Advice needed (not a narrow boat)

[Momac]

The first think to check regarding the fuel issue is the fuel filter (possibly more than one filter).

As the boat is  new to you I would suggest changing the fuel filter elements regardless.

Its possible to get diesel bug which is bacterial growth developing in small amounts of water in the fuel.  The diesel should be very clear.   The bug can clog the fuel system including filters . If this is an issue its possible to obtain fuel additives to kill the bug . Also possible issue is excessive water in the fuel which may be due to a fuel filler cap that does not seal out the rain.

 

[Naughty Cal]

15 hours ago, Calranthe said:

Visit went well, engine still not working but engineer is coming tonight to deal with it hopefully, gas cooker works fine, bottle is probably full, found the water tanks, it has 2 small ones either side of the fuel tank, fuel tank is now full, it has 40-50L we also have a 10L can with 5L left in, measured the transom, put a lot of stuff for the journey on the boat, now have the blue stuff as well as the rinse stuff, a whistling kettle, hammers, tools, spikes, rope, 6 2 litre bottles of water + 2 5L bottles of water.

Used some adult diapers to soak up the oil/water in the bilge, good news is the hull from the inside looks in really good condition, Battery bank look really good and the hull around them has been dry for a very long time.

Cool bag + ice blocks arrived, Tesco shop for food ordered for Thursday night.

Collins waterways books 4 and 3 which cover the the areas we will explore bought.

Canal and river rescue Gold plan in place.

Insurance and River license documentation

Berth ready for us in Aston (v1)

All electrical items charging via home solar panel will at 100% before we go (tablet, mifi 4g, phone, 2 solar lanterns, 2 torches, 3 battery packs, Alexa Echo Dot (amazon music unlimited, we is going to have some tunes) 24w solar panel 3 battery packs, Solar Radio/gyro/light USB hand warming device, tablet has premium prime subscription so many many movies and series available, also crunchy roll for anime   Yes I am over doing it for a 3 day cruise but this allows me to test all of the stuff and see what works best and stuff that can go back home.

Sea Magnet arrived and is now on the boat, 60kg version.

Oil is arriving tomorrow.

 

Have you checked that the fuel is switched on and that the battery isolators are switched on?

[Calranthe]

32 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

Have you checked that the fuel is switched on and that the battery isolators are switched on?

I may be new to all this but not that new hehe.

1)Day one test all went fine came back to dock after about 30 minutes run, we then tested all the electrics and fuses, broker then left us on our own.

Before leaving we turned off the battery isolation switches (2 of them) but did not turn off fuel.

2)Second visit

Decided to start up the boat so I could practice that very thing,switched isolation to on put the throttle the way it was supposed to be, preheated yellow light came on all looked good gave it 10-20 seconds then started engine, (it started) seemed a little rough set throttle to neutral checked gauges all seemed fine

1 minute later engine died, repeated tries at restart failed.

Checked all the switches, tried a restart, (remember even though it has been sitting, it had (confirmed yesterday) new filters, new oil, new pipes, new cables, new batteries, new air filter) with it being an electric fuel pump could not locate a way to manually feed fuel in.

Wondered if I had done some thing wrong as a new person

Walked over to the brokers, he came out and tried to start the engine he couldn't (weirdly this made me feel so much better knowing that if with his experience he couldn't start it then I am good) he fetched his can of easy start (I bought one myself now as well) still no joy.

He called in the owner of the boat who arrived and tried to start it, after much discussion all of us think it is something to do with the fuel system and it sitting over winter but because it isn't a manual fuel system we decided on the idea of "lets get an engineer out" owner paying for it (even though sale has gone through) another positive mark for Sawley Marina.

Engineer hopefully worked on it last night and we will know more today I will ring in a little while.

 

[Naughty Cal]

Please don't use Easy Start on it!

[Calranthe]

1 hour ago, Naughty Cal said:

Please don't use Easy Start on it!

why not ? broker used it.

[rusty69]

13 minutes ago, Calranthe said:

why not ? broker used it.

I once had a motorbike that wouldn't start without the stuff. Its sometimes an indication of a worn engine if it won't start without it. 

