Towpath walker in Mountain Bike Incident

[Jak]

- statistically overwhelmingly victims of poor driving behaviour in which drivers are at fault - for the inability of drivers to manage the lethal machinery they sit inside/upon.

Anyone who posts this when the comments were about the impact of kids running out into the road with no notice in front of law abiding motorists won't be paying any attention. Already made their minds up without bothering about the circumstances. Motorists are evil.

[Arthur Marshall]

 

 

A thread with a possibly intentional misdirection in its headline, again stimulating the rage response of cyclist hate.

On a forum where people have posted approvingly of assault on cyclists with mooring pin/spiked rod/line at neck height. Shame.

The death of anyone on road or otherwise is a tragedy.

Well, we are more concerned with towpaths than roads on here, and we are more likely to be mowed down by cyclists (some motor assisted) than by manic car drivers. I might mention that the death of most people is actually a bit sad, so it's a bit pointless mentioning it, especially if you're complaining about people being emotive.

I don't think many of us hate cyclists, bearing in mind most of us cycle, and the idea of clouting thoughtless passers by with a mooring pin has struck most of us at one time or another, though I rather doubt we'd actually do it. Fantasy is sometimes a calming thing, and I have many a time thought dark thoughts about stupid kids on motorbikes hurtling past my boat at full pelt, careless of pedestrians or anyone else. The lake in Stoke and down by the Wedgewood Musiem seem to be blackspots.

Anyway, the answer to the OP's question appears to be no, we don't know anything about it.

[zenataomm]

Tigerr .........

 

Your poorly thought through conclusion to events that you were not present at to witness, demonstrates why the police take witness reports with a pinch of salt.

Imagine if you had seen the two accidents upon which you so kindly gave us the benefit of your opinion. I can't even begin to imagine what you'd report in order to support your perverted view of who was at fault, and why.

 

However, perhaps that's the price to pay for having the ability to know exactly what happened when you weren't there to actually see it.

So I am happy to totally support you and your views ..... in exchange for sharing with me the following: -

 

1) Where exactly did King John lose the Crown Jewels when crossing The Wash?

2) The location please of Lucky Lord Lucan, I'd like to write a book and will share the credit with you.

3) What happened to my Nectar Card, the woman at Sainsbury's couldn't remember me giving it to her.

4) Don't waste any time explaining the benefits of my Government Pension being extended again, I'm sure you appreciate it, I however merely refuse to.

[blackrose]

The Dutch have the right idea Car driver, Bike rider then pedestrian the most vurerable has the protection of law.

Yes, but it's still not a given even under Dutch or Danish law that the most vulnerable has no responsibility for their own safety. So if someone runs out into the road without looking and gets hit by a car that doesn't automatically mean the driver was responsible.

Edited November 30, 2016 by blackrose

[blackrose]

= person responsible.

We don't know the who the person responsible was. It could have been the victim themselves.

[Athy]

We don't know the who the person responsible was. It could have been the victim themselves.

No, "victim" and "person responsible" are not normally the same person.

[FadeToScarlet]

Next to the nearside kerb. What had this got to do with a cyclists lack of observation and sense of self preservation?

Because that's exactly where they should not be when vehicles are turning left, for the reasons you outlined in your previous post.

 

Cycle infrastructure is often poorly designed or even downright dangerous. Anyone cycling should not be on the left hand side of any vehicle, especially when it is turning left, but that's often where the cycle lanes are- which is exactly what other road users expect them to be.

 

I'm not saying cyclists are blameless, always. There's a lot of bad and some dangerous behaviour, such as jumping red lights (my own personal bugbear) or cycling where they shouldn't.

 

But there's more to it than just saying "many cyclists have no self preservation" when the cycle infrastructure puts them where they shouldn't be.

[alan_fincher]

No, "victim" and "person responsible" are not normally the same person.

 

I've hospitalised myself twice in recent years whilst cycling, once seriously with consequences that are likely to stay with me forever.

 

One took place on the road, the other on a towpath on the Rochdale.

 

In neither case was any other person or vehicle involved.

 

In each case I think it can reasonably be argued that "victim" and "person responsible" were the same person, because I have nobody else to blame!

 

(For the avoidance of doubt I was not wearing Lycra on either occasion!).

[Alan de Enfield]

 

 

1) Where exactly did King John lose the Crown Jewels when crossing The Wash?

