How does this rank?

[fergyguy]

just browsing through one of the catalogues i picked up at crick from one of my short listed builders and the specifications listed below is what he is suggesting we would be best to use if cc and living abroad 365 days a year. can you take a look and tell me what you think? I'm still of the opinion i would want solar fitted but how much??this is for a 60 x 12.5 wb boat packed with all the goodies so need a good power source...would i still need a separate gennie?? what do you guys think?

 

specification

 

Beta marine 90hp green line engine with pro 500 gearbox twin motor hybrid and a power station alternator.

 

Provides 20 kw of quiet electric drive and 13 kw of generation capability.

 

Battery bank is 800 ah at 48v providing 30k of stored energy and a centralised watering and venting system.

 

5kva (10kva peak) charger inverter allowing electric cooking (fan oven and induction hob) which in hand allows you to have a non gas boat.

 

Radio controlled hybrid motor and bow thruster from a small hand held unit.

 

This is how its printed in their paperwork but i would appreciate if you seasoned guys can tell me in plain english is this good bad or indifferent??? thanks.

[MtB]

When it's just out of guarantee and it breaks down, how familiar with it do you think yer average towpath mechanic will be with it?

 

Or even if within guarantee, do you really think Beta are gonna send a bloke out to fix it?

 

Non-standard stuff is all great when it works, but when it doesn't all the local marina bods will stand around scratching their heads and saying "This is very interesting. But we don't keep parts for it". Probably.

 

I'd wait until hybrid systems are commonplace before buying one if I were you, unless you are confident mending it yourself. Because one thing is certain, it WILL break down, sooner or later.

[bargemast]

Boats loaded with all sort of what you call goodies, are very power hungry, so if you don't cruise enough for your engine to charge the batteries, or a lack of sunshine for the solar panels, you'll quickly run out of power.

 

I think that it will be hard to survive for 365 days of the year without a genny, unless you moor in a marina, connected to shore-power.

 

Peter.

Edited June 6, 2016 by bargemast

[fergyguy]

i must confess the hybrid bit did bother me but to be fair to the builder he did say without issue he would be happy to install the engine we wanted so i was swayed towards a more robust unit without the toys...in my mind a well tried and tested power unit has to be a less risk option plus if its a straight forward lump then I'm guessing most marine engineers would have come across it before so less hassle fixing faults. I was considering Ventus? unit fitted with high output alternators supply a large battery bank supported by solar. There will be room to install a diesel gennie in the engine compartment they have said not sure what size yet but i must confess being out on the water 365 i like the fact that if ever the engine fails and the sun decides not to shine then at least all those power hungry goodies on board can be kept working. I like the sound of fitting hybrid engine but like mike says they are still in early days and no doubt they will become the way to go once reliability has been sorted and the marine engineers get used to working on them.

[Paul C]

I think he identified you were a bit "green" to the world of boating, and tried to sell you the most sophisticated/expensive thing they had.

 

Electric cooking - doesn't make sense on a canal boat.

 

The rest of the kit is propping this up, and costing unnecessary thousands etc.

[cuthound]

I have worked in the critical power industry all of my life, so I am more familiar with this type of thing than most on this forum.

 

Would I have one yet? No, for exactly the reasons MtB says. In my experience, even at a professional level, complicated things and new technology break down more often and take longer to fix, even with full factory support.

 

If you read this forum regularly, you will read tales of relatively simple things stumping some boatyard "engineers".

 

A better (simpler) solution IMHO would be conventional engine (Beta 50?) & hydraulic gearbox for propulsion, 0.5-1kW of solar for summer electricity generation and stand alone silenced 2-5kva generator in engine hole for winter electricity generation.

 

Having said that an electric narrowboat called Watt Ever" passed my mooring the other day when I was cutting back the paint on my boat, ano got almost opposite me before I heard it.

