New Batteries for a Battery Killer?

[nicknorman]

11 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

I agree about the equalisation, but I've been equalising for hours each Sunday for the past few weeks, (probably 4 hours or so).

a few months ago one cell was was actually below the top of the plates, but all the others were fine, and had been over the time I'd owned them.

As I've said, if what I do isn't enough to get the many years that others get out of batteries, I am lucky enough to be able to pay the price

If you allow the electrolyte level to drop below the plates, they will be significantly damaged. If you never have to top up your Trojans, you are under-charging them. If all the cells are fairly full but one is below the plates, sounds like a faulty cell / manufacturing fault.

[WotEver]

4 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I would suggest if you dont need to top them up with water you are not charging at a high enough voltage to equalise. What sort of SG reading did you get on the cell that was low in water.

Based on Nick's observation that 'they do need topping up' I would agree. 

Further, the fact that the cells are not equalised also indicates that they haven't been (which is probably because the voltage is too low). 

[nicknorman]

14 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Actually they suggest 16.2v finishing charge in their User Guide!

The other day Nick contradicted this citing the charge profile  graph in the user guide which states a finish charge voltage of 2.45v to 2.70v per cell, but the chart above prescribes 16.2 exactly.

There are various different figures in various different documents from Trojan around the place. From which perhaps we can perhaps deduce that the finishing voltage isn't that critical. Like all things, a middle path is probably the best option. 16.2v (32.4v in your case) corrected for winter temperature is pretty high and likely to damage some boat systems unless they are switched off. I tend to go for 15.5v, up to 16v in winter, for the finishing charge / equalisation but I don't do that every day.

Anyway, exactly how/why are your Trojanoids knackered? Didn't you manage to get the sgs up to ~1.277 in the end? If you did but you still think the capacity is way down, perhaps there is something else wrong? 

Edited March 6, 2017 by nicknorman

[MtB]

Have to agree. I have to add about a third of a litre to each battery after each equalisation cycle.

Not that equalising makes a blind bit of difference even when you DO equalise furiously, in my personal experience.

[MtB]

Just now, nicknorman said:

There are various different figures in various different documents from Trojan around the place. From which perhaps we an deduce that the finishing voltage isn't critical. Like all things, a middle path is probably the best option. 16.2v (32.4v in your case) corrected for winter temperature is pretty high and likely to damage some boat systems unless they are switched off. I tend to go for 15.5v, up to 16v in winter, for the finishing charge / equalisation but I don't do that every day.

Anyway, exactly how/why are your Trojanoids knackered? Didn't you manage to get the sgs up to ~1.277 in the end? If you did but you still think the capacity is way down, perhaps there is something else wrong? 

 

Not on the bote right now but last time I looked, it took only about 28AH to get from 100%SoC down to about 58%SoC on the Smartgauge. IIRC.

And the SGs where all around 1.26* IIRC, never got much into the 1.27* territory.

[nicknorman]

Just now, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Not on the bote right now but last time I looked, it took only about 28AH to get from 100%SoC down to about 58%SoC on the Smartgauge. IIRC.

What are the specific gravities when fully charged?

[WotEver]

3 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Not that equalising makes a blind bit of difference even when you DO equalise furiously, in my personal experience.

 

3 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Didn't you manage to get the sgs up to ~1.277 in the end?

I thought you'd said that too. 

[MtB]

Just now, nicknorman said:

What are the specific gravities when fully charged?

 

Haven't checked for a while.

My records are back on the bote.

Off to work again now. Morden, south London, then deepest Hampshire!

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

If you allow the electrolyte level to drop below the plates, they will be significantly damaged. If you never have to top up your Trojans, you are under-charging them. If all the cells are fairly full but one is below the plates, sounds like a faulty cell / manufacturing fault.

I top my 4 T105 Trojans up every 250 engine/charging hours and each battery takes about half a litre 

[WotEver]

2 hours ago, WotEver said:

Further, the fact that the cells are not equalised also indicates that they haven't been (which is probably because the voltage is too low). 

Re-reading this I don't think it was very clear. What I was trying to say is that the unequal relative density readings indicate that the battery is badly in need of equalisation. So despite what you believe you haven't actually been equalising them, probably because the voltage was too low. 

