Dispute at Pillings

[George94]

 

Now you're just being a complete arsehole, Dave.

 

I didn't mention anything about "class action" and there is no reason other than your jingoism to drag my name into it.

 

It's now time to invoke one of my primary forum rules - "Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level then beat you with experience."

 

Please, take your small mind and your pettiness elsewhere.

 

I do appreciate the effort you have made to translate the American ass, which can have two meanings, into the Anglo-Saxon arse, which only has one.

 

Dave, this is clearly not a man to be trifled with. And for the record, I agree with him on the Common Law. Where our legal systems have diverged is primarily in statute law. An English court is still able to take a precedent from an American court, and the reverse is also true, though nowadays it happens infrequently.

[scrunch]

Just want to say what an amazing debate this is , cannot comment really as far more knowledgable people have answered or said a lot more than I could, just really feel for the moorers and really hope it all works out for them.

[NigelMoore]

They would be available ----- with a crane & lorry.

 

 

I might agree with you, certainly carlt would, the question is whether CaRT would.

 

MtB’s suggestion [#1409] that the boat licences would be honoured for the remaining term of the current licences is hopefully correct, but that does not address the situation with those who have paid for longer periods of mooring availability.

Aren't the long term leases for a car-parking space though? Not strictly for a marina berth.

 

That is only an artifice; the leases were essentially of land with mooring rights attached, so far as I can work out from what has been said. So the boats will have been licensed on the basis that those agreements conferred a legitimate place where the boats could be moored for licensing purposes.

[Dank]

Just to expand on Dor and Carlts query about leasing car parking spaces with mooring rights.

It has to be a piece of land. you cant lease a piece of water - it moves about you know

[mayalld]

QMH/QMP/PLM are effectively the same group people regardless of the official directorships as far as I can make out.

That is true, but not relevant.

[Willber G]

That is true, but not relevant.

It was to the discussion I was having at the time.

[mayalld]

It was to the discussion I was having at the time.

OK my response may have been a trifle glib, but how is if relevant?

 

In terms of our view of the situation, of course it matters. In terms of the way it plays out, it cannot have an effect

[MtB]

Just to expand on Dor and Carlts query about leasing car parking spaces with mooring rights.

It has to be a piece of land. you cant lease a piece of water - it moves about you know

 

No, but you CAN buy or lease the plot of land underneath the water. A plot of land is still a plot of land even if you have happen to have dug away the topsoil and allowed it to flood.

 

MtB

[carlt]

Just to expand on Dor and Carlts query about leasing car parking spaces with mooring rights.

It has to be a piece of land. you cant lease a piece of water - it moves about you know

The land beneath the water doesn't move about though, hence the ability to own, buy, sell and, I imagine, lease a canal.

 

The reason they lease the car park, rather than the mooring is more to do with planning dodges, I would have thought.

[MtB]

The land beneath the water doesn't move about though, hence the ability to own, buy, sell and, I imagine, lease a canal.

 

The reason they lease the car park, rather than the mooring is more to do with planning dodges, I would have thought.

 

Or more likely, to do with avoiding paying NAA of the mooring fees associated with the mooring. What is 9% of nothing?

 

MtB

[Willber G]

OK my response may have been a trifle glib, but how is if relevant?

 

In terms of our view of the situation, of course it matters. In terms of the way it plays out, it cannot have an effect

It was in response to the second part of this post:

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=63317&page=71#entry1224293

 

My initial point was that CRT may welcome a compromise that would minimise their losses (and the impact on the boaters involved). I have no way of knowing it it is true or even legally feasible.

[Midnight Rider]

 

Or more likely, to do with avoiding paying NAA of the mooring fees associated with the mooring. What is 9% of nothing?

 

MtB

Don't understand that. The leasehold berths would be included in the total number of berths in the marina. & charged at 9%

[NigelMoore]

An English court is still able to take a precedent from an American court, and the reverse is also true, though nowadays it happens infrequently.

 

Not that infrequently. All of the ex-colonial nations adopting the English common law consistently refer back to the parent body of precedent, and conversely, especially where the offspring judiciaries have more extensive explorations of particular branches than does British jurisprudence, the British courts rely on those findings as persuasive here.

