illegal to leave hose connected to tap - CRT letter

[Murflynn]

refer to : http://www.spata.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/M33-Hosepipe-use-for-Swimming-Pools.pdf

 

which makes it quite clear that the category 5 risk is about backflow, affecting the water main and other users. It is nothing to do with porous hosepipes contaminating your own supply.

 

"Plumbing fittings in premises which receive water drawn from public water supplies are covered by regulations which prevent the contamination and waste of water. The Water Supply (Water Fittings) Regulations in England, Wales and Northern Ireland and the Scottish Water Byelaws govern the use of hosepipes for normal topping up of swimming pools. Because of the possibility of faecal contamination in particular, the water in a swimming pool is described as fluid category 5 – the highest level of backflow risk."

 

see also

https://www.wras.co.uk/approvals/resources_for_applicants/fittings/installation_requirements/

https://www.eswater.co.uk/livelink/RA0019_4_Hose_Unions___N_DataId_69613200_Version_1.pdf

[magnetman]

Thanks for clarifying that Murflynn. I thought the non return valve in the BS6282 tap would prevent a back flow anyway so came to the conclusion it was about contamination of my tank but I see you are a bit more knowledgeable about it. Anyway with the hose disconnected I should be able to escape jail.

[Chewbacka]

refer to : http://www.spata.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/M33-Hosepipe-use-for-Swimming-Pools.pdf

 

which makes it quite clear that the category 5 risk is about backflow, affecting the water main and other users. It is nothing to do with porous hosepipes contaminating your own supply.

 

"Plumbing fittings in premises which receive water drawn from public water supplies are covered by regulations which prevent the contamination and waste of water. The Water Supply (Water Fittings) Regulations in England, Wales and Northern Ireland and the Scottish Water Byelaws govern the use of hosepipes for normal topping up of swimming pools. Because of the possibility of faecal contamination in particular, the water in a swimming pool is described as fluid category 5 – the highest level of backflow risk."

 

see also

https://www.wras.co.uk/approvals/resources_for_applicants/fittings/installation_requirements/

https://www.eswater.co.uk/livelink/RA0019_4_Hose_Unions___N_DataId_69613200_Version_1.pdf

 

But if you look at section 4.2 in https://www.wras.co.uk/downloads/public_area/publications/general/ign_9-06-02_marinas.pdf/

it states "Hydrocarbons such as fuel oil and other organic chemicals like paint thinners or brush cleaners can permeate through plastic pipes...."

and so whilst the highest concern is for direct liquid contaimination the regs are concerned with diffusion.

[Murflynn]

CRT's letter specifically refers to category 5 contamination, which is definition used for backflow.

 

No-one is denying that a hose pipe may be permeable to hydrocarbons, but that is not the point of the OP.

[Chewbacka]

Agreed but the contamination of the water in the hose that can flow back into the system can be due to contaminants that diffuse through the pipe wall, so even if your hose is securely connected to your own clean water tank, contaminants can enter the system through the pipe wall, hence hose is unfit for a permanent connection. This I think is also covered by the final part of the op's letter.

[Nightwatch]

Not read all the thread, but here goes anyway.

 

Stopped at Sawley Marina yesterday. Paid for pump out. Got token.

 

Saw that there wasn't a hose pipe connected to tap for rinsing. Margaret went back in and was told its health and safety rules, no hose.

 

Did pump out, and went to collect gas bottle that I had paid for, mentioned to chappie that I'm not happy having to use 'my' domestic hose for rinsing toilet tank. Chappie says that it's been law for years. I said this is the first pump out I have used that didn't have a hose available. He replied that no pump out has hoses available. I let my feelings known.

 

I paid over £27 for 13 kg bottle. Has it gone up again. Pump out was £15. No additive nor of course hose pipe available.

 

Anyone else had to use their own hose for pump out?

[Emerald Fox]

At Braunston in March there was no hose on the water tap for washing the Elsan, this was on the towpath a bit westwards of the marina. Another boater told us some French person (typical!) had done a study and it showed hosepipes to be a source of contamination. Well, can't you wash the end of the hosepipe in its own water, and use work gloves when playing with your Elsan?

I'd say it was more unhealthy and hazardous trying to balance an Elsan on one knee trying to get it under the tap... I'd like to empty the contents of our Elsan on the desk of the twerp who has actively been encouraging the removal of hosepipes from sanitary stations.

Does anybody know who this idiot is?

[Nightwatch]

I agree. At elsan points there hasn't been hoses available for I believe about a year or so. I called CRT and was told its a H&S issue.

 

It's more of an issue if there isn't a hose available in my view. I believe it's because some are stolen and they a hacked of at replacing them. Anyone know how long hoses have been available at elsan points and pump out locations. Is there evidence of people getting horrendous diseases from the end of a hose pipe.

 

The pump out at Sawley even has a sign saying the tap not for drinking water. Why's that then?

[Machpoint005]

The pump out at Sawley even has a sign saying the tap not for drinking water. Why's that then?

 

Perceived risk of cross-contamination, I'd say.

[Nightwatch]

Cross contamination from what though? If there's no hose in situ,and each user has to use their own hose, and presumably they take their hose away with them, how does that contaminate the tap?

 

I honestly believe it's a rule that has been brought in after many many years, as a result of inconsiderate users nicking the hoses at such places.

 

I have in the past,removed the hose at pump outs,used my own hose for water and replaced the pump out hose. I am not dead yet. Nearly, but not yet!

 

Martyn (who only uses his holding tank when people visit.) porta potty otherwise.