[fergyguy]

hi paul c to be fair to the builder he did not try to sell us anything..the specification i have shown is whats in his paperwork as an option not cast in stone..the crick boat did not have the hybrid and it did have gas cooking etc...to be honest he was the ONLY builder at the show who actually LISTENED to what we wanted and he made it very clear that he would build to what we wanted (unless it was beyond doing) and then he would offer suggestions on alternatives.

[dmr]

I think you're winding us up.

My own observation is that the failure rate amongst high power wide beams is much higher than amongst simple life narrowboats.

Are you sure that you really want to live on the cut, you are not going to have much in common with a lot of your neighbours?

 

...............Dave

[PaulG]

To my eye that lot looks over the top in power terms.

As others have said, there's a lot to go wrong, and when it does, it's going to be expensive.

 

One of the boats in our marina has just had problems with their bow thruster, which among other things, damaged the cabling.

 

The boat is from a very well-known and reputable builder that I will not name here (think Josher bow & riverts!).

 

The engineer that I spoke to told me that the cabling to the bow thruster is actually welding cable.

 

It is also inacessible so they are going to have to cut part of the foredeck out to get access to replace the cable.

 

The owner has recently had a repaint...

[Alan de Enfield]

I think you're winding us up.

My own observation is that the failure rate amongst high power wide beams is much higher than amongst simple life narrowboats.

Are you sure that you really want to live on the cut, you are not going to have much in common with a lot of your neighbours?

 

...............Dave

 

To quote one of the widebeam manufaturers :

 

".......is designed with all the characteristics of a city apartment but with the capability of cruising the wider canals and rivers, UK and European with simplicity."

 

They got that right - square and pretty much un-steerable (other manufacturers and materials are available)

[MtB]

I think you're winding us up.

My own observation is that the failure rate amongst high power wide beams is much higher than amongst simple life narrowboats.

Are you sure that you really want to live on the cut, you are not going to have much in common with a lot of your neighbours?

 

...............Dave

 

 

Just to clarify, by 'failure rate' I think Dave means brand new £150k widebeam buyers failing to adapt to lifstyle on the water, not technical failure of the widebeam itself.

All that power requires fuel, and you either have to lug it to the boat in cans or lug a big heavy and clumsy to manouver widebeam regularly up the cut to a fuel retailer.

 

Unless there is a regular fuel boat passing that is!

Edited June 6, 2016 by Mike the Boilerman

[Paul C]

hi paul c to be fair to the builder he did not try to sell us anything..the specification i have shown is whats in his paperwork as an option not cast in stone..the crick boat did not have the hybrid and it did have gas cooking etc...to be honest he was the ONLY builder at the show who actually LISTENED to what we wanted and he made it very clear that he would build to what we wanted (unless it was beyond doing) and then he would offer suggestions on alternatives.

 

Fair enough (regarding the 'selling' aspect) but also please listen to myself and others regarding, in general terms, putting expensive/top-of-the-range/unfamiliar equipment onto a boat. There are sound reasons why the canal boat industry is somewhat conservative.

 

I think for your needs, basically you need to decide if you'll have 1 internal combustion engine (ie which will be the "normal" boat propulsion engine, but that also can generate adequate electricity and do the job of a generator); or 2 - ie a normal engine, and a generator of some kind. I'd say unless that 2nd engine also runs on diesel and can generate hot water too, its not worth doing. And those styles of generator are expensive, so might not make it worthwhile compared to eg a Travelpower on a normal engine.

 

Do what is your best guess at a power audit too, just as an appreciation of how much power you need and how to generate it, recharge batteries which will be depleted when there's no solar and you can't run the gennie/engine, etc.

 

Regarding solar - it would be daft not to have it. But, once you've more or less adequately covered your needs, then more and more solar to cover the edges of spring/autumn and some power in winter, becomes more and more marginal. You won't be short on roof space, but still its a diminishing return. Also this is why a power audit is a good idea, because it will help size the ideal solar installation.

