Canal or Leisure Park?

[MisterDave]

 

the accusation made in the article you posted is that the CaRT are actively encouraging cyclists to speed on towpaths. That accusation is based on nothing more than someone at the CaRT having described cycling as a "sporting activity". I think it's fair enough to describe that as a "manufactured scandal".

According to my dictionary, sporting means used in or associated with sport. Sport means an athletic activity involving skill or prowess and often of a competitive nature.

 

I know of no cycling activities of a competitive nature which could be safely carried out on the towing path without detriment to other users. The simple act of using a bicycle on the towing path requires little skill and no prowess. Perhaps there's some new "slowest cycling" sport I'm not aware of, or perhaps the scandal is not "manufactured" at all but is an entirely natural reaction to some inflammatory wording.

[KarlosMacronius]

The new signage has been rolled out in London. I believe its an old initiative which fell by the wayside somewhat that they are dusting off and wheeling out again with increased impetus.

 

 

 

 

Edited grammar.

Edited June 5, 2015 by KarlosMacronius

[John V]

I'm sorry Jenlyn but I think it is "manufactured" anti CRT or at least "spun" that way.

Yesterday I was walking on a sea wall top footpath (fairly slowly as I am recuperating from an operation) and was very narrowly missed by a cyclist travelling at very high speed. If I had been knocked off the path I wouldn't have fallen into a soft canal but down steep stone 10 foot bank..

This footpath is very clearly marked "NO CYCLING" both on regularly posted signs plus painted signs on the footpath itself. This by the way was not some rogue "yoof" on a mountain bike but a lycra clad idiot on a racing bike. This cannot be taken as "the council is encouraging speeding cyclists" Yes they do encourage cycling but not regardless to everyone else.

[Tony Brooks]

As I witnessed a cyclist riding down the Caen Hill flight so fast he was leaving the ground over the "ridge" at each lock and I witnesses bunches of "well equipped sports cyclist racing down the Western K&A towpath under BW this is a far from new problem. As far as I can see the present situation is that either CaRT have no powers or they have no intention of enforcing safe riding on mixed use towpaths. It seems there is incontrovertible proof that certain cyclists have been riding afr too fast from the data on the website people have talked about (the time trial one, not NBW) so IF and its a big if, CaRt have the powers they should use that site as evidence and prosecute a few speed merchants. I rather suspect they do not have the powers and have no intention of trying to get them, hence the pathetic "education" excuses.

 

Do we say those who break the road speed limits should en excused because they are idiot individuals? Do we say the Police should not chase criminals because they are just individuals? I see no difference with those riding faster than 3 or 4 mph on the towpath when walkers are about.

 

In fact seeing how long the warnings about speeding cyclists and the potential danger they are has been running I would rather like to see someone help the poor lady sue CaRT for negligence in that they have taken no effective action to mitigate the danger. I would also like to see the HSE take a greater interest.

[Wanted]

Thank gawd for poetry, I don't think I would be quite so considerate without it...

 

I am now in now doubt that after I ting twice and be nice I should now share the space by dropping my pace.

 

As much as I applaud anything that helps, can you just imagine the meetings where they came up with this? Awful!

[Machpoint005]

An inconsiderate pillock is an inconsiderate pillock, regardless of any poetic initiatives or warning notices.

[Steilsteven]

According to my dictionary, sporting means used in or associated with sport. Sport means an athletic activity involving skill or prowess and often of a competitive nature.

 

 

Like darts or snooker

[dmr]

In the past 4 years we have personally witnessed three significant cycling accidents. In two cases it was just good luck that only slight injuries were sustained.

In one case an ambulance should have been called but the victim was very opposed to this and by good fortune passing boaters where able to provide suitable assistance.

 

If every full time boater has a similar record then that makes a lot of accidents.

 

Two of the accidents involved cyclists failing to dismount/negotiating bridge holes at excessive speed.

Did feel a bit sorry for the last one, he went in (full submersion) right opposite a crowded pub garden. He came back about ten minutes later and had to go in again when he realised his wallet was still in there!

 

..............Dave

[magictime]

It's not a new initiative. It was first powepointed to me at the user group forum in Birmingham Feb 2014.