[twbm]

it's quite easy to imagine inadvertently getting some of the toilet content on one's hands via splashing or spillage. Then you turn the tap on or off and transfer it to that. Then it rains or there's a bit of dew and it washes the offending matter down on to the nozzle.

[john6767]

I don't think there are hoses on any CRT elsans now, perhaps for a year or more. As I mentioned earlier in this thread I was quite surprised to find last month that on the Thames all the elsans do still have a hose attached. The Thames also of course has a fixed hose attached to all the water points.

[magnetman]

I just can't believe people who pinch the 'ose from a bogpump rinseout tap

 

Going back to the 'not drinking water' sign - perhaps it is canal water? Or if not then maybe pumps should be fitted to allow canal water to be used for rinseout with a sign saying "this is canal water - no sh#t"

[Nightwatch]

it's quite easy to imagine inadvertently getting some of the toilet content on one's hands via splashing or spillage. Then you turn the tap on or off and transfer it to that. Then it rains or there's a bit of dew and it washes the offending matter down on to the nozzle.

 

Thats possibly why I always wash water through any tap I use, wherever that tap may be.

 

Martyn

[magnetman]

The Thames also of course has a fixed hose attached to all the water points.

That really is a bit dodgy. There is no way of knowing what people use the hose for. Crap idea IMO

[ditchcrawler]

I don't think there are hoses on any CRT elsans now, perhaps for a year or more. As I mentioned earlier in this thread I was quite surprised to find last month that on the Thames all the elsans do still have a hose attached. The Thames also of course has a fixed hose attached to all the water points.

Well I have seen two this week, one the bottom of SB I can't remember where the other one was. Its the danger of siphoning the contents of the elsan back into the mains. Why Ball Valves in Cisterns have a vacuum break etc.

[Jerra]

Well I have seen two this week, one the bottom of SB I can't remember where the other one was. Its the danger of siphoning the contents of the elsan back into the mains. Why Ball Valves in Cisterns have a vacuum break etc.

I thought that regulations now required a non return valve in the system to prevent this on any tap.

[Murflynn]

I thought that regulations now required a non return valve in the system to prevent this on any tap.

they do, but that still does not allow a hose to be left connected except in exceptional circumstances, which I believe should be approved by the water company.

[Jerra]

they do, but that still does not allow a hose to be left connected except in exceptional circumstances, which I believe should be approved by the water company.

If the valve stops the problem when the hose is in use (including while the follow is stopped to connect and disconnect) why doesn't it stop the problem when the hose isn't in use?

 

I can't see the logic.

[Emerald Fox]

it's quite easy to imagine inadvertently getting some of the toilet content on one's hands via splashing or spillage. Then you turn the tap on or off and transfer it to that. Then it rains or there's a bit of dew and it washes the offending matter down on to the nozzle.

 

The Elsan cassette you're trying to trying to balance on your knee and rinse for the first time falls off splashing the brownish liquidy slop all over the place. Much more hygienic than touching a hose that you're going to use for flushing out an Elsan cassette.

Talking of hygiene, will you lot stop coughing and sneezing in aeroplanes and at the doctor's surgery, thanks.

then maybe pumps should be fitted to allow canal water to be used for rinseout with a sign saying "this is canal water - no sh#t"

 

oh no, we just want to rinse the cassettes with real water, not dissolve them like in the movie Alien.

[Murflynn]

If the valve stops the problem when the hose is in use (including while the follow is stopped to connect and disconnect) why doesn't it stop the problem when the hose isn't in use?

 

I can't see the logic.

since when has a layman's idea of logic affected the laws of the country?

 

anyway, a scientist will probably tell you that if there is zero pressure in the main, for whatever reason, then the non-return valve may not seal properly, and back contamination may occur.

[Jerra]

since when has a layman's idea of logic affected the laws of the country?

 

anyway, a scientist will probably tell you that if there is zero pressure in the main, for whatever reason, then the non-return valve may not seal properly, and back contamination may occur.

Surely that would need the hose to be full, which it wouldn't be unless in use. The regs don't I assume say hoses can't be used.

[Murflynn]

Surely that would need the hose to be full, which it wouldn't be unless in use. The regs don't I assume say hoses can't be used.

ER ....... the committee approving the water regulations has to safeguard the health of the nation. Do you expect them to assume that you will always be a good citizen and will make sure that your hose will always be empty?

 

Anyway, there are many situations where your hose will always be partly full when not in use.

 

I gave an example of what can happen in an earlier thread - it is a real issue, not an imaginary one.

[Alan Saunders]

since when has a layman's idea of logic affected the laws of the country?

 

anyway, a scientist will probably tell you that if there is zero pressure in the main, for whatever reason, then the non-return valve may not seal properly, and back contamination may occur.

Precisely, the non-return valve is an additional, cheap precaution to avoid contamination but it is not fail-safe.

 

Forty or fifty years ago, in the 1960's French main water supplies were infamous for carrying nasty bugs like Salmonella. We had a demonstration of their problem when we arrived at a Gite in the early evening. Desperate for a pot of tea I turned on a tap, it hissed but produced no water, I located the water meter and it was running backwards! Every evening when a milking parlour attached to the same water main drew large quantities of water the supply to the French Cottage 'sucked'.

 

UK mains water supplies have been intrinsically safe for many years but we must take all possible precautions to keep them so. In particular, not having a hose that could dangle into a shower tray, Elsan disposal or canal!

 

I have 12" of hose that I temporarily attach to the the flush tap of disposal points to ensure that my porta-pottie is clean and I leave the disposal point cleaner than I found it.

 

Alan

[tidal]

Are we still talking about this?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And has anyone mentioned using the right grade of hose for different roles?

 

 

 

 

 

*Having lit blue touch paper, retires immediately*