Reasons For not Closing Lock Gates On The Southern GU

[MoominPapa]

It just occurred to me that side-pond paddles, unlike top or bottom paddles, have to cope with water heads in both directions. Normal paddles use the head of water across the paddle to help seal the "door" into the frame - that's why bottom paddles, for instance, are on the inside of the lock gate. Does anyone know how the design of side-pond paddles differs to allow them to seal both when the level in the pond is higher than in the lock, and when it is lower?

 

 

MP.

 

[Ray T]

21 minutes ago, MoominPapa said:

It just occurred to me that side-pond paddles, unlike top or bottom paddles, have to cope with water heads in both directions. Normal paddles use the head of water across the paddle to help seal the "door" into the frame - that's why bottom paddles, for instance, are on the inside of the lock gate. Does anyone know how the design of side-pond paddles differs to allow them to seal both when the level in the pond is higher than in the lock, and when it is lower?

 

 

MP.

 

Side pond / pound paddles on the Knowle flight of the GU. They appear to be in a groove within their mounting giving support to both sides of the paddle.

 

Edited May 2, 2017 by Ray T

[matty40s]

24 minutes ago, Theo said:

 

No.  It makes lock cycling much slower because you make a level twice for each lock passage and it is the last few inches that take a long time.

 

Get a stopwatch out next time you do Atherstone lock 6, it is faster than all the other 10 locks, due to the side pond fill, or empty. 

You just have to make sure you close it approximately half way up. The flight was even quicker when they had top gate paddles.

 

You also need to explain to the worlds media (well, the Daily Mail) how you managed to appear at Little Venice Cavalcade after leaving Stowe Hill on Monday morning

[Ray T]

34 minutes ago, matty40s said:

Get a stopwatch out next time you do Atherstone lock 6, it is faster than all the other 10 locks, due to the side pond fill, or empty. 

You just have to make sure you close it approximately half way up. The flight was even quicker when they had top gate paddles.

 

You also need to explain to the worlds media (well, the Daily Mail) how you managed to appear at Little Venice Cavalcade after leaving Stowe Hill on Monday morning

Try using an "Atherstone Wedge." 

[Sir Nibble]

12 hours ago, NB Lola said:

Boaters handbook pages 19 and 21 asks you to close gates unless a boat is approaching

 

No law just a polite request.

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/library/141.pdf

A polite request can be politely declined. Rather than take the p out of the answer perhaps one might say, who the hell do you think you are to ask the question? No one has a right to remonstrate with anyone for using a lock in a manner that is safe and within the bylaws. Suppose people start complaining about you closing gates when they feel it is inconvenient? They have as much authority to impose their will as you do.

[Neil2]

The only time we've used side ponds on a lock flight is on the Droitwich and I'm pretty sure those locks take longer to get through as a result.  I too am struggling to see how side ponds make lock operation faster.  

[Tacet]

14 hours ago, Mal in Somerset said:

 

Whilst sorting out the Stoke Bruerne flight the question I was asked most was have you phoned CaRT. My response was my phone wasn't charged although the real answer was that by the time they arrive I'll have got it back to normal again anyway. The only thing I could have done with was one of those "Do not disturb" tags to hang over an open paddle as having gone up to the top to let the water down a boater coming down thought someone was playing "silly buggers" and shut everything off again meaning another trip to the top!

I'm not sure - but I think CRT bring the water required in the van.

Wel, that's what some people seem to think when I say there is only one way to fill this empty pound - regardless of who is doing it.

[Tacet]

11 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

The only time we've used side ponds on a lock flight is on the Droitwich and I'm pretty sure those locks take longer to get through as a result.  I too am struggling to see how side ponds make lock operation faster.  

They can make operations faster - but it depends on just how you use them and at the expense of a reduction in water saving.

When they were more common an ascending (say) boater would close the bottom gates and draw the side pond paddle on the way to the top gate.  The top paddles would then be drawn in the usual manner (all-up as fast as possible) before returning to the side pond.  When the lowering pond and the rising lock were at the same level, the side pond paddle would be dropped.

 

[alan_fincher]

16 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

The only time we've used side ponds on a lock flight is on the Droitwich and I'm pretty sure those locks take longer to get through as a result.  I too am struggling to see how side ponds make lock operation faster.  

Side ponds can speed things up if you run water in or out of the ponds at the same time as using the other paddles on the lock.

