The unknown pitfalls of buying a narrowboat.

[mrsmelly]

I am so sorry to hear your news. Sadly you hear a lot of similar stories. All I can say is, I had a near miss with a certain marina Marina and all I lost was a lot of time, petrol and patience. I did walk away from a boat I liked very much, but I do have to say I have since found a wonderful little boat, right on my doorstep that has been looked after and was ready to go, literally!! It even had a set fire for me. Count yur blessings and walk away there are loads of great boats out there from truely lovely people - just ask around real boat people.

 

 

Greenie awarded for sensible post.

 

Tim

[RichLech]

Wasn't by any chance Margareta was it? Back on the market at 17950.

[Graham.m]

Wasn't by any chance Margareta was it? Back on the market at 17950.

 

Could this be the Margareta ? My link

[Martin Megson]

Sorry to hear of your bad experience but I would think you have a fairly strong case for claiming a refund of your deposit for the simple reason that the vendor has sold the boat.

 

I would personally avoid any marina that actually buys and sells boats rather than simply acting as a broker. The following is a quote from Braunston Marina where I bought my boat and I think it rings very true.

 

"We do not buy boats for cash as we believe this creates a serious conflict of interest."

[Rob-M]

There is an article in Decembers Canal Boat entitled Buyer Beware which gives some details of things to look out for when buying second hand boats. One of the things mentioned is under the Business Advertisments Directive Order 1977 a broker has to make it clear if they are the owner of the boat that is being sold as this changes their role from Borker to Trader and apparently means different laws apply such as the Sales of Goods Act meaning the item has to be fit for purpose or the trader is responsible for putting it right. It might be worth picking up a copy of the magazine to read the article, by the way I don't work for the magazine, just subscribe to it.

[wannabe]

I'm still at the looking on line stage. (and dreaming lol)

A few posts lately have made me realise just how hard it is to pick the "right" boat

I, naively, thought brokers were just that

Seems I need to do a little homework

I hope the OP gets things sorted ok

And thanks for the tip off

Edited November 28, 2012 by wannabe

[Rambling]

very useful information to know.. thank you. .. reputation is everything and they will certainly lose theirs.. I shall avoid said marina..

[ditchcrawler]

Sorry to hear of your bad experience but I would think you have a fairly strong case for claiming a refund of your deposit for the simple reason that the vendor has sold the boat.

 

I would personally avoid any marina that actually buys and sells boats rather than simply acting as a broker. The following is a quote from Braunston Marina where I bought my boat and I think it rings very true.

 

"We do not buy boats for cash as we believe this creates a serious conflict of interest."

That's strange as I read in a magazine where they bought a boat for cash, sold it and it turned out to be stolen. They did the right thing and gave the buyer their money back and were prepared to take the financial hit.

But then, maybe that's the reason they don't buy them now.

[Doubleh]

Before you go any further I would look who the sales contract is with. When we bought our boat the contract was with the buyer not the marina, who act as an independent broker. I believe this is the case for most sales of boats, and from your description sounds like it applies here too.

 

If this is the case you had a contract with the vendor which they have breached by selling the boat to a third party. As such you should be entitled to recission which means that you would be put back in the same place as if you had not entered the contract in the first place - this likely would cover the cost of the survey and possibly some transport etc as well. certainly the deposit should be refunded without question.

 

Technically it is probably the vendor who is liable, but your best chance to get the money back is from The marina as they have the boat and the reputation (or not readong some of these comments!)

 

You can sue in the small claims court online very easily, with no need to involve a lawyer, if you need to keep costs down. However it would be worth checking your home insurance as these often include legal support which may cover this. Failing that citizens advie are worth talking to, or it may be worth paying a lawyer for a briefing on the law and threatening letter even of you go on to sue yourself.

 

Good luck, and worst case look on the bright side - this may be an expensive lesson but probably saved you thousands compared to buying a sieve with remediation work of unknown quality. As others have said I would run, not walk away from this boat!