So you have not seen any of these signs you speak of either?

 

The Sharing Towpaths consultation was launched in March 2014, with a report following in August and the new Towpath Code being launched this February. Whether or not some of that signage was in use last February, it's still fairly early days for the whole project when one considers that infrastructure such as signage tends to be installed/updated across the system over a period of years rather than months.

 

Unfortunately I haven't been boating since last summer, so I can't comment on the appearance of any new signs.

 

According to my dictionary, sporting means used in or associated with sport.

 

Quite. So, someone competing in a 4x400m relay race is participating in a "sport", and someone jogging casually on a canal towpath is engaging in an associated or related "sporting activity". If the CaRT's Sports Participation Manager started talking about an initiative to get local people off the couch and engaging in beginner-friendly sporting activities such as running, a reasonable person would assume he meant forms of running suited to towpaths (e.g. jogging) rather than competitive forms of running presenting a danger to other towpath users (e.g. 4x400m relays). As far as I can see, the same goes for cycling.

[Henhouse]

 

 

In fact seeing how long the warnings about speeding cyclists and the potential danger they are has been running I would rather like to see someone help the poor lady sue CaRT for negligence in that they have taken no effective action to mitigate the danger. I would also like to see the HSE take a greater interest.

 

It is no more the fault of CaRT, than it would be to blame DVLA when an idiot drives his BMW up a tree.

 

I have every sympathy for the injured lady, and would be delighted to see the cyclist prosecuted, ( or better still birched).

 

However, this is about individuals having personal responsibility for their behaviour. The blame lies wholly with the cyclist.

[PaulG]

According to my dictionary, sporting means used in or associated with sport. Sport means an athletic activity involving skill or prowess and often of a competitive nature.

 

I know of no cycling activities of a competitive nature which could be safely carried out on the towing path without detriment to other users. The simple act of using a bicycle on the towing path requires little skill and no prowess. Perhaps there's some new "slowest cycling" sport I'm not aware of, or perhaps the scandal is not "manufactured" at all but is an entirely natural reaction to some inflammatory wording.IMH

IMHO non-competitive leisure cycling IS a sport.

There are many sports that are not necessarily competitive. Mountaineering, for example (although there are rock climbing competitions).

You are perfectly right, the towpath is not the place for competitive cycling.

However, the fact that one of their officials described cycling as a sport does not mean that CRT are encouraging cyclists to speed.

[jenlyn]

 

The Sharing Towpaths consultation was launched in March 2014, with a report following in August and the new Towpath Code being launched this February. Whether or not some of that signage was in use last February, it's still fairly early days for the whole project when one considers that infrastructure such as signage tends to be installed/updated across the system over a period of years rather than months.

 

Unfortunately I haven't been boating since last summer, so I can't comment on the appearance of any new signs.

 

 

 

(sighs)

[MisterDave]

 

someone competing in a 4x400m relay race is participating in a "sport", and someone jogging casually on a canal towpath is engaging in an associated or related "sporting activity". If the CaRT's Sports Participation Manager started talking about an initiative to get local people off the couch and engaging in beginner-friendly sporting activities such as running, a reasonable person would assume he meant forms of running suited to towpaths (e.g. jogging) rather than competitive forms of running presenting a danger to other towpath users (e.g. 4x400m relays). As far as I can see, the same goes for cycling.

 

Someone jogging casually on a towpath is not a sporting activity, there is no sport with "casual jogging" in it, there is no element of competition, and no skill or prowess are required. People here are trying to change the definition of words to suit their agendas. Casual jogging can be beneficial to health and could make the participant better at various sports, but that does not make it a sport or sporting activity per se (unless we're going to start describing eating healthy food as a sporting activity as well!). The same can be said of casual or commuter cycling.

 

I believe the CRT staffer misspoke, used the wrong word, maybe has a malformed concept of what sport is. The misunderstanding arising from this is inevitable, especially in an environment where so many people have already been endangered and injured by cyclists, an environment where so many experienced users are counting down to the first fatality and hoping they're not "it".

 

The only person I've seen using a towing path safely for a "sporting activity" was one guy sprinting back and forth on a 100m stretch of empty path somewhere above Marple, stopping at each turnaround to do press-ups, sit-ups, and vigorous shadow boxing whilst his trainer made sure he didn't get in any other path user's way by moving him every time any one got near.