This, of course, was not the original intention of side ponds as a water saving device.  For maximum water saving you would not have side pond paddles drawn at the same time as any others, and I'm sure that in nearly every case, lock operation was then slower than if you didn't use the side ponds.

I believe that when canal companies enforced their use boatmen could be fined for doing anything that didn't give maximum water saving.  Boatmen would of course have been unhappy with their proper use, as it was both extra effort, and made things slower.

However now, if you don't bother too much about water saving they can accelerate things a bit.  I'm totally struggling though to see how they would ever halve the time taken to fill or empty a lock, even used as not originally intended.

 

[Sea Dog]

We pass through the Hanbury 3 quite often. Usually, there are excellent volunteers assisting anyway but, even in winter when they're not there, there's very little extra time to be won or lost because of the side ponds. The locks are deep and take a little time, so shaving some seconds off is a small fraction of the overall fill/empty time. You're on a Narrowboat - how essential can those seconds be?!

Before anyone gets bent out of shape about how I know about the timing without using the side ponds: they're sometimes out of action, that's how!

[NB Lola]

3 hours ago, Sir Nibble said:

A polite request can be politely declined. Rather than take the p out of the answer perhaps one might say, who the hell do you think you are to ask the question? No one has a right to remonstrate with anyone for using a lock in a manner that is safe and within the bylaws. Suppose people start complaining about you closing gates when they feel it is inconvenient? They have as much authority to impose their will as you do.

It is not for me to respond on the safety or efficacy of the guidance provided by CRT. You need to remonstrate with them as many users will reflect on/ follow their guidance.

 As a matter of fact, I do close gates after use and find it annoying that gates are left open unless conditions require it or the circumstance prevent closing the gates.  Merely because I find it convenient and I support the guidance.  I find there are a small number (not a lot by any degree) of users do not close gates out of pure ignorance/laziness.  Sadly, I have never had the chance to enquire why as they have gone before I get there.  Interestingly, when I am at a lock, waiting, I have never seen a user leave gates open unless it's because the lock is set in our favour, strange.

[billS]

I think that every time that I have encountered a historic pair  they have left the gates open, whether travelling in front of me in the same direction, or coming towards me.

Edited May 3, 2017 by billS

[Neil2]

57 minutes ago, Tacet said:

They can make operations faster - but it depends on just how you use them and at the expense of a reduction in water saving.

When they were more common an ascending (say) boater would close the bottom gates and draw the side pond paddle on the way to the top gate.  The top paddles would then be drawn in the usual manner (all-up as fast as possible) before returning to the side pond.  When the lowering pond and the rising lock were at the same level, the side pond paddle would be dropped.

 

Ah yes of course with the one lock at Atherston you could operate all the paddles at once as there isn't any water saving.  I was thinking about the three at Hanbury where there are strict instructions to open/close the side pond paddles before the gate paddles. 

 

[Jerra]

1 hour ago, billS said:

I think that every time that I have encountered a historic pair  they have left the gates open, whether travelling in front of me in the same direction, or coming towards me.

So we can assume it is laziness in that case as I am sure they have heard CRT's polite request.

[NB Lola]

16 minutes ago, Jerra said:

So we can assume it is laziness in that case as I am sure they have heard CRT's polite request.

As per my message, depends on circumstances.

[IanM]

15 hours ago, Cleyley Bob said:

Not sure which ones you are referring too - but haven't noticed that any of the plastic 100 metre chainage signs are missing.

The imperial cast iron chainage plates were never replaced on the relined central section - but I think the others are all still there.

As to the small metric chainage plates - not noticed any of those are missing.

Perhap a trip to Specsavers is needed Mal.......  

There is definitely one large cast iron one in the relined section, I spotted it on Sunday. It's fairly low down on the wall.   

[BWM]

1 hour ago, billS said:

I think that every time that I have encountered a historic pair  they have left the gates open, whether travelling in front of me in the same direction, or coming towards me.

You could apply that logic to wide beams, a number of single handers, hire craft.. but none of these generalisations is particularly helpful.

[mykaskin]

18 hours ago, X Alan W said:

Strange that, it was always the most awkward to use in regards to it's operation A question how many folk passing through that lock use the side pond? i would guess not many

A few do: 

and here: 

 

Edited May 3, 2017 by mykaskin

[Sir Nibble]

2 hours ago, NB Lola said:

It is not for me to respond on the safety or efficacy of the guidance provided by CRT. You need to remonstrate with them as many users will reflect on/ follow their guidance.

