although other makes are available.

It was developed for the off shore oil industry and is used on power station water intakes, storage tanks and even the Forth Bridge.

I asked a couple of narrowboat yards to quote and they weren't interested because it wasn't what they use. The sector might be described as a little backward and reluctant to embrace proven new products.

Perhaps applying such a material is not in their interest.

I had my steel slurry blasted, then used a surface tolerant glass flake primer followed by the product itself. I applied it in 7 coats with a roller, but if you have access to an airless sprayer then it would be much quicker.

 

 

[Lily Rose]

5 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

My boat has rockwool and I never get a drop of condensation in the bilges.

Ditto, I think.

We spend 4 or 5 consecutive nights on if every month during winter, often with the marina iced over, and I´ve yet to find any water under the inspection hatch I put in at the rear of the bedroom. I suppose there could be some somewhere but not enough to make it to the back of the boat.

[Athy]

A little less condensation and a little more action, as someone once said - didn't they?

[Lily Rose]

3 hours ago, Athy said:

Horses, courses, strokes, folks. All our boats have had that type of seating (well, Trojan has a bench seat on each side of the saloon) and we have always been quite comfortable on them. That also offer the advantage (useful for a liveaboard, I would think) of capacious storage space beneath them - which is where we keep, for example, our folding "Cropredy chairs" which generally come out only for the festival each year.

We  have bench seats like that and really like them for two people as you can prop up cushions and really stretch out to get comfortable. They can double up as two single beds or even a king size bed and are great for storage. All the coal and other stove paraphernalia goes under one, all the spare bedding and other stuff under the other.

If we had a holding tank instead of  cassettes, a stainless steel water tank instead of integral and armchairs or sofa instead of bench seats I doubt we would have bought this boat. Not because we necessarily prefer these options, or were looking for them, but because we now realise that having them gives us masses of storage (for a 45' boat) under the bed, under the well deck and under the bench seats. The other boats we looked at were hopeless for storage compared to Lily Rose.

[Athy]

3 minutes ago, Lily Rose said:

We  have bench seats like that and really like them for two people as you can prop up cushions and really stretch out to get comfortable. They can double up as two single beds or even a king size bed and are great for storage. All the coal and other stove paraphernalia goes under one, all the spare bedding and other stuff under the other.

If we had a holding tank instead of  cassettes, a stainless steel water tank instead of integral and armchairs or sofa instead of bench seats I doubt we would have bought this boat. Not because we necessarily prefer these options, or were looking for them, but because we now realise that having them gives us masses of storage (for a 45' boat) under the bed, under the well deck and under the bench seats. The other boats we looked at were hopeless for storage compared to Lily Rose.

I hear what you're saying, as our boat is also a 45-footer and swallows up amazing amounts of "stuff" - although we do have an integral water tank (how does a stainless steel one take up less space?) We also have that other storage secret weapon, an engine room.

[Lily Rose]

12 minutes ago, Athy said:

 (how does a stainless steel one take up less space?) 

I don't think it would - we haven't got a ss tank and I assume that if we had it would be under the well deck thus using up at least some of the cavernous storage area we have under there.

[Athy]

23 minutes ago, Lily Rose said:

I don't think it would - we haven't got a ss tank and I assume that if we had it would be under the well deck thus using up at least some of the cavernous storage area we have under there.

Sorry, I read your comments bum-about-face and thought you'd said that you HAD a s/s tank.

[thebfg]

On 22/05/2017 at 09:18, Neil2 said:

 

These days when you see a rusty three year old transit you know it's because they make the paint just thick enough to last until the fleet sends it to auction, not because Ford use rubbish steel.

It doesn't matter much what steel a 30 year old boat hull is made from, what does matter is how well the owner has looked after it. 

I know I am late to this party. I worked at the transit factory in Southampton when I was younger.

I worked for DuPont.

Now while the paint was probably not thick, thick it was mostly OK the main problem was if there was blemishes in the paint work, overspray or drips for example.

 

The way they dealt with it was a quick sand and respray by hand. This often took it down to bare metal. The paint was just sprayed back on very thinly. Ripe for rusting quite early. However there was not time on the line to do anything different., of course not sanding down to bare metal would of helped.

Of topic comment, finished.

 

lady g, how is the boat hunting?

 

 

[LadyG]

43 minutes ago, thebfg said:

I know I am late to this party. I worked at the transit factory in Southampton when I was younger.

I worked for DuPont.

