CO poisoning

[Guest]

Fair point..

[onionbargee]

the people who have died from co poisoning might have wished they had been forced to get an alarm ?

 

I don't get how the BSS is full of overblown risks, but a CO alarm is not one of them. In my mind it's one of the only things that should be mandatory.

[Teadaemon]

the people who have died from co poisoning might have wished they had been forced to get an alarm ?

 

I don't get how the BSS is full of overblown risks, but a CO alarm is not one of them. In my mind it's one of the only things that should be mandatory.

 

It's only a few months ago that the BSS asked for comments on the changes coming into effect at the beginning of 2013, if you felt so strongly on the subject did you send them a comment? (I suspect I know the answer to this, as IIRC out of about 50 comments on the proposed changes only one came from a boater, and I think that was on another matter.)

 

I know I've mentioned it before, but I recently took the BSS examiners training course. After going through all of the requirements in great detail my view is that they are what the BSS say they are - the bare minimum required to ensure that a boat is adequately protected from a limited number of defined unsafe conditions. The only checks that are more onerous than those I would apply when surveying a vessel are flue spillage tests on open-flued appliances and the soundness check on a gas system. That's mainly because surveyors are not generally trained to conduct those tests and normally default to recommending that the gas systems are checked by a competent professional. I can certainly think of situations where were I to perform a survey and a BSS examination on a vessel at the same time, I'd be saying to the owner "your boat has passed the BSS, but there are some urgent safety recommendations on the survey". The lack of a CO alarm on a boat with non room-sealed fuel burning appliances is one of those situations.

[Radiomariner]

the people who have died from co poisoning might have wished they had been forced to get an alarm ?

 

I don't get how the BSS is full of overblown risks, but a CO alarm is not one of them. In my mind it's one of the only things that should be mandatory.

 

You hit the nail on the head. by saying "In my mind"

The BSS also points out that the owner is at all times responsible for safety on the boat. If you think it is a must, then you fit one (which I am sure you personally have done so.)

In General the BSS looks for unsafe conditions Now in my mind a CO monitor has never killed anyone, not even a defective one, it is the CO and the defective appliance or operation of the same that creates it that kills, and that where possible is what should be is mandatory.

However, I sympathise with your sentiment, I do indeed have a CO alarm fitted on my boat.

I am also a little disappointed that the new requirements for stoves is Advisory. (But I would not like to be the examiner to tell a boater that he MUST repair or replace a stove that he has been living with for years)

 

P.S. I have discovered, however that a defective fire alarm may have potential to kill. After a third false alarm while cooking Sunday breakfast (Fry up) SWMBO snatched it off the bulkhead and threw it at me. Heavens knows what may have happened had it made contact!

Edited December 14, 2012 by Radiomariner

[Keeping Up]

The original Boat Safety certification had a small but steadily-increasing number of rules that were designed to prevent the boater from harming himself. Unchecked it would eventually have became a nannying blanket that would have made narrowboating completely impossible. Luckily when the BSC became the BSS, its focus sensibly changed to minimising the risks to other people and to the canal environment. Matters such as ventilation became only advisory, and CO monitors would fit into this category too.

 

Personally I think that the current approach is right, with the boater being fundamentally responsible for his own safety, and I would hate to see it swing back the other way. However I would like to see fire alarms and LPG alarms become mandatory on all boats (with an exemption to the LPG requirement for gas-free boats of course)

[ditchcrawler]

The original Boat Safety certification had a small but steadily-increasing number of rules that were designed to prevent the boater from harming himself. Unchecked it would eventually have became a nannying blanket that would have made narrowboating completely impossible. Luckily when the BSC became the BSS, its focus sensibly changed to minimising the risks to other people and to the canal environment. Matters such as ventilation became only advisory, and CO monitors would fit into this category too.

 

Personally I think that the current approach is right, with the boater being fundamentally responsible for his own safety, and I would hate to see it swing back the other way. However I would like to see fire alarms and LPG alarms become mandatory on all boats (with an exemption to the LPG requirement for gas-free boats of course)

I agree fully with your first paragraph but having spent many years trying to maintain gas detectors in a reliable working state I am not convinced that in a boat they would be very reliable. I think that a correctly designed, installed and maintained system would be a much better thing to aim at.

[Alastair]

In our house the (gas, fan-forced flue) boiler is in the attic bedroom. Daughter who lives in there hasn't been well.

So I bought one of the Kidde alarms recommended here.

Fitted it and peak reading was immediately 23. Far too high.

Rest of house was 10.

Took a good look at the (corgi installed, inspected by GasSafe plumbers, I've seen the docs) boiler and noticed two things:

1) No ventilation into the room. None. No air bricks, nothing.