[Richard10002]

7 hours ago, WotEver said:

Re-reading this I don't think it was very clear. What I was trying to say is that the unequal relative density readings indicate that the battery is badly in need of equalisation. So despite what you believe you haven't actually been equalising them, probably because the voltage was too low. 

If this refers to me, I would agree that my batteries weren't equalised when I took the SGs, and probably hadn't been at any time since I noticed them losing capacity. However, I can confirm that I spent hours performing the process which ought to equalise them, i.e. "equalising"

the process I used was to charge them at 14.8v to 15.1v until the tail current was around 3 to 4 Amps. At this point I would switch to the chargers equalising mode which is 15.5v, and let it run for several hours, usually 4 or so.

If the voltage at 15.5v is too low, or if the time spent equalising is too short, then good luck to anyone trying to equalise anything in the future.

if I can spend less than £250 on 3 x 110Ah batteries which will probably last about 2 years, that is my preferred option. The £250 saving on 4 x Trojan T105 at today's prices will buy, or contribute towards, 200w of solar and an MPPT controller.

I wonder if those who seem to be able to make their batteries last for 5, or even 10, years, are those who go boating for several hours almost every day, thus charging their batteries to 100% almost every day... which suggests that the conclusion being reached by MtB, and me, and some others, is the holy grail of battery management.

I further wonder if the oft suggested regime of 2 hours a day, and 8 hours on one of the weekend days, could be the solution. In my case, where I'm on board from say Wednesday to Sunday, I could charge a couple of hours Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and 8 hours on a Sunday, leaving them at 100% for the solar to take care of until the next Wednesday or Thursday.

[WotEver]

12 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

..,the process I used was to charge them at 14.8v to 15.1v until the tail current was around 3 to 4 Amps. At this point I would switch to the chargers equalising mode which is 15.5v, and let it run for several hours, usually 4 or so.

I suspect that 15.5V is too low, particularly in the winter. See page 19 of this user guide: http://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/TrojanBattery_UsersGuide.pdf

This quotes 16.2V for equalisation. Yes, I know that Trojan have several documents around which quote slightly different voltages but the simple fact is that your batteries were not equalised so there must be a reason. I can't think of one other than too low a voltage. 

Tony

[Richard10002]

48 minutes ago, WotEver said:

I suspect that 15.5V is too low, particularly in the winter. See page 19 of this user guide: http://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/TrojanBattery_UsersGuide.pdf

This quotes 16.2V for equalisation. Yes, I know that Trojan have several documents around which quote slightly different voltages but the simple fact is that your batteries were not equalised so there must be a reason. I can't think of one other than too low a voltage. 

Tony

I don't know of any charger where you can set an equalising voltage of 16.2v?Inguess there might be such a facility on some of the Victrons and Mastervolts may offer it?

[nicknorman]

Just now, Richard10002 said:

I don't know of any charger where you can set an equalising voltage of 16.2v?Inguess there might be such a facility on some of the Victrons and Mastervolts may offer it?

My Mastervolt Combi goes up to 16v. Which is adequate.

[MtB]

Ok here is my last set of SGs, taken on 4/2/17

1.265
1.258
1.258

1.270
1.276
1.272

1.273
1.262
1.260

1.258
1.255
1.262

And now the solar is working here is a really basket case bit of info from my instruments. Batteries were partially charged to 100% on the Smargauge last Thursday. The Smargauge right now is reading 73%. The BMV702 amp counter says the batteries have had a net discharge of 10.4AH since it re-set itself to 100% SoC last Thursday. That makes my battery bank down to about 40AH!

(Battery voltage is 25.3v (25.50v on the Smartgauge) right now but that's with the solar delivering about 3A.)

Edited March 7, 2017 by Mike the Boilerman

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

That makes my battery bank down to about 40AH!

C'mon - admit its time to join the 'disposable battery brigade' (you do appear to be a suitable member)

Charge when you can, replace when the lights go dim.

[MtB]

On 07/03/2017 at 09:15, Alan de Enfield said:

C'mon - admit its time to join the 'disposable battery brigade' (you do appear to be a suitable member)

Charge when you can, replace when the lights go dim.

Looks like I have inadvertently joined already!

