Another CO death on a boat

[frangar]

Hi

 

Just seen this on BBC website

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-21993924

 

Timely reminder to check those CO alarms....

 

Stay safe onboard tonight.

 

Cheers

 

Gareth

[alan_fincher]

Timely reminder to check those CO alarms....

 

Stay safe onboard tonight.

Particularly those with their stoves cranked up high fighting the shivers of the "Banter Lurgi"......

[junior]

Particularly those with their stoves cranked up high fighting the shivers of the "Banter Lurgi"......

 

 

For the uneducated (me), what should one do with a solid fuel stove to ensure you are safe?

[Rob-M]

At a minimum have a carbon monoxide alarm and make sure it is working.

[Grace and Favour]

For the uneducated (me), what should one do with a solid fuel stove to ensure you are safe?

 

 

At a minimum have a carbon monoxide alarm and make sure it is working.

Burn good quality fuel (and don't burn green or wet wood)

Make sure your flue is swept regularly, (I clean mine every two months)

And make sure all the flue connections are totally tight/leak free

Check to make sure the stove door (and glass if it's fitted) have good seals (fire-rope)

and never run your stove with the door open

[lynalldisocvery]

Be terrible for the male survivor.

 

 

Lynall

[Rob@BSSOffice]

For the uneducated (me), what should one do with a solid fuel stove to ensure you are safe?

 

This may help www.boatsafetyscheme.org/stay-safe/solid-fuel-stoves/carbon-monoxide-stoves or its associated links

 

Regards

Rob

Edited April 1, 2013 by Rob@BSSOffice

[Mac of Cygnet]

Burn good quality fuel (and don't burn green or wet wood)

 

With respect, I don't agree with this (and could have put it more strongly) with regard to CO production. Green or wet wood may not burn very well, but not only is less likely to produce CO (because it requires a better air supply to burn at all) but may in fact give advance warning of stove leakages (because it produces more smoke) than smokeless fuel, which can be an invisible killer in a faulty stove.

 

And yes, I have read Rob's link referring to green/wet wood, which condemns it purely on the basis of causing flue blockage, which it would only do in the long term, with no flue cleaning.

 

In fact, 99% of CO poisoning (including me, once)is caused by faulty gas appliances. CO poisoning by purely wood-burning stoves is very rare indeed.

[MtB]

According to the BBC we don't know for sure it was CO poisoning. The victims are reported to have been taken to hospital suffering from "breathing difficulties". Breathing difficulty is not on the list of normally reported symptoms of CO poisoning.

 

MtB

[Grace and Favour]

With respect, I don't agree with this (and could have put it more strongly) with regard to CO production. Green or wet wood may not burn very well, but not only is less likely to produce CO (because it requires a better air supply to burn at all) but may in fact give advance warning of stove leakages (because it produces more smoke) than smokeless fuel, which can be an invisible killer in a faulty stove.

 

And yes, I have read Rob's link referring to green/wet wood, which condemns it purely on the basis of causing flue blockage, which it would only do in the long term, with no flue cleaning.

 

In fact, 99% of CO poisoning (including me, once)is caused by faulty gas appliances. CO poisoning by purely wood-burning stoves is very rare indeed.

 

I answered OP's query regarding using a solid fuel stove safety.

 

I didn't confuse the issue with gas appliances, faulty or otherwise., though I'm pleased to note that you survived your dangerous experience with a potentially fatal CO poisoning

[Rob@BSSOffice]

In fact, 99% of CO poisoning (including me, once)is caused by faulty gas appliances. CO poisoning by purely wood-burning stoves is very rare indeed.

 

The majority of CO incidents are caused by combustion engine exhaust fumes or solid fuel stoves (not sure whether they are mineral, multifuel or wood-burners)

 

Very roughly speaking - a third each. The remaining third would be other sources including gas.

 

However no carbon fuel is risk free. For example, last week it was exhaust fumes from a diesel heater that hospitalised a family of four.

 

We await to see if CO is confirmed in the Windemere incident and if so, what exactly was the cause and why.

[Mac of Cygnet]

The majority of CO incidents are caused by combustion engine exhaust fumes or solid fuel stoves (not sure whether they are mineral, multifuel or wood-burners)

 

Very roughly speaking - a third each. The remaining third would be other sources including gas.

 

However no carbon fuel is risk free. For example, last week it was exhaust fumes from a diesel heater that hospitalised a family of four.

 

 

I apologise for the 99%. In fact the figures are as follows for deaths from CO poisoning in the UK for the 15 years 1995 - 2010

 

Solid fuel - 31% Gas - 54% Petrol (ie engine exhausts) - 11% This from the HSE report to the House of Lords on CO poisoning deaths.

 

It is extraordinally difficult to find figures for CO poisoning due to purely wood-burning stoves. In fact one manufacturer of woodburners claims:

 

From our observations in the stove industry for the past several years, very few if any deaths occur from wood burning stoves at all.