2) The flue joints were not sealed as per the installation manual.

I swore quite a bit, then sealed flue joints with the proper sealant, topped it off with Aluminum tape once cured and fitted vent grills in the door.

Kidde alarm now reports peak readings of 14.

[ditchcrawler]

I didn't know you were allowed one in the bedroom

[b0atman]

Why not if properly installed then perfectly safe .

Why still getting a reading of 10 surely it should be 0.

[Robbo]

Why not if properly installed then perfectly safe .

Why still getting a reading of 10 surely it should be 0.

 

You'' find that most CO alarms won't show anything under 10ppm. The peak reading may also be from the last 4 weeks, not sure on Kiddie, mine is a Fireangel.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Robbo

[Lmcgrath87]

I registered at that the GP on Thursday so I can't get an appointment until next week. I went to a NHS walk in centre in Slough on Thursday but the doctor said he couldn't really do anything for me and I need to register with my GP and get my records. I got a phone call from Ascot stroke centre and I'm going there all day for some tests on Monday.

 

How did you get on today?

[Guest]

You'' find that most CO alarms won't show anything under 10ppm. The peak reading may also be from the last 4 weeks, not sure on Kiddie, mine is a Fireangel.

I'm pretty sure the peak reading on our Kidde is between 're sets' back to zero.

[b0atman]

Just ordered a Kidde with a meter as present ones are alarm only so no idea of any readings

[craftycarper]

How did you get on today?

 

. Check the date it was two years ago hope he's not still in the waiting room

[Loafer]

My mum used to suffer from migraine, all coloured light before her eyes. This came on at a wedding reception once and we found the cure. I got her a single shot of whiskey, she knocked it back and said the migraine just lifted immediately, gone!. From then on she always kept a bottle indoors for that purpose and it always worked. But i believe there are different types of migraine so the whiskey thing may not work in your case.

I can confirm this. I've been drinking whisky for years, and I've never had migraine.

[matty40s]

 

In our house the (gas, fan-forced flue) boiler is in the attic bedroom. Daughter who lives in there hasn't been well.

So I bought one of the Kidde alarms recommended here.

Fitted it and peak reading was immediately 23. Far too high.

Rest of house was 10.

Took a good look at the (corgi installed, inspected by GasSafe plumbers, I've seen the docs) boiler and noticed two things:

1) No ventilation into the room. None. No air bricks, nothing.

2) The flue joints were not sealed as per the installation manual.

I swore quite a bit, then sealed flue joints with the proper sealant, topped it off with Aluminum tape once cured and fitted vent grills in the door.

Kidde alarm now reports peak readings of 14.

 

Alastair, have you followed this up with the installers, or the gas-safe authorities, I know that it is a house, but installers like this need to be removed from circulation.

[Pykebird]

I had the arson task force guys out on Friday(long story!) and they checked the measures that I have on my boat. She is 50 foot and I had 2 co2 alarms both in the lounge as have a solid fuel fire and a smoke detector also in the lounge. I also have 1 fire extinguisher in the bedroom, bathroom, lounge, kitchen and by back door!

But he insisted on giving me another 2 smoke detectors, one for bedroom, one for above engine bay as well as another co2 alarm also for above engine bay. Although I fell this may be just a little over the top I have put them up, so if I start to loose weight its because I daren't cook anything!!!

Edited December 16, 2014 by pykebird

[Guest]

Alastair, have you followed this up with the installers, or the gas-safe authorities, I know that it is a house, but installers like this need to be removed from circulation.

This /\

 

Whoever has done this could be responsible for the death of someone in the future.

[Alastair]

This /\

 

Whoever has done this could be responsible for the death of someone in the future.

A good point - I hadn't thought of this.

 

tbh, I'd be worried that if a plumber inspected it they would still condemn the installation as unfit for a bedroom. I intend fitting a new boiler in the garage but don't have the money for that yet.

 

I'm satisfied that it is now safe (but will be monitoring it closely).

[MtB]

 

In our house the (gas, fan-forced flue) boiler is in the attic bedroom. Daughter who lives in there hasn't been well.

So I bought one of the Kidde alarms recommended here.

Fitted it and peak reading was immediately 23. Far too high.

Rest of house was 10.

Took a good look at the (corgi installed, inspected by GasSafe plumbers, I've seen the docs) boiler and noticed two things:

1) No ventilation into the room. None. No air bricks, nothing.

2) The flue joints were not sealed as per the installation manual.

I swore quite a bit, then sealed flue joints with the proper sealant, topped it off with Aluminum tape once cured and fitted vent grills in the door.

Kidde alarm now reports peak readings of 14.