 It can also cause damage if not used correctly i have heard. 

 

 

Edited June 8, 2017 by rusty69

[Calranthe]

Oh I would not use it all the time but better to have it on board the boat and not need it 

[rusty69]

1 minute ago, Calranthe said:

Oh I would not use it all the time but better to have it on board the boat and not need it 

Thats good. 

Why did the broker feel the need to use it?  Is it related to your subsequent running difficulties. 

[Naughty Cal]

1 hour ago, Calranthe said:

why not ? broker used it.

Because it is the beginning of the end when you need to start using that .

[Calranthe]

54 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Thats good. 

Why did the broker feel the need to use it?  Is it related to your subsequent running difficulties. 

 

10 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

Because it is the beginning of the end when you need to start using that .

It seemed quite logical to me boat wouldn't start and that was one of the tools in his arsenal to get it working.

 

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, Calranthe said:

why not ? broker used it.

To answer you questions.

Brokers use it because they are not mechanics and the engine is not theirs.

Why not use it? Esaystart contains ether that ignites even more readily than petrol. On a diesel engine  the heat to ignite the fuel comes from compressing air very tightly. The air will be hot enough to ignite ether long before the piston has reached the top of the compression stroke (moving upwards) so if you do not follow the instructions for diesels with great care the ether will ignite with the piston still moving upwards. The inertia in the flywheel is driving the piston up and the burning ether is trying to push the piston down. This leads to a really high pressure in the cylinder that can and does snap piston rings, break the lands on the piston that are the bits of the piston between the rings and in extreme cases bends connecting rods. All of which result in low compression that will not generate enough heat to ignite diesel.

Also the use of Easystart allows worn out engines to start and that leads to further problems. The ether tends to wash the lubricating oil off the cylinder walls so an already worn engine wears even more.

These things lead to the belief that engines et addicted to Easystart. They do not, they may be worn or damaged by its use to make starting without it impossible.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said:

Why not use it? Easystart contains ether that ignites even more readily than petrol. On a diesel engine  the heat to ignite the fuel comes from compressing air very tightly. The air will be hot enough to ignite ether long before the piston has reached the top of the compression stroke (moving upwards) so if you do not follow the instructions for diesels with great care the ether will ignite with the piston still moving upwards. The inertia in the flywheel is driving the piston up and the burning ether is trying to push the piston down. This leads to a really high pressure in the cylinder that can and does snap piston rings, break the lands on the piston that are the bits of the piston between the rings and in extreme cases bends connecting rods. All of which result in low compression that will not generate enough heat to ignite diesel.

Also the use of Easystart allows worn out engines to start and that leads to further problems. The ether tends to wash the lubricating oil off the cylinder walls so an already worn engine wears even more.

These things lead to the belief that engines et addicted to Easystart. They do not, they may be worn or damaged by its use to make starting without it impossible.

This is important enough to be repeated IN BOLD.

It should be learned by every diesel engine owner.

[Calranthe]

Okay I get it will only use easy start in a life or death situation.

Boat is fixed the issue was a bent fuel pipe, just above the fuel tank is a brass pipe that goes through to the engine, now its placement means that if the heavy lid falls on it then it gets bent to the point very little fuel gets through. it probably happened a few times before we took over the boat something we will watch for.

 

[croftie]

Get a new pipe fitted if not already done that follows a different route so it cannot happen again. If you use rubber hose make sure it is the correct spec to comply with BSS

[Peter X]

Excellent news as I'm committed by my advance fare booking for tomorrow morning! It sounds as if we'll be able to get out of Sawley and off up the T&M on schedule. I'd better pack some stuff and get an early night.

[Calranthe]

Adventure!

[Calranthe]

7am just getting ready, will be on my way to the Marina in two hours did not sleep much last night way too excited looking forward to meeting Peter and on this my first real time on a boat.

Will keep you all informed via badly typed in posts via my tablet.

 

[johnmoly]

20 hours ago, Naughty Cal said:

Please don't use Easy Start on it!