 

Personally, and making an educated guess at numbers, I'd go for a single engine with Travelpower big enough to power a washing machine; solar probably 800W-1000W of panels; a 24V electrical system (because you're starting with new components) and a decent set of traction batteries OR a slightly-bigger-than-needed set of plain old lead acid batteries (and be prepared to replace them more frequently than you might expect). Also get a decent battery monitor - Smartgauge + some kind of amp-hour counter and learn how to use them, what's important to monitor, etc etc. Forget about fancy auto-starting generators, electric cooking, hybrid power station, etc etc

To my eye that lot looks over the top in power terms.

As others have said, there's a lot to go wrong, and when it does, it's going to be expensive.

 

One of the boats in our marina has just had problems with their bow thruster, which among other things, damaged the cabling.

 

The boat is from a very well-known and reputable builder that I will not name here (think Josher bow & riverts!).

 

The engineer that I spoke to told me that the cabling to the bow thruster is actually welding cable.

 

It is also inacessible so they are going to have to cut part of the foredeck out to get access to replace the cable.

 

The owner has recently had a repaint...

 

Shoulndt need to cut the deck to access an inaccessible cable for repair - just lay a completely different cable in a more accessible location.

[OldGoat]

fergyguy, on 06 Jun 2016 - 11:01 AM, said:

i must confess the hybrid bit did bother me but to be fair to the builder he did say without issue he would be happy to install the engine we wanted so i was swayed towards a more robust unit without the toys...in my mind a well tried and tested power unit has to be a less risk option plus if its a straight forward lump then I'm guessing most marine engineers would have come across it before so less hassle fixing faults. I was considering Ventus? unit fitted with high output alternators supply a large battery bank supported by solar. There will be room to install a diesel gennie in the engine compartment they have said not sure what size yet but i must confess being out on the water 365 i like the fact that if ever the engine fails and the sun decides not to shine then at least all those power hungry goodies on board can be kept working. I like the sound of fitting hybrid engine but like mike says they are still in early days and no doubt they will become the way to go once reliability has been sorted and the marine engineers get used to working on them.

 

Now you're beginning to make sense. Beta started offering hybrid systems 10 or more years ago and they never really took off. Cost ?? Fear?? maintainability???

 

Won't make much difference of you switched to Vetus (I assume that's what you meant) - though for me it's Beta every time. They have wide experience of marine units and Kubota is the better engine model for canal use. I'm biased as I grew up - boating wise with their 'crew' and respect them.

 

Paul C, on 06 Jun 2016 - 11:12 AM, said:

I think he identified you were a bit "green" to the world of boating, and tried to sell you the most sophisticated/expensive thing they had.

 

Electric cooking - doesn't make sense on a canal boat.

 

The rest of the kit is propping this up, and costing unnecessary thousands etc.

 

I don't understand why folks get hung up over gas - methinks the distaff side have a fear of the flames, but it's pretty safe if - like anything mechanical - you treat it with respect.

My Management cooks much better stir fries on the boat than she does at home....

 

cuthound, on 06 Jun 2016 - 11:23 AM, said:

I have worked in the critical power industry all of my life, so I am more familiar with this type of thing than most on this forum.

 

Would I have one yet? No, for exactly the reasons MtB says. In my experience, even at a professional level, complicated things and new technology break down more often and take longer to fix, even with full factory support.

 

If you read this forum regularly, you will read tales of relatively simple things stumping some boatyard "engineers".

 

A better (simpler) solution IMHO would be conventional engine (Beta 50?) & hydraulic gearbox for propulsion, 0.5-1kW of solar for summer electricity generation and stand alone silenced 2-5kva generator in engine hole for winter electricity generation.

 

Having said that an electric narrowboat called Watt Ever" passed my mooring the other day when I was cutting back the paint on my boat, ano got almost opposite me before I heard it.

 

Wot he says.

Methinks a 90 is an overkill, 75 - if you must is perhaps better. If you're not going to be cruising hard, then a 50 -powerwise would be adequate.

If you want a quiet boat then have a fresh water cooled system with a wet exhaust and a water separator.