Thing is, they will probably not go lower than that 73% now for the next nine months. The solar is getting a grip and the batteries will only need to last overnight from now until next autumn. 

[rusty69]

4 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Looks like I have inadvertently joined already!

Thing is, they will probably not go lower than that 73% now for the next nine months. The solar is getting a grip and the batteries will only need to last overnight from now until next autumn. 

The suns out here, will send some over if you like. 

[Naughty Cal]

11 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

 

I wonder if those who seem to be able to make their batteries last for 5, or even 10, years, are those who go boating for several hours almost every day, thus charging their batteries to 100% almost every day... which suggests that the conclusion being reached by MtB, and me, and some others, is the holy grail of battery management.

We have just replaced our batteries after not quite five years, they were last replaced in May 2012. (We don;t liveaboard full time but we are on board for usually four nights a week and out of the marina off of hook up for at least three of those nights)

We don't give our batteries any special treatment, we fit them and forget. Our charger doesn't have an equalisation mode so they never get equalised. Our alternator charges up to 14.6V so this is the highest they ever get.

When we are out of the marina our cruising will range from an hour to perhaps seven or eight depending on where we are going.

The last set were Varta's which don't seem to get very good write ups on here!

The current set are Bison's (BXC31MF). Not sure what they will be like but we got a very good deal from our supplier South Yorkshire Battery Services. Bit early to tell what they are like yet as we only fitted them on Friday night.

Edited March 7, 2017 by Naughty Cal

[nicknorman]

53 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Ok here is my last set of SGs, taken on 4/2/17

1.265
1.258
1.258

1.270
1.276
1.272

1.273
1.262
1.260

1.258
1.255
1.262

And now the solar is working here is a really basket case bit of info from my instruments. Batteries were partially charged to 100% on the Smargauge last Thursday. The Smargauge right now is reading 73%. The BMV702 amp counter says the batteries have had a net discharge of 10.4AH since it re-set itself to 100% SoC last Thursday. That makes my battery bank down to about 40AH!

(Battery voltage is 25.3v (25.50v on the Smartgauge) right now but that's with the solar delivering about 3A.)

This does seem quite a reasonable set of figures. Batteries lose capacity when the quantities of available lead and the acid don't match up ie either sulphation (which you don't seem to have significantly) or shedding of lead from the plates. Trojans are pretty good at not shedding lead, certainly much better than "leisure" batteries. One would hope that the trojanoids are similar. So I am left wondering if something else is wrong, bad connections etc. If you put a DVM on the actual battery terminals of each battery, does the total voltage equate to a Smartgauge reading of 73%? Are you sure all interconnects are in good condition? Smartgauge wiring / fuse in good condition? It just doesn't sound right.

[smileypete]

12 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

If this refers to me, I would agree that my batteries weren't equalised when I took the SGs, and probably hadn't been at any time since I noticed them losing capacity. However, I can confirm that I spent hours performing the process which ought to equalise them, i.e. "equalising"

the process I used was to charge them at 14.8v to 15.1v until the tail current was around 3 to 4 Amps. At this point I would switch to the chargers equalising mode which is 15.5v, and let it run for several hours, usually 4 or so.

If the voltage at 15.5v is too low, or if the time spent equalising is too short, then good luck to anyone trying to equalise anything in the future.

if I can spend less than £250 on 3 x 110Ah batteries which will probably last about 2 years, that is my preferred option. The £250 saving on 4 x Trojan T105 at today's prices will buy, or contribute towards, 200w of solar and an MPPT controller.

I wonder if those who seem to be able to make their batteries last for 5, or even 10, years, are those who go boating for several hours almost every day, thus charging their batteries to 100% almost every day... which suggests that the conclusion being reached by MtB, and me, and some others, is the holy grail of battery management.

I further wonder if the oft suggested regime of 2 hours a day, and 8 hours on one of the weekend days, could be the solution. In my case, where I'm on board from say Wednesday to Sunday, I could charge a couple of hours Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and 8 hours on a Sunday, leaving them at 100% for the solar to take care of until the next Wednesday or Thursday.

Worth getting solar whatever you have, and if you do it's very likely not worth replacing the Trojans now as it should keep them going fine over summer and with a bit of luck restore some capacity.