 

 

There are many sports that are not necessarily competitive. Mountaineering, for example (although there are rock climbing competitions).

You are perfectly right, the towpath is not the place for competitive cycling.

However, the fact that one of their officials described cycling as a sport does not mean that CRT are encouraging cyclists to speed.

 

There are many sports which are not necessarily competitive, however the element of competition in these has been replaced by expanded elements of skill and prowess. Testing skill and prowess on a towing path is likely to be as problematic as competing to be fastest.

 

The towpath is not the place for competitive cycling, running, or competitive anything much more aggressive than competitive dominoes. It's way too dangerous a place to be testing physical abilities to the limit, there are better and safer places for that.

[magictime]

(sighs)

 

I've lost track of what we're disagreeing about here.

 

I don't think it's fair to suggest, as that article you posted does, that the CaRT are encouraging cyclists to speed on towpaths.

 

I also don't think it's fair to suggest, as you did earlier in the thread, that the CaRT are simply ignoring the issue (since they have recently been working on that new policy).

 

I certainly don't think it's fair to suggest that talking to me is like banging your head against a brick wall, when I've responded to your points thoughtfully and been clear that I agree with you that the CaRT should be made aware of dangers/incidents and take action where practical to prevent future problems.

 

If all you're really saying is that the CaRT should be doing more to address the problem of speeding cyclists, and more quickly, you might well be right. But I do think there should be an acceptance that they're not ultimately responsible for the behaviour of irresponsible towpath users, and that improving infrastructure like signage, barriers and lighting is inevitably going to be a slow, ongoing task.

[John V]

 

I've lost track of what we're disagreeing about here.

 

I don't think it's fair to suggest, as that article you posted does, that the CaRT are encouraging cyclists to speed on towpaths.

 

I also don't think it's fair to suggest, as you did earlier in the thread, that the CaRT are simply ignoring the issue (since they have recently been working on that new policy).

 

I certainly don't think it's fair to suggest that talking to me is like banging your head against a brick wall, when I've responded to your points thoughtfully and been clear that I agree with you that the CaRT should be made aware of dangers/incidents and take action where practical to prevent future problems.

 

If all you're really saying is that the CaRT should be doing more to address the problem of speeding cyclists, and more quickly, you might well be right. But I do think there should be an acceptance that they're not ultimately responsible for the behaviour of irresponsible towpath users, and that improving infrastructure like signage, barriers and lighting is inevitably going to be a slow, ongoing task.

 

[magictime]

Someone jogging casually on a towpath is not a sporting activity, there is no sport with "casual jogging" in it, there is no element of competition, and no skill or prowess are required. People here are trying to change the definition of words to suit their agendas. Casual jogging can be beneficial to health and could make the participant better at various sports, but that does not make it a sport or sporting activity per se (unless we're going to start describing eating healthy food as a sporting activity as well!). The same can be said of casual or commuter cycling.

 

I believe the CRT staffer misspoke, used the wrong word, maybe has a malformed concept of what sport is. The misunderstanding arising from this is inevitable, especially in an environment where so many people have already been endangered and injured by cyclists, an environment where so many experienced users are counting down to the first fatality and hoping they're not "it".

 

The only person I've seen using a towing path safely for a "sporting activity" was one guy sprinting back and forth on a 100m stretch of empty path somewhere above Marple, stopping at each turnaround to do press-ups, sit-ups, and vigorous shadow boxing whilst his trainer made sure he didn't get in any other path user's way by moving him every time any one got near.

 

I can hardly deny that the CaRT's choice of words left them open to misunderstanding, since it clearly has. Still, from the context, I think it's clear that they're talking about an initiative to get youth clubs etc. involved in physical activities like cycling and canoeing, not about using canals and towpaths as venues for competitive sports.

[kris88]

In my opinion CRT are encouraging cyclist to use the towpath in greater numbers, and locally they have resurfaced the towpath with a surface that enables cyclists to go faster. Therefore they have some responsibility. Locally it has been a fiasco actually. They put a Tarmac surface down, had hundreds of complaints about speeding cyclists.