Years ago I was an HGV driver and was told not to use easy start even though the garage used to stock it. Being in my twenties I ignored such advice just to get the engine started, well that engine didn't last long although I suspect it was on its way out anyway.  To get other engines started in the cold weather I used to light a page of yesterdays newspaper and hold that by the air filter intake and pressed the starter button - worked every time.

Edited June 9, 2017 by johnmoly

[MHS]

Glad you've solved the fuel starvation problem. You have good weather for the first day of your trip. Hope you enjoy it. 

[Ex Brummie]

6 hours ago, johnmoly said:

Years ago I was an HGV driver and was told not to use easy start even though the garage used to stock it. Being in my twenties I ignored such advice just to get the engine started, well that engine didn't last long although I suspect it was on its way out anyway.  To get other engines started in the cold weather I used to light a page of yesterdays newspaper and hold that by the air filter intake and pressed the starter button - worked every time.

Have you ever seen the start up heater on a Perkins 4.108M?  The first time I started mine up without the deckboards down, The smoke followed by licks of flame from the air filter intake it scared me s*****ss! Very effective though.

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, Ex Brummie said:

Have you ever seen the start up heater on a Perkins 4.108M?  The first time I started mine up without the deckboards down, The smoke followed by licks of flame from the air filter intake it scared me s*****ss! Very effective though.

You have obviously never used a Coffman engine starter.

Interesting to say the least.

[Calranthe]

Trip has sort of erm well issues.

Peter is on the boat tonight incase it is an easy fix but lets start at the beginning.

Love the boat and we had a lot of fun, we went about 6 miles up the TMC  but became concerned when the engine temp was hovering at 100 we were not pushing the engine and it was lacking in power, probably getting 1mph against the flow of the trent before we hit the canal.

kept going but was getting blue smoke and white smoke.

called out Canal and river rescue the engine was basically out of oil and a small amount of debris in the water filter.

easy fixes but then we found out that was only a symptom

leaking oil and fuel from every nut and bolt once it got up to speed

All that stuff in the bilge we thought was condensation and a bit of oil, nope it was diesel and oil no water.

My thought is whoever serviced it did not reseal anything, they think it is about a £300 job to strip the entire fuel system through the engine and reseal it.

At first I  was convinced to carry on towards Aston but as the guy showed me he took a rag and wiped the engine all over ran the engine for a couple of minutes and it was all wet again with leaking diesel.

Tried calling different marina's towards our goal but all were busy till July.

So called sawley took it back (got a lot of practice with locks)

 Will talk to Sawley in the morning and see what can be done.

Any thoughts Tony.

 

BTW Peter is a Rock he is awesome I came home to check on Paola but he wanted to stay with boat in case they can fix it tomorrow. 

Edited June 9, 2017 by Calranthe

[Starcoaster]

Blimey that is absolutely shit... You have been horrendously unlucky with all of this so far.

Apologies if I have missed this but you mention the prior service and the potential that nothing got tightened, do you know who/when this was, or how to contact them?

[Tony Brooks]

No, not really apart from I can not believe it is leaking oil and fuel from EVERY NUT & BOLT. I ma sure its leaking fuel but it is likely to be from specific places. If there is something wrong with injector pipe flares/olives or certain parts of the injector pump then fuel cab spray out ans cover a larger area but you should be able to locate the leaks.

To be much help on this I would need to be on the boat to try to identify the leaks.

Sorry and very bad luck as you seemed to have done everything you should. Me thinks the vendor and broker were less than honest about this boat.

[MtB]

I agree with Tony.

And before someone else says it, I doubt this fuel leak would even have been noticed during a survey. In fact I'm inclined to think given the size of the leak you describe I suspect it was not there when you first looked at the boat and ran the engine. 

I'm inclined to suspect some sort of connection with the damaged fuel pipe you found that cause the initial breakdown. How well has it been repaired? Once the surface of an engine has 'wetted' with diesel a single leak can be fiendishly difficult to find as the diesel spreads out over the surfaces.

My gut feeling is you still have one single diesel leak that will actually be quite straightforward to fix once you or a competent technician finds it.