Another CO death on a boat

[Guest]

UPDATE -

 

MAIB confirm faulty generator exhaust and a lack of a working CO meter -

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-22646568

[sueb]

A long time ago someone phoned me laughing about the stupid Bss rules. He had changed his gas fridge for electric and had a genny on his rear deck sending fumes into his boat. He had a co alarm.

[Proper Job]

"The boat's carbon monoxide sensor system did not alarm because it was not connected to a power supply, the investigation found"

 

! ! !

[alan_fincher]

"The boat's carbon monoxide sensor system did not alarm because it was not connected to a power supply, the investigation found"

 

! ! !

Perhaps the generator was being run to 're-establish the. power supply for the detector!

[Guest]

I took it to perhaps mean the CO detector was a hard wired 12V type and it wasn't connected.

 

They are available but less common than the solely battery powered types most of us seem to use.

[MtB]

The CO detector failing is only one of two issues combining to cause the deaths. The other is the use of a generator with a modified exhaust system which became detached.

 

As somebody appears to have realised the genny needed an exhaust extension in the first place, this suggests it was being used inside the boat, or in a non-standard way. The BBC are focusing on how the CO detector failed to detect the genny fumes. They are ignoring the fact that there should not have been genny fumes in the first place.

 

Is the MAIB report now in the public domain? This will explain what really happened, there seems to be more to it than 'just' a CO detector failure.

 

 

MtB

P.S. this is a good example of how subversive CO detectors are. People rely on them instead of preventing the source of the danger in the first place.

[Guest]

Is the MAIB report now in the public domain? This will explain what really happened, there seems to be more to it than 'just' a CO detector failure.

 

http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/SB2_13.pdf

 

Not a full report (more a bulletin) but a bit more detail and pictures of the dodgy installation. Reference to the full report 'to be published'

Edited May 24, 2013 by The Dog House

[Proper Job]

22mm copper with soldered fitting as an exhaust! ! !

 

That investigation has crap conclusions

 

As MtB say's, they focus on CO. The root cause was the poor installation of the generator and the fact that portable air cooled generators should be used as 'portable air cooled generators' and not as a perminent install.

[nb Innisfree]

Our CO detector used to register low levels of CO, after a long period of observation I realised that when the wind blew along our nb from the stern to the bow, smoke from our stove chimney was curling down into a mushroom vent. Replacing the chimney with a longer one cured it (30")

 

Be careful.

[Tuscan]

 

Struggled to post this but BSS has just issued the following press release that may be of interest

 

 

 

BSSBoat Safety Scheme

 

First Floor North, Station House,

 

500 Elder Gate,

 

Milton Keynes, MK9 1BB

 

Tel: 0333 202 1000

 

Email: bss.enquiries@boatsafetyscheme.org

 

Website: www.boatsafetyscheme.org

 

 

 

24 May 2013

 

NR 002.13

 

BSS points boaters to important safety issues highlighted by Windermere’s Easter tragedy

 

 

 

 

 

On the eve of Boat Fire Safety Week, the Boat Safety Scheme (BSS) is pointing UK boaters to the

safety issues identified today in the Marine Accident Investigation Branch (MAIB) Safety Bulletin

concerning the death of mother and her 10-year old daughter aboard the motor cruiser Arniston on

Lake Windermere at Easter.

 

 

 

Indications are that the deaths were caused by poisoning from carbon monoxide (CO) gas.

 

 

 

The initial findings of the MAIB are that exhaust fumes spread from the engine bay into the cabin

when an improvised exhaust and silencer became detached from a ‘suitcase’ style portable petrol-

engined generator.

 

 

 

The important safety information in the Safety Bulletin is that portable generators are usually intended for use in the open air and that the use or permanent installation of these engines on boats, particularly in enclosed spaces or below decks, increases the risk of carbon monoxide poisoning.

 

 

 

The Bulletin stresses that work on any boat engine exhaust system should only be carried out by

suitably qualified technicians following manufacturers’ instructions with approved parts suitable for

marine use.

 

 

 

Supporting these messages in the MAIB Safety Bulletin, BSS manager Graham Watts said:

 

‘It’s critical that boaters wise-up to the potential dangers of carbon monoxide. It cannot be seen,

smelt, tasted, or felt and in high concentrations, CO can kill without warning, sometimes in only

minutes.’ ‘But even breathing-in lower levels of CO over a longer period, can have serious effects such as memory problems and difficulty concentrating.’

 

 

 

The early symptoms of CO poisoning can be masked or mistaken for colds or flu. Victims might suffer

headaches, become bad tempered; feel sick and dizzy; they might be tired and confused or have

stomach pains and start throwing-up. More serious affects can quickly develop such as loss of balance, difficulty breathing or controlling

limbs and eventually unconsciousness.