[rockmine]

If you paid a £1000 deposit, it would appear that you had formed a contract to buy. If there was a subsequent breach of contract, you can sue for all your losses, possibly including the survey fees, your travelling costs, other related costs and of course the deposit back.

 

Forget the boat, there are loads out there to choose from, find a hungry solicitor and set them on the boatyard.

 

 

Thanks to everyone for their good advice and support. I'm in Daventry prior to visiting the marina to seek my deposit and walk away - unless they have a complete change of heart.

 

With that in mind, I would love any of the nice folk in the narrowboat community who have or know of a boat available for less than £ 20K to let me know.

 

Many thanks in advance.

 

Roy

[RLWP]

Best of luck Roy. Be strong

 

Richard

[FadeToScarlet]

Thanks to everyone for their good advice and support. I'm in Daventry prior to visiting the marina to seek my deposit and walk away - unless they have a complete change of heart.

 

With that in mind, I would love any of the nice folk in the narrowboat community who have or know of a boat available for less than £ 20K to let me know.

 

Many thanks in advance.

 

Roy

 

Good luck looking for another boat - I'm sure the right one will come along soon. Alas mine's on for more like £25-26k

[Richard10002]

If you paid a £1000 deposit, it would appear that you had formed a contract to buy. If there was a subsequent breach of contract, you can sue for all your losses, possibly including the survey fees, your travelling costs, other related costs and of course the deposit back.

 

Forget the boat, there are loads out there to choose from, find a hungry solicitor and set them on the boatyard.

 

2 people have suggested solicitors.... Who is going to pay the solicitors fee when they fail to get anything back for the OP, either by way of refund, or compensation?

 

Wilton wil either return the deposit, or they won't. If they don't, a small claims action without any help from an expensive solicitor will have as much chance of getting it back, or get a CCJ against them.

 

There may be a claim against the seller for breach of contract.... Depends on the contract. Would it be worth pursuing? - a moot point.

 

If you give someone a copy of your survey, they can do what they like with that copy..... The surveyor will have made it clear what he will be liable for, and to whom. It almost certainly wouldn't be worth any legal action in relation to the survey.

 

Unfortunately, like car dealers, there are plenty more customers for brokers like Wilton, so they don't seem to need to worry about the odd bad review, here or elsewhere.

 

Get the deposit back.... Walk away.... Don't deal with a firm like this again!

[bowten]

Let us know how you get on.

[Bee]

An initial consultation with a solicitor need not be horribly expensive and sends a message that you are indeed serious in your intentions although recourse to the courts is a big step. The contribution about the Citizens Advice Bureau was sensible and would perhaps be a better first course of action,No company is going to relish bad publicity in the press and grapevine but I reckon they`ve earned themselves a great big steaming pile of it here.

[Leonie]

An initial consultation with a solicitor need not be horribly expensive

 

Really? I've always been quoted around £200 - £300 for an initial consultation, which, when you are only talking about £1k and they may say 'there is nothing you can do to recoup that loss' is rather expensive I think. Unless you are entitled to Legal Aid then solicitors are always expensive.

[Bee]

It`s a while since I last saw a solicitor and I remember the initial consultation was free, I suppose it depends on the solicitor, legal aid has been cut and cut till theres not much left and I think `my` solicitor charges £150 per hour which is 20x what I earn so I agree, not worth it if it`s going to cost a lot, it seems if you are wealthy you can buy a whole lot of law and if you aren`t you only ever get it used against you, Ah come the revolution........

[Radiomariner]

If you give someone a copy of your survey, they can do what they like with that copy..... The surveyor will have made it clear what he will be liable for, and to whom. It almost certainly wouldn't be worth any legal action in relation to the survey.

 

 

 

The surveyors report should state for whom the survey was for, and therefore for who he was liable to. (His liability is not to the boat) If anyone else uses that report they will not have the security of the surveyors insurance. Very limited consolation to the OP though.