Decided to tar a surface coating of chipings to the Tarmac. This wasn't done right, got hundreds of complaints from cyclists about falling off etc.

now the whole surface is being ripped up and laid again. Good job it was funded by European grant money. I await to see the results.

[mark99]

Cyclists must be laughing up their sweaty lycras. All these superhighways put in for their recklessness at no cost to their coffers. Personally I'd like them all restricted to boneshakers or penny farthings on the towpath. At least we the mugs paying could get some entertainment.

Edited June 5, 2015 by mark99

[KenK]

I see on the Dark side today an email claiming that drawing pins had been scattered along sections of the towpath in the Cambridge area as a deterrent to cyclists, something which had also taken place in Manchester.

 

If true it is a sad reflection on the people responsible. Some cyclists are inconsiderate but other people use towpaths, most wear shoes but dogs don't.

 

Ken

[GUMPY]

I find a 6ft length of 2x2 across the towpath banked either side with ash makes a good speed hump.

Slows the lycra brigade very well

 

Another thing if holding the boat on a centre rope and a cyclist approaces I just step back into the hedge to give them room to pass, whist of course holding the boat into the bank

Edited June 5, 2015 by Loddon

[Tony Brooks]

 

It is no more the fault of CaRT, than it would be to blame DVLA when an idiot drives his BMW up a tree.

 

I have every sympathy for the injured lady, and would be delighted to see the cyclist prosecuted, ( or better still birched).

 

However, this is about individuals having personal responsibility for their behaviour. The blame lies wholly with the cyclist.

 

No, its about CaRT not being capable of dealing with such idiots. I think the BMW driver could well be answering questions from the Police but CaRT seem unable to take actions against the individuals. I know in this case he rode off but just maybe if CaRT had taken action against some of those recording their times on that website then the individual may have thought better of speeding along the towpath.

 

CaRT know there is a problem, CaRT do not seem to be taking effective action, CaRT seem to be negligent in not taking action.

[kris88]

 

CaRT know there is a problem, CaRT do not seem to be taking effective action, CaRT seem to be negligent in not taking action.

In fact it could be said they are failing in there duty of care. Hence liable.

Regards kris

[John V]

In fact it could be said they are failing in there duty of care. Hence liable.

Regards kris

 

I don't see how CRT could be failing in care. Surely they only need to ensure that the "environment" for users is safe. Not to protect against rule breakers and idiots. people acting in a fashion that endangers the safety of others is surely a matter for the police. I have seen an idiot riding a scramble bike along the towpath in central London, I very much doubt that any regulations would stop brainless gits.

[magictime]

 

No, its about CaRT not being capable of dealing with such idiots. I think the BMW driver could well be answering questions from the Police but CaRT seem unable to take actions against the individuals. I know in this case he rode off but just maybe if CaRT had taken action against some of those recording their times on that website then the individual may have thought better of speeding along the towpath.

 

CaRT know there is a problem, CaRT do not seem to be taking effective action, CaRT seem to be negligent in not taking action.

 

The CaRT can issue guidelines, put up signs, erect barriers, lay new surfaces etc., so I'm not going to say there's nothing they can do about the problem - but 'taking action' against cyclists who record times on a website? How? What sort of action? Even if the cyclists had committed some crime (which as far as I know they haven't), that would be a matter for the police, not the CaRT.

[alan_fincher]

Cyclists must be laughing up their sweaty lycras. All these superhighways put in for their recklessness at no cost to their coffers. Personally I'd like them all restricted to boneshakers or penny farthings on the towpath. At least we the mugs paying could get some entertainment.

 

But we generally are not the mugs paying (or at least not to CRT).

 

Nearly all these tow-path improvements are externally funded by bodies other than CRT. This is why it is often not the worst bits of tow-path that get improved, (e.g. Leighton Buzzard, where the local funding is only available if used in Leighton Buzzard, otherwise not on offer).

 

The Sports Participation Manager, Joe Sammon, is from my understanding a fixed term contract post funded by something like (from memory) Sport England, so again not funded I think from CRT coffers.

 

The article is the usual anti CRT spin from Allan Richards - why are CRT encouraging speeding cyclists by such an appointment? They are not, of course.