 

The American property/riparian cases in particular, are more extensive than here, for example, and I relied heavily on American and Canadian case law when in front of the Appeal Court at the end of 2012. The validity of that case law was accepted without demur as persuasive argument. The relevant British case law simply did not contain cases that addressed the particular fine points at issue.

[johnlillie]

_{just a thought regarding the alleged break up of the Steadman marriage........ I wonder if that is another scam, and Diane (the former mrs Steadman) is about to revert to her maiden name, and buy up/restart qmp or qmh, or whichever it is that is liquidated?..........}

[MtB]

Don't understand that. The leasehold berths would be included in the total number of berths in the marina. & charged at 9%

 

Ok I'll spell it out.

 

NAA is charged at the rate of 9% of the mooring fee associated with each berth, occupied or not.

 

If the mooring fee associated with a berth is zero, then 9% of zero is due, whether or not the berth is occupied.

 

If the berth is one of those given 'free' with a car parking space, there is no mooring fee so 9% of the mooring fee of zero is due.

 

Scams'R'us, in my opinion.

 

 

MtB

[Dangerous Dave]

 

Or more likely, to do with avoiding paying NAA of the mooring fees associated with the mooring. What is 9% of nothing?

 

MtB

 

I think the car dodging of planning is more likely as putting planning in for a PRIVATE MARINA with access via a PUBLIC BRIDLE PATH,but actually turning the site into PUBLIC PARK has been the idea after the Steadmans came on the scene

[MtB]

 

I think the car dodging of planning is more likely as putting planning in for a PRIVATE MARINA with access via a PUBLIC BRIDLE PATH,but actually turning the site into PUBLIC PARK has been the idea after the Steadmans came on the scene

 

Eh?

[NigelMoore]

 

Or more likely, to do with avoiding paying NAA of the mooring fees associated with the mooring. What is 9% of nothing?

 

MtB

 

That thought had occurred to me, but as all the boats in the marina were required to be licensed, necessitating the acceptance by CaRT that any boat moored by virtue of the car park leases was occupying a valid mooring, the scenario could not possibly play out, surely?

[Midnight Rider]

 

Ok I'll spell it out.

 

NAA is charged at the rate of 9% of the mooring fee associated with each berth, occupied or not.

 

If the mooring fee associated with a berth is zero, then 9% of zero is due, whether or not the berth is occupied.

 

If the berth is one of those given 'free' with a car parking space, there is no mooring fee so 9% of the mooring fee of zero is due.

 

Scams'R'us, in my opinion.

 

 

 

Now I have no idea how they work it out, but my guess would be that they take the number of berths from the marina plan & work it out from that. They can't do it on total pontoon lengths because most of the berths at Pillings are finger pontoons.

[furnessvale]

Now I have no idea how they work it out, but my guess would be that they take the number of berths from the marina plan & work it out from that. They can't do it on total pontoon lengths because most of the berths at Pillings are finger pontoons.

I would imagine CRT come to an agreed figure with the marina operator.

 

If an enterprising operator is able to squeeze a few more feet of boat into the marina after that, best of luck to him, provided, of course, it is not achieved by undeclared post agreement extensions.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[Dangerous Dave]

_{just a thought regarding the alleged break up of the Steadman marriage........ I wonder if that is another scam, and Diane (the former mrs Steadman) is about to revert to her maiden name, and buy up/restart qmp or qmh, or whichever it is that is liquidated?..........}

 

 

I don't think that they would go to that extreme, as at the end of this situation ..What use is a duff marina that had a bad reputation- and now has a serious bad reputation to anyone!

 

What will probably happen is the marina will be sealed off and boats that are left are people who like myself don't so much cruise but liveaboard on a boat..The fantastic cafe will be as i think your relation said is so successful already and Paul Lilies's dream of a swanky eating place/ penthouse/floating hotels like his chums have will come true.

 

Thing is i don't think that was the intention of the planning application(you should know)forwarded back in the mid 2000's..

The fly in the ointment is the access Road which is a Public Bridle Path ..Which if not used as private access for residents of property owners down Flesh Hovel Lane will be termed as a mis use of a bridle path..

 

It would only take for the other residents down there to complain and for public users of the lane who use the bridle path for its purpose !!