 As a matter of fact, I do close gates after use and find it annoying that gates are left open unless conditions require it or the circumstance prevent closing the gates.  Merely because I find it convenient and I support the guidance.  I find there are a small number (not a lot by any degree) of users do not close gates out of pure ignorance/laziness.  Sadly, I have never had the chance to enquire why as they have gone before I get there.  Interestingly, when I am at a lock, waiting, I have never seen a user leave gates open unless it's because the lock is set in our favour, strange.

Next time you find yourself approaching a lock set in your favour with gates open, go alongside and secure the boat at the lock mooring. Go ashore with your windlass. Now you have the inconvenience of putting right someone else's selfishness. Close the gates and run about a foot of water into or out of the lock and you are back where you wanted to be. Now you can equalise the levels and reopen the gate you just shut, go back to the boat and proceed into the lock. I can understand that the extra effort is a pain but necessary for consistency. One could hardly just motor in whilst still deploring the selfishness of whoever left the gate open.

[NB Lola]

2 minutes ago, Sir Nibble said:

Next time you find yourself approaching a lock set in your favour with gates open, go alongside and secure the boat at the lock mooring. Go ashore with your windlass. Now you have the inconvenience of putting right someone else's selfishness. Close the gates and run about a foot of water into or out of the lock and you are back where you wanted to be. Now you can equalise the levels and reopen the gate you just shut, go back to the boat and proceed into the lock. I can understand that the extra effort is a pain but necessary for consistency. One could hardly just motor in whilst still deploring the selfishness of whoever left the gate open.

I must not boat enough, a rare event and only worthy of value if this was intended because they knew I was on my way.  I normally find it's the top lock gates open and I want to go up, or it's the bottom lock gates open and I want to go down.   Must just be unlucky that I arrive at the wrong time.  I will still follow the guidance and local mitigating circumstances.

[billS]

52 minutes ago, BWM said:

You could apply that logic to wide beams, a number of single handers, hire craft.. but none of these generalisations is particularly helpful.

It's neither logic nor a generalisation, simply a statement of fact. It's not something I have noticed with single handers, hire craft or wide beams, so I would not make the same statement about them.

As it happens, I don't have a problem with it. The times it causes me a slight inconvenience are balanced by the times it assists me. My own preference would be for leaving the gates open after exit to be the norm with specified exceptions, rather than the other way round. It would cause less work all round and less wear and tear on the canal infrastructure and my boat's gearbox.

[Muddy Ditch Rich]

some time

5 hours ago, Jerra said:

So we can assume it is laziness in that case as I am sure they have heard CRT's polite request.

No, you are assuming CaRT have a genuine reason to give that advice, and you are assuming anyone from CaRT knows anything about the subject. 

I admire your faith.

[Muddy Ditch Rich]

4 hours ago, NB Lola said:

I must not boat enough, a rare event and only worthy of value if this was intended because they knew I was on my way.  I normally find it's the top lock gates open and I want to go up, or it's the bottom lock gates open and I want to go down.   Must just be unlucky that I arrive at the wrong time.  I will still follow the guidance and local mitigating circumstances.

Your impression must be wrong, the state of locks you arrive at can only be random. 

Those that shut gates are in fact the most selfish boaters, they are denying everyone the chance of a lock in their favor. They then get angry at other boaters trying to work locks correctly, and save them time and effort. Then they point to advise in a CaRT booklet written by people in an office block in Milton Keynes that have no knowledge of boating whatsoever. 

[Jerra]

40 minutes ago, Muddy Ditch Rich said:

some time

No, you are assuming CaRT have a genuine reason to give that advice, and you are assuming anyone from CaRT knows anything about the subject. 

I admire your faith.

They don't need a reason to make a polite request other than it is something they would like you to do.

[NB Lola]

Then, in your eyes I stand guilty as charged.  I respect the guidance and the water conservation argument CRT will no doubt put.  However, in the interests of balance, I will ask CRT for the reason behind that guidance and publish here, if I get a response that is.  If the logic behind closing gates is floored then I would expect that this will open the floodgates of our respected conglomeration.  As single voices we both have our position and should maintain respectfulness, well, I will.