 

 

 

Any carbon-fuel burning appliance or engine can cause CO – carbon fuels include diesel, petrol, gas,

coal, wood and charcoal.

 

 

Graham Watts added

 

’In the BSS experience, the main sources of CO on a boat are engine exhaust fumes and escaped

combustion gases from solid fuel stoves and flues. Other domestic appliances like gas fridges and

paraffin heaters that are faulty, badly maintained, or misused can also produce the toxic gas.’

 

 

 

He said:

 

‘CO can also occur or be made worse when ventilators are blocked, or fresh air is in short supply -

fuels need the right amount of oxygen to burn safely. ‘Prevention is the key to staying safe, equipment needs to be properly installed, well maintained and sed according to the instructions

 

 

 

‘Our belt and braces advice is to fit a CO alarm approved as meeting BS EN 50291; these are best

suited for boats.

 

CO alarms and/or their batteries should be replaced if they do not work when tested, or if the

replacement date marked on the alarm has passed.

 

 

 

The BSS has the latest advice for boaters on http://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/stay-safe/carbon-

monoxide-(co) – Don’t let CO ruin your life.

has today issued the following press release which may make useful reading

[Mike Todd]

That investigation has crap conclusions

 

As MtB say's, they focus on CO. The root cause was the poor installation of the generator and the fact that portable air cooled generators should be used as 'portable air cooled generators' and not as a perminent install.

 

Not sure how you justify that remark: this is an interim report, issued in order to highlight as quickly as possible any recommendations to other people in order to avoid a repetition. The same thing happened recently near here in Cornwall regarding a fatal accident in which a kill cord was not being used. The aim of the report was to ensure that all boat users are reminded of the dangers of failing to comply.

 

In this case, anyone using a rigged up generator in an enclosed space really ought to have it checked out by a properly qualified person as soon as possible, preferably before further use.

 

Issuing such a report, even if the exact details of the case that gives rise to it, is very good practice in order to prevent further fatalities.

 

I cannot see why you should criticise MAIB for doing that.

[MtB]

In this case, anyone using a rigged up generator in an enclosed space really ought to have it checked out by a properly qualified person as soon as possible, preferably before further use.

 

Frankly, the above is crap advice.

 

Better advice would be anyone with a portable generator 'rigged up' for use in an enclosed space must stop using it NOW, and in future use it only in accordance with the manufacturer's Instructions, i.e. in open air.

 

MtB

[The Pipe]

I had an interesting discussion with a friend fitting a detector on the best position for it as CO2 is heavier than air it in theory should sink to floor level, except it is usually produced in conjunction with heat so it could also be inducted upwards so the concentration could be higher at an upper level.

 

I would be interested to hear what Rob has to say as canal boats are a different environment than houses and are a much more closed space.

 

 

No idea as to why this has come out at a size you can hardly read and will not let me change it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited May 24, 2013 by Jim Evans

[Teadaemon]

You're trying to detect CO (molecular mass 30, similar to oxygen at 32 and nitrogen at 28), not CO2 (molecular mass 46). Advice on placement of CO detectors is available on the BSS website http://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/stay-safe/carbon-monoxide-%28co%29/placing-co-alarms, or follow the manufacturer's instructions.

[Ray T]

A hypothesis:

 

Could a faulty / leaking diesel central heating exhaust result in similar issues?

 

Our diesel heater is in the engine bay with exhaust gasses venting through a OEM pipe via a silencer. The exhaust is fitted with OEM screw clamps.

In theory these should be checked regularly to make sure they haven't worked lose.

[Grace and Favour]

I had an interesting discussion with a friend fitting a detector on the best position for it as CO2 is heavier than air it in theory should sink to floor level, except it is usually produced in conjunction with heat so it could also be inducted upwards so the concentration could be higher at an upper level.

 

I would be interested to hear what Rob has to say as canal boats are a different environment than houses and are a much more closed space.

 

 

No idea as to why this has come out at a size you can hardly read and will not let me change it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Aye - but CO (Carbon Monoxide) has a similar (albeit not identical) SG to air, and they are required to be fitted at shoulder/head height I believe

 

(or have I missed the point you're making?)

[Teadaemon]

A hypothesis:

 

Could a faulty / leaking diesel central heating exhaust result in similar issues?

 

Our diesel heater is in the engine bay with exhaust gasses venting through a OEM pipe via a silencer. The exhaust is fitted with OEM screw clamps.

In theory these should be checked regularly to make sure they haven't worked lose.

 

Yes it could. There was a case a good few years ago now on the Thames where fumes from a diesel central heating unit with the exhaust on the transom were drawn back inside the canopy of an aft cockpit cruiser while it was traveling, and a family suffered CO poisoning (fortunately not fatal in that case).