 

 

They have been found.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwUc4DSIHlA

[furnessvale]

Because that's exactly where they should not be when vehicles are turning left, for the reasons you outlined in your previous post.

 

Cycle infrastructure is often poorly designed or even downright dangerous. Anyone cycling should not be on the left hand side of any vehicle, especially when it is turning left, but that's often where the cycle lanes are- which is exactly what other road users expect them to be.

 

I'm not saying cyclists are blameless, always. There's a lot of bad and some dangerous behaviour, such as jumping red lights (my own personal bugbear) or cycling where they shouldn't.

 

But there's more to it than just saying "many cyclists have no self preservation" when the cycle infrastructure puts them where they shouldn't be.

Sometimes an HGV turning left has to be in the outside lane in order to make the left turn due to the trailer cutting in. In such circumstances, it is often possible for a car, let alone a cycle, to move up the inside of the lorry.

 

Provided the lorry is clearly indicating in advance I maintain the fault remains with the car/cycle for going up the inside. The same maintains if the lorry is in the inside lane and turning left, providing the lorry is indicating.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

Edited November 30, 2016 by furnessvale

[Alan de Enfield]

Sometimes an HGV turning left has to be in the outside lane in order to make the left turn due to the trailer cutting in. In such circumstances, it is often possible for a car, let alone a cycle, to move up the inside of the lorry.

 

Provided the lorry is clearly indicating in advance I maintain the fault remains with the car/cycle for going up the inside. The same maintains if the lorry is in the inside lane and turning left, providing the lorry is indicating.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

 

Some months ago, our local TV (Lincolnshire & Yorkshire) ran a safety feature and the particular episode featured trucks and 'bike visibility'.

 

The "presenter" (an avid cyclist who was campaigning about cycle safety) was invited to drive a truck around a 'training area' which was marked out with T-Junctions, Cross-Roads etc.

 

There were two trucks used.

The 1st truck had 'conventional doors' - When in the drivers seat and planning to turn left, over 20 cyclists were 'lost' to sight down the 'nearside' of the truck. As she pulled forward the instructor told her to stop, get out of the cab and go around to the nearside. She was very surprised to see all of the cyclists there.

 

The 2nd truck, had additional mirrors angled 'down & along' the nearside, AND, it had a re-designed passenger door which was 'glass' in its bottom half. She could now see all 20+ of the cyclists waiting on her nearside.

 

She went away having a new appreciation of the responsibilities of the cyclists, and the difficulties of drivers, & said she would now be campaigning for the amendments / redesigns to truck and bus 'nearsides' to be made mandatory.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Alan de Enfield

[Athy]

Sounds like good, responsible television.

To be fair, most 'buses nowadays do have glazed front entrance doors. But I wonder (never having driven a lorry) what the nearside "rear view" mirror actually does. Is its ineffectiveness a contributory factor to foreign lorries' playful habit of pulling out straight in front of overtaking traffic on our dual carriageways, because the drivers simply can't see the approaching vehicles?

[MtB]

Cycle infrastructure is often poorly designed or even downright dangerous. Anyone cycling should not be on the left hand side of any vehicle, especially when it is turning left, but that's often where the cycle lanes are- which is exactly what other road users expect them to be.

 

 

I'm curious. Where should the cycle lanes be? Or do you hold they should not exist at all?

 

I often find myself musing how an alien viewing The Earth might explain to his mate how stupid we are.

 

Alien 1: Those humans, they have big metal machines to drive around theirs lands in.

 

Alien 2: What, they just drive them about over the lands, damaging their crops etc?

 

Alien 1: No they have made special tracks to drive them on

 

Alien 2: Ah I see. So once they get to their destination, how do they get back where they came from?

 

Alien 1: They drive back down the same track!

 

Alien 2: Eh? Why don't they all bang into each other?!

 

Alien 1: They draw a line down the middle and try to drive on the left of the line

 

Alien 2: Really? Does it work?

 

Alien 1: No.... they really ARE backward beings...

[furnessvale]

Sounds like good, responsible television.

To be fair, most 'buses nowadays do have glazed front entrance doors. But I wonder (never having driven a lorry) what the nearside "rear view" mirror actually does. Is its ineffectiveness a contributory factor to foreign lorries' playful habit of pulling out straight in front of overtaking traffic on our dual carriageways, because the drivers simply can't see the approaching vehicles?

Many lorries in London now carry a mirror on the nearside door, angled down to look into the blind spot.