Now while the paint was probably not thick, thick it was mostly OK the main problem was if there was blemishes in the paint work, overspray or drips for example.

 

The way they dealt with it was a quick sand and respray by hand. This often took it down to bare metal. The paint was just sprayed back on very thinly. Ripe for rusting quite early. However there was not time on the line to do anything different., of course not sanding down to bare metal would of helped.

Of topic comment, finished.

 

lady g, how is the boat hunting?

 

 

Ty for asking, I had a bit of a setback selling my flat, [in fact a nightmare], and got it sorted and back on the market, I have been twiddling my toes for five weeks, and have had ONE viewer, in spite of having had a major upgrade, I have missed a few nice boats, but at this moment in time,  I am in limbo,

.... Always look on the bright side of life,

even though the dark clouds of despair drop hailstones the size of golfballs on your financial umbrella. 

Edited October 19, 2017 by LadyG

[Neil2]

3 hours ago, thebfg said:

I know I am late to this party. I worked at the transit factory in Southampton when I was younger.

I worked for DuPont.

Now while the paint was probably not thick, thick it was mostly OK the main problem was if there was blemishes in the paint work, overspray or drips for example.

 

The way they dealt with it was a quick sand and respray by hand. This often took it down to bare metal. The paint was just sprayed back on very thinly. Ripe for rusting quite early. However there was not time on the line to do anything different., of course not sanding down to bare metal would of helped.

Of topic comment, finished.

 

lady g, how is the boat hunting?

 

 

Interesting, though not surprising - I think I got one of those vans!   

[LadyG]

OK,

I'm EIGHT MONTHS down the yellow brick road, and need a few opinions [ty Mike, just Keep Calm].

I've sorted out most of my needs and wants, but one thing I am just not 100% sure of,  namely, fitted bench seating v open saloon, I'm assuming it's usually going to be a fairly major job to switch over from bench seating to open saloon.

In fact I have seen one which has a nice settee, probably has the same flooring  all over, and I could live with that, but it has  no dining area.

Others require dismantling the bench,, taking it to the tip, etc etc. Of course some boats are so designed that both seating arrangements can be accomodated.

Do all liveaboards opt for open saloon and flexible seating?

PS no signs of the housing market heating up, must be the weather.

Edited January 18, 2018 by LadyG

[mrsmelly]

2 minutes ago, LadyG said:

OK,

I'm EIGHT MONTHS down the yellow brick road, and need a few opinions [ty Mike, just Keep Calm].

I've sorted out most of my needs and wants, but one thing I am just not 100% sure of,  namely fitted bench seating v open saloon, I'm assuming it's usually going to be a fairly major job to switch over from bench seating to open saloon.

In fact I have seen one which has a nice settee, probably has the same flooring  all over, and I could live with that, but it has  no dining area.

Others require dismantling the bench,, taking it to the tip, etc etc. Of course some boats are so designed that both seating arrangements can be accomodated.

Do all liveaboards opt for open saloon and flexible seating?

Fixed seating is a thing of the Devil like crossbeds are. Some form of dinette can be handy but loose furniture in the saloon  is the way to go.

[LadyG]

Just now, mrsmelly said:

Fixed seating is a thing of the Devil like crossbeds are. Some form of dinette can be handy but loose furniture in the saloon  is the way to go.

ty, that's what I thought

[Athy]

1 minute ago, LadyG said:

OK,

 

I've sorted out most of my needs and wants, but one thing I am just not 100% sure of,  namely fitted bench seating v open saloon, I'm assuming it's usually going to be a fairly major job to switch over from bench seating to open saloon.

In fact I have seen one which has a nice settee, probably has the same flooring  all over, and I could live with that, but it has  no dining area.

Others require dismantling the bench,, taking it to the tip, etc etc. Of course some boats are so designed that both seating arrangements can be accomodated.

Do all liveaboards opt for open saloon and flexible seating?

We are not liveaboards, but a vote here for bench seating. We find ours (two well-upholstered longitudinal seats about 4 feet or so long) very comfortable in the evenings, and of course they have oodles of storage space beneath the seats.

[ditchcrawler]

1 minute ago, mrsmelly said:

Fixed seating is a thing of the Devil like crossbeds are. Some form of dinette can be handy but loose furniture in the saloon  is the way to go.

Well I half agree but I do like my Cross Bed, the lounge has a hinged table on one wall so flat when not in use and free standing recliner chairs.