A separate 1500 rpm gen-set also fest water cooled would be a nice extra.

 

I'm ex mainframe IT - and learnt by experience that the KISS principle is invariably the best......

[PD1964]

I think you may now be looking into things too much and may be looking to reinvent the wheel, I've seen this many times with people wanting all the modern new way ahead stuff and they forget their buying a boat not a house. Why do you want an electric cooker and a gas free boat? Is gas so dangerous on a boat? are there boats blowing up every week because of gas? No!

 

Maybe it's time to just sit down and write down what you actually need and what will suffice to meet your requirements, you could end up totally confused and spend way too much money on a boat then you actually need.

[luggsy]

£7 to £10 grand for new batterys

[fergyguy]

pd1964...the specification i started the post with is whats in the builders leaflet NOT what we have decided we want...i prefer gas to cook being a chef for many years of my life i find gas far better..im happy to have a simple engine and simple electrics...yes the boat will come with the toys..washing machine/fridge/freezer and of course most importantly wine chiller lol but then many of you nb guys have all these on board so we are not aiming at something above and beyond what most folk want on board for a comfortable life. yes we will be living on a wide beam and yes we will be cc at a pace and distance which suits us...are we bothered if as dmr put it we don't have a lot in common with our neighbours...really to be frank NO the way we see it if our neighbours choose to live on a nb then thats fine if like us they choose a wb then fine too but surely its the people who live on the boats that matter? if it all comes down to being liked because you choose to live on a nb and not liked because you choose a wb then there is some sad folk living on the water. will we ba able to adapt to life on the water YES without doubt as this is not a flight of fancy for us but something we have wanted to do for many years and something we have allowed plenty of time to research the pros and cons of such a life before getting a builder to start welding the metal. this forum offers a great window into life on the water and we welcome ALL opinions even if its against wbs lol the technical advise you guys offer is brilliant and is a great source of sensible and practical thinking which is what we are looking for.

[RLWP]

wine chiller lol

 

A case in point. A wine chiller needs no power, it's a locker in the floor with the bottles on the baseplate

 

Now, you can pay for a lot more than that and use diesel to run it - it won't be as simple and effective

 

Richard

[Chalky]

Ignoring the long term reliability and availability of spares (likely to be poor) it's also got the potential to be horribly inefficient. If you generate electricity to power a motor to drive the prop its going to be a horribly inefficient compared to driving the prop off the engine/gearbox.

[fergyguy]

good point chalky

[Stedman II]

Ignoring the long term reliability and availability of spares (likely to be poor) it's also got the potential to be horribly inefficient. If you generate electricity to power a motor to drive the prop its going to be a horribly inefficient compared to driving the prop off the engine/gearbox.

That's not how a parallel hybrid works. You can drive the prop straight from the engine, or you can drive it from batteries/electric motor. You choose. Engine just turning the prop is running inefficiently. Powering up the batteries at the same time makes it more efficient. Then once the batteries are full, turn off the engine, and run on batteries - especially if you are just about to do a lock flight,

Edited June 6, 2016 by Stedman II

[fergyguy]

rlwp then we will be having 2 wine chiller on board...one powerless under the floor and one powered in the galley you can never have too much of a good thing lol

rlwp on a serious note we have already advised the builder we wanted underfloor storage for bottles and cans etc..seems to make sense with such a big boat to create where possible plenty of cool storage areas.

[Kapt. Kipper.]

I like the idea of a large wine cellar ....alternative ballast.

[TheBiscuits]

I like the idea of a large wine cellar ....alternative ballast.

 

That would explain why when we drink all the booze the boat seems to get tippier!

[fergyguy]

I was going to ask builder not to put any ballast in our boat and just use wine and beer under floor storage...should be fine as long as we replace a bottle and cans as fast as we drink it lol

[fretman]

have to fire up the system late at night , just for a cuppa,, tell me where you are going to moor, so I can keep away from you,,