 

You may think 'he would say that, wouldn't he?' But I can only find one reported CO death from a woodburner in recent years. You, being in the business, may have better figures, of course. Yes, I do have a CO alarm even though I burn only wood.

[Graham Davis]

There were several CO deaths last year caused by people taking BBQ's, or their remains, inside tents and/or caravans.

Don't know which catagory those fit into.

[Rob@BSSOffice]

Solid fuel - 31% Gas - 54% Petrol (ie engine exhausts) - 11% This from the HSE report to the House of Lords on CO poisoning deaths.

 

Yes, I do have a CO alarm even though I burn only wood.

 

My figures are those specific boat co incidents as we have recorded over the past 20 years

 

My last home had a wood-burner, my current home has a wood-burner. We love our wood-burners. I have two CO alarms. One for an upstairs bedroom and the other in the room where the stove is. A sweep of the chimney is being organised this holiday.

 

We have an oil-fired burner. We have it serviced.

 

The message is 'to understand from where and how CO can come from' and then manage or mitigate any risks.

 

We have records of thirty deaths from CO poisoning over the past twenty years.

 

There were several CO deaths last year caused by people taking BBQ's, or their remains, inside tents and/or caravans.

Don't know which catagory those fit into.

12 people in recent years. Charcoal produces huge quantities of CO. Never bring BBQs into a covered space (cabin, cratch, pram covered aft deck) unless they are stone cold to the touch

[n.b.Goldie]

1364889292[/url]' post='1052753']

My figures are those specific boat co incidents as we have recorded over the past 20 years

 

My last home had a wood-burner, my current home has a wood-burner. We love our wood-burners. I have two CO alarms. One for an upstairs bedroom and the other in the room where the stove is. A sweep of the chimney is being organised this holiday.

 

We have an oil-fired burner. We have it serviced.

 

The message is 'to understand from where and how CO can come from' and then manage or mitigate any risks.

 

We have records of thirty deaths from CO poisoning over the past twenty years.

 

 

12 people in recent years. Charcoal produces huge quantities of CO. Never bring BBQs into a covered space (cabin, cratch, pram covered aft deck) unless they are stone cold to the touch

 

Only 1.5 per year compared to the thousands of stoves etc. in operation. Not an unacceptable risk I would say. Probably riskier to cross a road but that is a subjective view.

If folk are stupid enough to bring a live BBQ into an enclosed area it might be better if their genes are removed from the pool.

Regards

Ditchdabbler

Edited April 2, 2013 by ditchdabbler

[Alan de Enfield]

It is thought to be a generator :

 

From BBC News

 

Tony Rothwell, who runs the Bowness Bay marina, was told by lake wardens that the boat had been fitted with a faulty generator.

 

The generator was connected to a fan heater, which is thought to have been turned on. The temperatures around the Lake District remained only just above freezing throughout the day.

 

He said: "It was an amateur job, the boat had been fitted with a generator and the exhaust has leaked. It had been a very cold day and the fan heater was connected to the generator. It is a terrible tragedy."

[Canalwatcher]

Burn good quality fuel (and don't burn green or wet wood)

Make sure your flue is swept regularly, (I clean mine every two months)

And make sure all the flue connections are totally tight/leak free

Check to make sure the stove door (and glass if it's fitted) have good seals (fire-rope.)

and never run your stove with the door open

 

Good advice, keeping the door shut in a well sealed stove makes sure the fumes produced go up the chimney.

 

But what I'm not sure of is what produces the fumes in dangerous quantities in the first place. I think it is where the fire is smouldering and there is only very little air available to the burning coal?

 

Two things I am unsure of the answer for:

 

1) in a house you can burn coal or wood on a open fire and also I think anthracite type fuel. Perhaps its the larger chimmney and room volume. Probably it would be dangerous in a double glazed "sealed" room.

 

2)Last summer on the boat in chilly evenings we used sometimes to burn those artificial logs - the type made from compressed sawdust and other flammable material (maybe wax) wrapped in a paper covering that you just put a single log in the grate and light the paper wrapping. The instructions on these explicitly stated "if used in a stove keep the door open". As we were on the boat and used to keeping the stove door shut at all times we kept it shut and they burnt OK although that may have been the cause of a cracked glass (now replaced) because they did seem to burn at a very high temperature.

 

Mick

[Guest]

Latest here on Sky -

 

A mother and daughter, who died from suspected gas poisoning on an Easter boat trip on Windermere, have been named.

 

http://news.sky.com/story/1072818/windermere-dead-mother-and-daughter-named

[Mac of Cygnet]

My figures are those specific boat co incidents as we have recorded over the past 20 years

 

 

 

We have records of thirty deaths from CO poisoning over the past twenty years.

 

 

 

Thank you Rob. I was unable to find detailed figures for boats, only the total for the 15 years quoted.