I'd let solar take care of them and then do a bit of eq every weekend, keep checking the levels and see how things are late summer time. In summer temps the exact eq voltage needed will be somewhat lower than the winter level which should help things.

Reading in between the lines the batts got into a state somewhere along the line with dangerously low levels and SGs all over the place (ie abuse) so the batts can't really be blamed for that. If access is tricky for topping up then a watering kit can be had from 'global battery shop' from around £100.

Most of the new generation Tracer controllers can be programmed up to 17V with a remote meter or £3 lead and lappie, even some of the cheap £20 PWM controllers.

Edited March 7, 2017 by smileypete

[mrsmelly]

17 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

We have just replaced our batteries after not quite five years, they were last replaced in May 2012. (We don;t liveaboard full time but we are on board for usually four nights a week and out of the marina off of hook up for at least three of those nights)

We don't give our batteries any special treatment, we fit them and forget. Our charger doesn't have an equalisation mode so they never get equalised. Our alternator charges up to 14.6V so this is the highest they ever get.

When we are out of the marina our cruising will range from an hour to perhaps seven or eight depending on where we are going.

The last set were Varta's which don't seem to get very good write ups on here!

The current set are Bison's (BXC31MF). Not sure what they will be like but we got a very good deal from our supplier South Yorkshire Battery Services. Bit early to tell what they are like yet as we only fitted them on Friday night.

I think the main difference is that you are Hobby boaters and Mike like me are full time liveaboards. When you leave your boat at its moorings is it " Plugged in " just a couple of days a week plugged in makes a humungous difference to battery life. I am not plugged but do charge each and every day whereas Mike does not have that opportunity with his work/lifestyle so his batteries are it seems suffering. Mine have been on over two years now which as a off grid liveaboard is brilliant ( over 700 cycles ) and the sun is now kicking in so they may well last a few more weeks yet 

[WotEver]

17 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

the sun is now kicking in so they may well last a few more weeks yet

With Solar beginning to work I bet they last you right through the summer now

[dmr]

I can only say once again, I don't really look after my Trojans that well. In winter I run the engine two hours every evening which just gets to 95-100% on the Smartgage, but much less than 100% on tail current. Sometimes I manage to go two days without charging, usually when Gillie is away so not doing her power sucking photo editing or computer gaming). Every few weeks when I feel the capacity is getting low I equalise at 15.5v volts for two or three hours, and maybe repeat the next day. I don't usually measure gravities cus I don't enjoy that job. I have once or twice used 16v when I let things get really bad. In summer we cruise compulsively and this appears to bring the Trojans back to full health. Got 6 Trojans, 4 are two years old, two are now 6 years old. Don't know exact capacities as I don't have an amp hour counter, (but am making progress with the plan to build one).

I can't help feeling that Mike and the op are both having some other problem. Mike does appear to have one weak cell. Mike, I think measuring capacity starting at an assumed 100% might be be an issue as we know Smartgage is not good at deducing 100%. Charge batteries, take a bit out, turn off everything (go to pub), measure resting voltage and note smartgage reading , now go down to 50% and then deduce capacity.

and Mike as you have a neat hydrometer....measure all gravities at fully charged and then again at 50%. I just suspect that the gravity of that weak cell is not changing as much as it sould??

..................Dave

[cuthound]

4 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Ok here is my last set of SGs, taken on 4/2/17

1.265
1.258
1.258

1.270
1.276
1.272

1.273
1.262
1.260

1.258
1.255
1.262

And now the solar is working here is a really basket case bit of info from my instruments. Batteries were partially charged to 100% on the Smargauge last Thursday. The Smargauge right now is reading 73%. The BMV702 amp counter says the batteries have had a net discharge of 10.4AH since it re-set itself to 100% SoC last Thursday. That makes my battery bank down to about 40AH!

(Battery voltage is 25.3v (25.50v on the Smartgauge) right now but that's with the solar delivering about 3A.)

These readings show that the batteries are not quite equalised (sg's should be around 1270 + 5) but are not far off.

 I would wait and see if solar brings an improvement, and continue equalising monthly.

Did you contact Yuasa using the link I provided in another thread? That are very helpful in my experience.

If not, here are there contact details again.

https://www.yuasa.co.uk/contacts