How much is original?

[Heartland]

The thread posted about the Lament that marked the end of canal carrying can be extended to what has happened to these craft, The subsequent conversion of former working boats has kept many examples of this former age around right down to the present time, However conversion of such craft for pleasure or hotel boat use has led to changes in the boats. Some have been cut down or even split into two.

 

Eventually some disappear from the network. For example the former part of the boat that became the bar at the Dry Dock public house at Netherton has gone, presumed scrapped after the conversion of the pub.

 

I attach an image of Elk taken on the Bridgewater in 2010. How much of this craft is original?

 

Ray Shill

 

 

 

 

[Laurence Hogg]

Any ex working boat was in theory due for replacement at around 25 years old. Many today are rather akin to preserved locomotives and stock in as much that most of the plating will have been replaced, wooden cabins rebuilt or replaced with a steel one and so on. Although frowned upon by many at the time, the preservation of "Friendship" was a wonderful idea, only cosmetic alteration to improve the original appearance has taken place and today you see "Sephtons " dock work, not a imitation or their work by a modern day replica builder.

Its a great pity more were not preserved this way.

[Jrtm]

I would say nearly all wood work would have been replaced (dosnt apply to all boats there are the odd few that have bits left but most will have been replaced from they day they were built. Alot of boats still have quite a bit still from there working days but as above not necessarily there built date. Alot of iron work will prob be from built date. It all comes down the the boats history i guess. There a bit like the flying scotsman together it makes an old loco but indervidual parts make it mostly replaced

[roland elsdon]

Replacement or replication

An ex horse boat turned into a motor with a cabin on is a boat saved but modified,in the usable historic bits are still ther but not quite right, and unlikely ever to be returned to form

An unconverted or de converted motor with original engine like denobola is a rare beast and in preservation, but of course is having repairs commensurate to working days ( oh there's a definition) a correct boat is one that has only had repairs commensurate to remaining in working form.

I feel more history with a boat in its previous form regardless of modification than one used to build another, Ie butty chopped into motor. But I also hope that not all the glorious 1970/80 conversions get de converted to original form

[Derek R.]

I would put a replica as being a new build following the plans or at least lines of an old craft, or whatever. Eventually as parts are replaced on original items, it's quite possible to have lost all the original structure. What is it then? Does it matter? If it remains as originally built, then in part it is original.

[junior]

Interesting thread. A few of us were having a discussion over beer the other night and the question came up...

 

"Is it know which 'historic' boat still retains the most originality?".

 

There were no serious rivet counters present so not only did nobody present know, but we wondered if in fact anybody could know.

 

I thought about starting a thread, but for now I'll just leave the question here.

 

I do recall a thread a couple of years ago where it was discussed which boats still retained their original cabins. I think Tadworth was one mentioned. Towcester possibly another?

 

Are there any with original cabins and largely untouched hulls?

[pete harrison]

Interesting thread. A few of us were having a discussion over beer the other night and the question came up...

 

"Is it know which 'historic' boat still retains the most originality?".

 

There were no serious rivet counters present so not only did nobody present know, but we wondered if in fact anybody could know.

 

I thought about starting a thread, but for now I'll just leave the question here.

 

I do recall a thread a couple of years ago where it was discussed which boats still retained their original cabins. I think Tadworth was one mentioned. Towcester possibly another?

 

Are there any with original cabins and largely untouched hulls?

BELLATRIX - iron composite retaining wooden bottom, original cabin, original engine type (but not original engine), never been converted and in family ownership since 1965.

[___]

BELLATRIX - iron composite retaining wooden bottom, original cabin, original engine type (but not original engine), never been converted and in family ownership since 1965.

 

And here it is on it's mooring earlier this month. Novel seating; not sure about the originality of that. ?

 

Edited June 23, 2016 by Captain Pegg

[FadeToScarlet]

Denebola had the original footings when I went to view it.

 

They were weeping water through in several places, not surprising it needed refooting. I think it still has a wooden bottom.

[archie57]

Some recent before and after pictures of the Denebola -

http://www.nationalhistoricships.org.uk/data/nrhv/vessels/1442_DENEBOLA_4_1459241322.JPG

http://www.nationalhistoricships.org.uk/data/nrhv/vessels/1442_DENEBOLA_7_1459241434.JPG

Edited June 23, 2016 by archie57

[JamesWoolcock]

The thread posted about the Lament that marked the end of canal carrying can be extended to what has happened to these craft, The subsequent conversion of former working boats has kept many examples of this former age around right down to the present time, However conversion of such craft for pleasure or hotel boat use has led to changes in the boats. Some have been cut down or even split into two.