 

So about 10 CO deaths caused by solid fuel in 20 years. But, as I found, no record of the type of fuel. As most boaters burn coal-based fuels, I would guess that purely wood produced CO deaths would be vanishingly small in boats

 

My thesis was, and still is, that coal-based and especially smokeless fuels are inherently more dangerous than wood because there is no smoke leakage warning. I have on several occasions detected smoke from my stove (Windy conditions, etc), and therefore probably producing CO into the boat, but without the CO alarm going off. The smoke alarms go off long before enough CO is present to activate that alarm.

 

As I have stated, I do have a CO alarm, but I would not consider using any fuel except wood in my stove.

[Grace and Favour]

>>

Two things I am unsure of the answer for:

 

1) in a house you can burn coal or wood on a open fire and also I think anthracite type fuel. Perhaps its the larger chimmney and room volume. Probably it would be dangerous in a double glazed "sealed" room.

 

2)Last summer on the boat in chilly evenings we used sometimes to burn those artificial logs - the type made from compressed sawdust and other flammable material (maybe wax) wrapped in a paper covering that you just put a single log in the grate and light the paper wrapping. The instructions on these explicitly stated "if used in a stove keep the door open". As we were on the boat and used to keeping the stove door shut at all times we kept it shut and they burnt OK although that may have been the cause of a cracked glass (now replaced) because they did seem to burn at a very high temperature.

 

Mick

 

Mick - you're right - the domestic open fireplace found in houses work with a much greater volume of air in the property, and a much greater draw up the chimney. (and houses must also have air vents fitted in the room to allow air supply )

 

But I cannot enlighten one with the situation about burning those artificial 'logs' - I know nothing about them, (but I would STILL keep the stove door shut!)

[Alan de Enfield]

Only 1.5 per year compared to the thousands of stoves etc. in operation. Not an unacceptable risk I would say. Probably riskier to cross a road but that is a subjective view.

If folk are stupid enough to bring a live BBQ into an enclosed area it might be better if their genes are removed from the pool.

Regards

Ditchdabbler

 

Any avoidable death is a tragedy but to take your analagy :

 

Boating :

1.5 deaths per annum

30,000 boaters

0.00005%

 

Cars

1901 deaths due to cars

34,000,000 cars in UK

0.00006%

 

Pedestrian deaths 2011

233 pedestrians died following collisions with single cars - more than were killed in incidents involving any other type of vehicle.

0.000007%

 

65 pedestrians were killed in incidents involving two or more vehicles, while 61 died after a collision with an HGV or light goods vehicle (LGV).

 

Two pedestrians died after collisions with cyclists - fewer than any other vehicle.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/sep/28/road-deaths-great-britain-data#data

 

Statistics can be made to show anything eg. You, as a pedestrian, are more likely to be killed by a cyclist than you are by CO poisoning on a boat

[Rob@BSSOffice]

 

2)Last summer on the boat in chilly evenings we used sometimes to burn those artificial logs -

Mick

 

There's a really interesting article on these by Rupert Smedley in Waterways World.

[Guest]

The police do now seem to be definitely suspecting CO poisoning...

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-21993924

 

Carbon monoxide poisoning is thought to have killed a mother and her 10-year-old daughter on a boat in Cumbria.

 

Kelly Webster, 36, and Lauren Thornton, from the Leyland area of Lancashire, were airlifted to Royal Lancaster Infirmary where they both died.

 

Matthew Etefson, 39, also from Leyland and who owned the vessel which was on Windermere, is seriously ill in hospital after Monday's incident.

 

Post-mortem examinations are due to be carried out later.

 

It is understood one theory involves the use of a generator on the boat, which may have been faulty.

[David Mack]

Latest here on Sky -

 

A mother and daughter, who died from suspected gas poisoning on an Easter boat trip on Windermere, have been named.

 

http://news.sky.com/story/1072818/windermere-dead-mother-and-daughter-named

 

And a quote from that article:

 

"To think a £20.00 CO monitor would have saved their lives. I will buy one today."

 

Quite!

[ditchcrawler]

I apologise for the 99%. In fact the figures are as follows for deaths from CO poisoning in the UK for the 15 years 1995 - 2010

 

Solid fuel - 31% Gas - 54% Petrol (ie engine exhausts) - 11% This from the HSE report to the House of Lords on CO poisoning deaths.

 

It is extraordinally difficult to find figures for CO poisoning due to purely wood-burning stoves. In fact one manufacturer of woodburners claims:

 

 

 

You may think 'he would say that, wouldn't he?' But I can only find one reported CO death from a woodburner in recent years. You, being in the business, may have better figures, of course. Yes, I do have a CO alarm even though I burn only wood.

I personally know of two deaths by Petrol CO, unfortunately both suicides and both electricians who worked for me and yes I have asked myself if I was the common denominator.