[RichardH]

Has a thread ever done this many pages before?

[wrigglefingers]

Yes, but not since the days of John Orentas I think.

 

Although the Fridaaay Beeeer thread went on for years and the UnStable Bar even longer. This one is a mere upstart by comparison.

[Pillingsmoorer]

As regard to the people on here who want to make negative remarks towards Paul Lillie, firstly I would like you to get your facts straight about his parents leaving the marina;

1, There are always 2 sides to a story and if anyone knows John Lillie they will know he has rather a violent temper and is not a reasonable man. So don't believe all you hear about how and why he left the marina after upsetting many boaters and many members of his own family-who at present none of his 3 children speak to him anymore regarding issues with him so work that out for all yourselves. (Personally I feel sorry for his wife who has to put up with his temper tantrums still at he age of 68 years old).

2, Paul did spend many hours and much hard to work both in setting up the business from day one and he has been successful in keeping things running smoothly after many set backs and many "trolls" trying to interfere and saying negative, untrue comments about Pilling's Lock Marina. Paul now employs many very competent and helpful staff here- a few being his family members who all work well in the successful running of the business. (And 1 Law student who has been an asset to the Marina).

3, The majority of the Marina's residents and users are all very happy with the service and they all clearly have very happy, eventful lives so therefore do not need to post silly comments on this Forum. (And they have been very supportive towards Paul).

4, The publicity has majorly benefited the Boat House restaurant which continues to thrive even in this economic crisis plus the boat sales and boat hire and apartment rentals have also continued to increase immensely.

So lets Stick the facts and the subject being the CRT fee and stop getting personal and making un-called for negative, untrue comments on here and all go out and get a life, because surely you all have way too much time on your hands and don't have much of a life if you are continually posting unnecessary comments on here.

 

If any of you have any other doubts please come down the the Marina for yourself and make your own judgments, and please ignore to few "trolls" on here who seriously have issues and need to get over their bitterness and try and say something positive in life! is it a wonder why you have had bad experiences with attitudes like that?

 

Happy Boating!

As regard to the people on here who want to make negative remarks towards Paul Lillie, firstly I would like you to get your facts straight about his parents leaving the marina;

1, There are always 2 sides to a story and if anyone knows John Lillie they will know he has rather a violent temper and is not a reasonable man. So don't believe all you hear about how and why he left the marina after upsetting many boaters and many members of his own family-who at present none of his 3 children speak to him anymore regarding issues with him so work that out for all yourselves. (Personally I feel sorry for his wife who has to put up with his temper tantrums still at he age of 68 years old).

2, Paul did spend many hours and much hard to work both in setting up the business from day one and he has been successful in keeping things running smoothly after many set backs and many "trolls" trying to interfere and saying negative, untrue comments about Pilling's Lock Marina. Paul now employs many very competent and helpful staff here- a few being his family members who all work well in the successful running of the business. (And 1 Law student who has been an asset to the Marina).

3, The majority of the Marina's residents and users are all very happy with the service and they all clearly have very happy, eventful lives so therefore do not need to post silly comments on this Forum. (And they have been very supportive towards Paul).

4, The publicity has majorly benefited the Boat House restaurant which continues to thrive even in this economic crisis plus the boat sales and boat hire and apartment rentals have also continued to increase immensely.

So lets Stick the facts and the subject being the CRT fee and stop getting personal and making un-called for negative, untrue comments on here and all go out and get a life, because surely you all have way too much time on your hands and don't have much of a life if you are continually posting unnecessary comments on here.

 

If any of you have any other doubts please come down the the Marina for yourself and make your own judgments, and please ignore to few "trolls" on here who seriously have issues and need to get over their bitterness and try and say something positive in life! is it a wonder why you have had bad experiences with attitudes like that?

 

Happy Boating!

Just read this I very well put. Nice to here some positive comments and couldn't agree more!!

[Coojay]

Hi All

as a leisure moorer at Pillings I thought I had better found out what is going on! apart from an email inviting us to the open meeting I had had to find out everything else from the forum or local news media. would appreciate any of the liveaboards at pillings letting me know how many boats have now left and what is going on - cannot get down there until Saturday

thanks