 

A new style cab is also being adopted for urban lorries which looks like a refuse lorry, or mobile crane cab ie, very low slung with a glass door on the nearside.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[alan_fincher]

Sounds like good, responsible television.

To be fair, most 'buses nowadays do have glazed front entrance doors. But I wonder (never having driven a lorry) what the nearside "rear view" mirror actually does. Is its ineffectiveness a contributory factor to foreign lorries' playful habit of pulling out straight in front of overtaking traffic on our dual carriageways, because the drivers simply can't see the approaching vehicles?

 

All large vehicles have blind spots, but the slogan often appearing on lorries that says "If you can't see my mirrors, then I can't see you", is probably one of the things other road users, particularly cyclists, of course, should take heed of.

 

One thing that is obvious, if you think about it, but many seem incapable of working out, is that when an articulated lorry makes (say), a sharp left turn, then as soon as the tractor unit is at a strong angle to the trailer, the mirrors on that side offer little support, as they are pointing firmly at the side of the trailer, and not the road alongside it. The driver has to have the experience to know his back end will get cleanly round, because he often can't actually watch all of it in the mirrors. If a cyclist, or other person, puts themselves on a bit of road the trailer needs to follow round, the driver simply cannot see them.

 

Another thing that is less obvious to work out, unless you have driven one, is that unlike an old front engined bus, in a modern rear engined bus, the driver actually sits up to 6 feet forward of the front wheels. This requires a completely different skill set for a vehicle where you sit either just behind or well behind the front wheels, as the driver of the modern bus actually needs to ensure when making a turn or pulling in past another parked vehicle that they have travelled 6 feet oir so beyond the corner or vehicle before making their turn. If they don't they will possibly cut across a pavement or pulling in ahead of. Clearly it is a driver responsibility to get this right, but members of the public often don't seem to appreciate that a bus making a 90 degree turn needs to stick its front end right out of a junction, often meaning it will need to swing it's front-end right across to the wrong side of the road it is turning on to, in order to complete its move.

 

if we all had experience at driving all vehicle types from push-bikes, through white vans, to mega-artics, then I feel sure we would all be better drivers, but few of us get to see it from the perspective of the drivers of every type of vehicle.

Edited November 30, 2016 by alan_fincher

[Hawkmoth]

i was involved in a RTA (hit in the rear) on a duel carriageway, i had to get out of the window because he had hit me that hard the doors wouldnt open, anyway went to hosp got treated a week later i got a bill for treatment because it was a RTA, sent bill to insurance company who paid it so yes all parties get billed if in a RTA

Do you lose your NCB when this happens?

[Athy]

 

All large vehicles have blind spots, but the slogan often appearing on lorries that says "If you can't see my mirrors, then I can't see you", is probably one of the things other road users, particularly cyclists, of course, should take heed of.

 

One thing that is obvious, if you think about it, but many seem incapable of working out, is that when an articulated lorry makes (say), a sharp left turn, then as soon as the tractor unit is at a strong angle to the trailer, the mirrors on that side offer little support, as they are pointing firmly at the side of the trailer, and not the road alongside it. The driver has to have the experience to know his back end will get cleanly round, because he often can't actually watch all of it in the mirrors. If a cyclist, or other person, puts themselves on a bit of road the trailer needs to follow round, the driver simply cannot see them.

 

Another thing that is less obvious to work out, unless you have driven one, is that unlike an old front engined bus, in a modern rear engined bus, the driver actually sits up to 6 feet forward of the front wheels. This requires a completely different skill set for a vehicle where you sit either just behind or well behind the front wheels, as the driver of the modern bus actually needs to ensure when making a turn or pulling in past another parked vehicle that they have travelled 6 feet oir so beyond the corner or vehicle before making their turn. If they don't they will possibly cut across a pavement or pulling in ahead of. Clearly it is a driver responsibility to get this right, but members of the public often don't seem to appreciate that a bus making a 90 degree turn needs to stick its front end right out of a junction, often meaning it will need to swing it's front-end right across to the wrong side of the road it is turning on to, in order to complete its move.

 

if we all had experience at driving all vehicle types from push-bikes, through white vans, to mega-artics, then I feel sure we would all be better drivers, but few of us get to see it from the perspective of the drivers of every type of vehicle.

Good points.