 

Check those screws (and the rest of the exhaust system) as part of your regular maintenance procedure (I wouldn't like to specify a time interval, but anything less than annually would seem far too long, maybe an every 3 or 6 months job, though monthly wouldn't be being too cautious).

[magnetman]

its quite a big danger with an air blower diesel heater because as described above you don't even need a leak !!

 

when I used to run a honda ex650 on the back deck of a trad nb I would sometimes see low level co on a digital co detector inside the boat about 20ft away depending on wind direction and that was with the gennie outside but a door open.

 

I would say with an air blower diesel heater a co detector is a must because it would be so easy for exhausy fumes to end up in the,warm air supply to the accomodation space because of the design of the burner unit

[alan_fincher]

I hate "over-regulation", but from the look of that lashed up (soldered!) exhaust, this would appear to be a very good demonstration of why some people need protecting from themselves.

 

A very tragic outcome, but (other that someone has thought it acceptable at all!), not really a surprising one.

[Guest]

Yes it could. There was a case a good few years ago now on the Thames where fumes from a diesel central heating unit with the exhaust on the transom were drawn back inside the canopy of an aft cockpit cruiser while it was traveling, and a family suffered CO poisoning (fortunately not fatal in that case).

 

Check those screws (and the rest of the exhaust system) as part of your regular maintenance procedure (I wouldn't like to specify a time interval, but anything less than annually would seem far too long, maybe an every 3 or 6 months job, though monthly wouldn't be being too cautious).

 

Some thing I have never thought to check before.... till now..

[Barry]

I hate "over-regulation", but from the look of that lashed up (soldered!) exhaust, this would appear to be a very good demonstration of why some people need protecting from themselves.

 

A very tragic outcome, but (other that someone has thought it acceptable at all!), not really a surprising one.

 

Do you reckon the heat from the exhaust has melted the solder, allowing the system to fall apart?

 

That was my first thought

[alan_fincher]

Do you reckon the heat from the exhaust has melted the solder, allowing the system to fall apart?

 

That was my first thought

No expert on how hot a generator exhaust can get, but I would have thought it highly possible.

 

You don't need huge amounts of heat to get soldered pie apart.

 

One also wonders if the "genny" was sufficiently "plumbed in" that it couldn't be removed for refuelling, (assuming its a petrol one), and hence, when it ran out of fuel, whether they were tipping petrol in, along with all the vapours, in a confined compartment, possibly while things were still hot?

 

Over on Facebook there are people holding forth that there is nowt wrong with running a "genny" on the deck of your boat, as long as you keep an eye on wind direction.....

 

As I said, some people do seem to need protecting from themselves......

[Proper Job]

Do you reckon the heat from the exhaust has melted the solder, allowing the system to fall apart?

 

That was my first thought

I would say that the genny was working hard (it was running a fan heater), softened the solder and vibration did the rest

 

Gennies sold as perminment instal equipment are expensive, portable one are relatively cheap. One is for doing one job, the other another.

 

If this was fitted by a 'proffesional' - they need to go to jail.

[Rob@BSSOffice]

A hypothesis:

 

Could a faulty / leaking diesel central heating exhaust result in similar issues?

 

Our diesel heater is in the engine bay with exhaust gasses venting through a OEM pipe via a silencer. The exhaust is fitted with OEM screw clamps.

In theory these should be checked regularly to make sure they haven't worked lose.

 

Ray,

That is spot on. It was only few days before the tragic event on Windermere, that a family of four were taken to hospital with confirmed carbon monoxide poisoning.

 

They were on a narrowboat with only a diesel heater running, the heater was in the engine bay. On investigation, the exhaust from the heater (having an improvised bracket as it happens) was found to be loose and had a hole in it.

 

Do check all exhausts, flues and chimney regularly and habitually for any signs of insecurity, damage or deterioration.

 

If anyone spots a problem with this equipment, don't put it on the round-tuit list. Get the problem rectified, and properly. CO is not a forgiving gas, it can cause very serious problems very quickly.

 

And as we said in the news release, even low level exposure over a longer term can affect the memory and concentration.

 

If you think that you may have CO in the cabin or engine space, get it checked out, get any problems sorted and don't accept bodge-jobs.

 

Oh, and as belt-and-baces protection, install carbon monoxide alarms as per the link in Taedeamon's post #39, because even a pukka arrangement can go wrong unexpectedly. (ref: Lake Windermere incident one week after the Easter weekend fatalities)

[alan_fincher]

One also wonders if the "genny" was sufficiently "plumbed in" that it couldn't be removed for refuelling, (assuming its a petrol one), and hence, when it ran out of fuel, whether they were tipping petrol in, along with all the vapours, in a confined compartment, possibly while things were still hot?

Looking at the pictures again, I actually think the generator is being fed from a portable fuel tank that is not part of the main unit.