 

 

 

This is really worrying on a number of separate counts, but here are my comments:

 

1) The only type of boiler allowed in a bedroom or sleeping area is a room sealed boiler.

 

2) Room sealed boilers do not connect with the inside air so it must either be damaged or incorrectly assembled.

 

3) A boiler running correctly typically produces 10 to 50 ppm of CO in the products of combustion, so given the result in your room is in this range, it suggest the room contains 100% flue gas. (This value is normally heavily diluted when mixed with a few cubic metres of room air)

 

4) If the boiler is burning badly and producing tons of CO, it is usually visually obvious by looking at the flames. Yellow and floppy (like a candle flame) rather than steady and blue.

 

5)) An incorrectly assembled boiler is highly unlikely as you say you've had it inspected by a Gas Safe Register plumber. But still possible if the man was an idiot. There are a few about but the tend to err on the ridiculously cautious side rather than miss obvious faults like floppy yellow gas flames. Or an open flue boiler installed in a bedroom.

 

6) A room sealed boiler does not need the air vent to outside you mention (except sometimes, if installed inside a cupboard).

 

7) I would expect a CO reading of ZERO everywhere inside a house, except perhaps in a kitchen while a gas cooker is in use, so you still have a problem which your work on the boiler flue has not fixed.

 

In summary, if you post the make and model of boiler I can tell you if it is legal to have it in a bedroom. Or check the manual. Until then, turn it off NOW. If it turns out to be an open flue boiler it must not be used (or the room must not be used for sleeping until it is replaced) and Gas Safe Register informed as they will want to inspect and the installer will be for the high jump. If open flue this is a really serious flouting of the regulations and every gas bod involved should have noticed and will be in line for a warning, inspection and possible removal from The Register of Gas Installers.

 

The CO reading of 10ppm in the rest of the house is not good. I think you need to investigate this too.

 

The final possibility is you have a faulty CO alarm. What does it read if you put it outside in the garden for a few hours?

 

 

MtB

[Guest]

A good point - I hadn't thought of this.

 

tbh, I'd be worried that if a plumber inspected it they would still condemn the installation as unfit for a bedroom. I intend fitting a new boiler in the garage but don't have the money for that yet.

 

I'm satisfied that it is now safe (but will be monitoring it closely).

 

But making it completely safe might not cost a lot, and it already might be, how much is your peace of mind worth against something going wrong? What if your CO alarm is not reading correctly for example, they are not infallible.

 

I can't recall what the regs. now say about boilers in bedrooms (MTB will know) but ISTR that whilst it's not recommended its not prohibited, at least for existing installations. I think you are taking a gamble by not getting it checked by someday competent and Gas Safe TBH.

 

 

Ed. Cross post with MTB.

Edited December 16, 2014 by The Dog House

[MtB]

A good point - I hadn't thought of this.

 

tbh, I'd be worried that if a plumber inspected it they would still condemn the installation as unfit for a bedroom. I intend fitting a new boiler in the garage but don't have the money for that yet.

 

I'm satisfied that it is now safe (but will be monitoring it closely).

 

 

Really? And have your daughter's symptoms cleared up?

 

Whatever the the boiler in the attic room, I'd be worried about the CO in the rest of the house. 10ppm is unnaturally high for long term exposure.

 

 

MtB

[Guest]

As an aside. Our Prima B boiler at home has just had a long overdue service.

 

Although the flame looked as if it was burning correctly I had noticed the burner ignition wasn't as 'smooth' as it should be and our Kidde CO alarm was showing consistently low levels of CO in the room adjacent to the kitchen.

 

Possibly this could have been related it's location but I have noticed now we get a constant CO reading of zero. Mental note not to leave it as long next time ie get it done in a year. We have struggled though to find somebody willing to service an older boiler.

[p6rob]

A good point - I hadn't thought of this.

 

tbh, I'd be worried that if a plumber inspected it they would still condemn the installation as unfit for a bedroom. I intend fitting a new boiler in the garage but don't have the money for that yet.

 

I'm satisfied that it is now safe (but will be monitoring it closely).

To put it in perspective. Low level CO poisoning could be causing your daughter long term brain damage.

Sorry if that sounds over dramatic but can your daughter sleep elsewhere until it's confirmed safe?

[MtB]

To put it in perspective. Low level CO poisoning could be causing your daughter long term brain damage.

Sorry if that sounds over dramatic but can your daughter sleep elsewhere until it's confirmed safe?

 

To add a bit more persepective, it is highly UNlikely the boiler at fault, especially as it has been seen by a Gas Safe Register bod and given the CO levels are also recorded high lower in the house.

 

Best compromise advice is to turn the boiler OFF while the room is used for sleeping, until the source of the high CO readings is eliminated.

 

MtB