 

Eventually some disappear from the network. For example the former part of the boat that became the bar at the Dry Dock public house at Netherton has gone, presumed scrapped after the conversion of the pub.

 

I attach an image of Elk taken on the Bridgewater in 2010. How much of this craft is original?

 

Ray Shill

 

 

 

 

MARQUIS. Chopped to 54ft but original counter, fore end and all but the bit cut out of the middle.

Steel bottom, yes. But small overplating generally behind some knees only. Mainly on one side (?) Not been refooted. Some hull parts a bit worn, but others as new.

Of course a 1970's wooden cabin over sheeted in steel in 2002.

 

Built Saltley 1898.

 

Oh heck! Out of water survey next Easter

 

James

Edited June 24, 2016 by JamesWoolcock

[JamesWoolcock]

MARQUIS.

Quite a lot left.

A composite iron boat built at Saltley. Chopped to 54ft but hull wise has original counter, fore end and all but the bit cut out of the middle.

Steel bottom, yes. But small overplating generally behind some knees only. Mainly on one side (?) Not been refooted. Some hull parts a bit worn, but others as new.

Of course a 1970's wooden cabin over sheeted in steel in 2002.

 

Built Saltley 1898.

 

As I've posted before on here, does anyone know who supplied FMC's iron then?

 

Oh heck! Out of water survey next Easter

 

James

[gazza]

And here it is on it's mooring earlier this month. Novel seating; not sure about the originality of that. ?

 

The perspective of that shot is great, it makes the boat opposite Bellatrix look like a toy.

[Pluto]

 

As I've posted before on here, does anyone know who supplied FMC's iron then?

Low Moor tends to be mentioned as the best for boat-building, but other companies products could have been used. Any good old (19th century) metallurgy book will give a list of the various sources, together with compositions. Just get a piece analysed and you should be able to answer your question. I am not sure if this has ever been done with regard to narrowboats. As an aside, Low Moor iron was purefied using limestone brought down from the Craven area by canal.

[___]

The perspective of that shot is great, it makes the boat opposite Bellatrix look like a toy.

Not sure how to take that Gazza; the boat opposite being my own ?

 

I like to think having most of the hull in the water rather than out of it is a good thing on a boat but given that Bellatrix is one of the small GU boats it is a bit eye opening when I encounter a large one.

 

JP

Edited June 24, 2016 by Captain Pegg

[gazza]

Not sure how to take that Gazza; the boat opposite being my own ?

 

I like to think having most of the hull in the water rather than out of it is a good thing on a boat but given that Bellatrix is one of the small GU boats it is a bit eye opening when I encounter a large one.

 

JP

I meant it more from the photographic point of view, I've got a great pic of my wife giving our dog a cuddle, he's slightly closer to the lens, it gives the appearance of the dog having a head nearly half as big again as Mrs Gazza! I have to be careful with that too, what with having a lump of a rottie, it's very thin ice to tread on when talking about that picture

 

As you say, more Boat in the water is a good thing. Unless the bottom is too close to the top

Edited June 24, 2016 by gazza

[dor]

I understand that the only original parts of the fly boat Saturn are the iron knees. Should it be considered as a replica rather than a preservation?

[Heartland]

The talk about iron boats raises a question about the longevity of such craft. In the Black Country there were a few iron boat builders and apart from the bridges made by the Horseley Company there were also some boats. Putting aside the Aaron Mamby, they made boats for various canal construction projects.

 

Whilst the carriers craft of today that remain are from what is often a twentieth century build, but the Nineteenth Century also produced the iron boat and there were even boat societies formed to finance the building.

 

Perhaps readers from this site might recall which are the surviving examples

 

Ray Shill

[___]

I meant it more from the photographic point of view, I've got a great pic of my wife giving our dog a cuddle, he's slightly closer to the lens, it gives the appearance of the dog having a head nearly half as big again as Mrs Gazza! I have to be careful with that too, what with having a lump of a rottie, it's very thin ice to tread on when talking about that picture

As you say, more Boat in the water is a good thing. Unless the bottom is too close to the top

I knew you did really. ?

 

And I read about the perspective issue as the explanation behind things like the recent giant rat story.

 

JP

Edited June 24, 2016 by Captain Pegg

[twbm]

I was standing in Brighton yesterday musing upon this very point whilst looking at the sides and knees in the hold. From the gunwales down to about 18 inches up from the bottom is mostly original. Everything else is proper Triggers Broom stuff.