Most of our local 'buses have their front wheels level with, or just in front of, the driving position. However, the local company (Norfolk Green) has just been taken over by the larger Stagecoach firm, which has brought in a few vehicles of the type you describe, with their "front" wheels placed several feet back from the driving cab. I have noticed one or two drivers struggling to get these around the lanes.

[WotEver]

Do you lose your NCB when this happens?

My mum did but it was many years ago so things could have changed. I suggest you either trawl through your policy documents or (probably quicker) phone the company and ask. All policies tend to vary in detail in my experience.

 

For instance, most motor policies don't care if you've had to attend a SAC (Speed Awareness Course) but some insurers will load the insurance in those cases, so I always take the route that if it might be relevant, ask.

[Jerra]

 

meaning it will need to swing it's front-end right across to the wrong side of the road it is turning on to, in order to complete its move.

 

It sounds like extremely bad design on somebody's part to me.

[MtB]

It sounds like extremely bad design on somebody's part to me.

 

 

Not really. A 60ft long vehicle IS going to fit around tighter corners if the wheels are not positioned at the extremities, i.e. one on each corner. The further in they are, the more manoeuvrable it will be. Once you make it more manoeuvrable, where else should you put the driver other than right at the front?

[Jerra]

 

 

Not really. A 60ft long vehicle IS going to fit around tighter corners if the wheels are not positioned at the extremities, i.e. one on each corner. The further in they are, the more manoeuvrable it will be. Once you make it more manoeuvrable, where else should you put the driver other than right at the front?

I am not convinced that anything which forces a vehicle to go on to the other side of the road for normal movement is good design. Your aliens would certainly consider it backward.

[zenataomm]

 

They have been found.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwUc4DSIHlA

 

Strewth's Teeth! Somebody thought to ask Tigerr before I did.

[alan_fincher]

I am not convinced that anything which forces a vehicle to go on to the other side of the road for normal movement is good design. Your aliens would certainly consider it backward.

 

For any rigid vehicle of up to (say) 30 or 35 feet long, there will always be difficulties in making 90 degree turns, irrespective of where you put the wheels.

 

Put them in the "corners", and the middle of the vehicle is likely to sweep across the pavement or whatever is forming the corner.

 

Put them well set in from the corners, (as on a typical rear engined bus, or many of the newer lorries with low slung cabs), then the above is far less likely to happen, but the ends will have to swing into areas of road where a shorter vehicle would not.

 

Neither is poor design - both have their advantages and pitfalls - and the driver has to deal with that particular vehicle type.

 

The main thing anyone has got "wrong" is that many of the roads date back a century or more, and nobody expected they would need to accommodate rigid vehicles up to 12 metres, (or over 39 feet),or articulated vehicles up to 16.5 metres, (over 54 feet), in length when they were built. (I think those are the correct maximum lengths in the UK - they really are very large dimensions indeed, given how small and congested many of the roads they need to use are).

[bargemast]

Sounds like good, responsible television.

To be fair, most 'buses nowadays do have glazed front entrance doors. But I wonder (never having driven a lorry) what the nearside "rear view" mirror actually does. Is its ineffectiveness a contributory factor to foreign lorries' playful habit of pulling out straight in front of overtaking traffic on our dual carriageways, because the drivers simply can't see the approaching vehicles?

If they do that in a LHD lorry, it's only because they don't look in their mirrors, or badly misjudge the speed of other traffic already in the lane they are going to use, as their door rear-view mirrors are multiple and show well enough what they have to see.

 

The hardest part of driving a LHD lorry, and even a LHD van with limited direct visibility to the right behind the doorframe, is at some roundabouts where the right door rear-view mirrors don't cover enough, they should have a camera to make up for that lack of most important visiblility.

 

LHD lorries should have less of a problem with the bicycles when making left turns, as they are on their side where they have better visibility of the situation than a RHD lorry.

 

Peter.

[cuthound]

The mirrors on articulated LGV's are usually set up so that the driver can see closely along the side of the trailer, to aid reversing.

 

He cannot see things part the way along the trailer but slightly out from it, for example a car running along side the trailer in the adjacent lane. It never ceases to amaze me how many people drive alongside articulated trucks in this blind spot. I am surprised that sideswipes don't course more frequently.

 

I wait behind a truck until I can see a space for me ahead, before beginning my overtake, even in slow momoving traffic.

 

Edited to correct autowrong induced gobbledegook.

Edited November 30, 2016 by cuthound