 

 

I think, that as some others suggest a visit to the Citizens Advice Bureau should be first stop.

SWMBO was sacked on the grounds of Gross Negligence some fifteen sixteen years ago. The charge was trumped up, the buisness owner wanted to replace her with one of his family. By citing gross negligence he could get rid of her immediately without any notice or severance payment. He didnd think she would oppose him.

CBA did it all for us, he settled out of court provided a letter of apology and gave a good reference. I would be happy to use the CBA any time.

The whole affair was very interesting, but not for this thread.

Edited November 30, 2012 by Radiomariner

[boathunter]

...I think `my` solicitor charges £150 per hour...

Lucky you - mine charges £220 + vat. Seems to be the going rate. Funnily, they're never there when you need them - always on holiday.

[Radiomariner]

Lucky you - mine charges £220 + vat. Seems to be the going rate. Funnily, they're never there when you need them - always on holiday.

 

But they are allowed to charge for "thinking" about your case, even while away on holiday!

[ditchcrawler]

Thanks to everyone for their good advice and support. I'm in Daventry prior to visiting the marina to seek my deposit and walk away - unless they have a complete change of heart.

 

With that in mind, I would love any of the nice folk in the narrowboat community who have or know of a boat available for less than £ 20K to let me know.

 

Many thanks in advance.

 

Roy

I have just seen someone called Nick Wedd post on uk.rec.waterways who has a 60' Springer built in 1985 for sale

[Bob the welder]

I have to own up, I'm a newbie to boat buying. A newbie but not a complete idiot.

 

The premise was simple: find a boat that suited my needs and looked acceptable, go and see the various candidates at marinas and canals across England and Scotland, then put in an offer subject to survey.

 

That was what I read one did, so I did likewise. I settled after several months of looking, on a boat called "Manu Tahi" being sold at ******* Marina . When I saw it, the asking price was £ 19,950. Several weeks after first seeing it, I found it was still available. To me, it offered everything I wanted and above all, it had a good "feel" about it. I'd discounted dozens of other craft and was happy to put an offer on the boat. My first offer was refused but my second accepted - £ 17,950. It had a homely feel to it but was tired and in need of work on the interior which I accepted.

 

I booked a survey with an independent surveyor included in a list provided by Whilton. The surveyor, Craig Allen even said I could be on hand when he looked at the boat. As it would let me see all the problems first hand with an expert safety examiner, I jumped at the chance.

 

On Monday, 19th November, I met Mr A**** at *******. We were unable to start with the hull survey as a crane would using the area adjoining the slipway but as I had travelled down from Perthshire in Scotland, someone at the marina made sure we were able to start on other elements of the survey.

 

It was an eye-opener. Behind a pleasant enough exterior, a series of major issues needed to be dealt with. The boat failed its survey on several safety issues but also a major insurance one. The hull needed to be re-plated.

 

Oddly, I wasn't undaunted and went back to the marina office to give them an update on the surveyor's verbal comments. A couple of salesmen gave me a price per foot for re-plating but pointed out they were not necessarily the cheapest and there were other companies who could do the work.

 

By the end of the week, I had the full survey report and a copy had per my instructions been sent to *******. After a couple of days, they put a cost on the safety and insurance work of £ 14,010 inclusive of V.A.T. The surveyor's Conclusion & Valuation had stated, "Upon completion of all Insurance and boat Safety works, I feel the offer of £ 17,950 to be a reasonable one."

 

I was told by *******that after commission, the vendor would get £ 2,240. Someone had mentioned that the boat was his pride and joy and as such, news of the work needing undertaken must have been heart-breaking. I really felt for the seller and was prepared to increase my price to cushion the blow slightly. That was how things were left on Sunday.

 

On the afternoon of Tuesday 27th November I was contacted by Whilton and told that the vendor was not prepared to sell at the agreed price but wanted their original price of £ 20,950. I had already paid a £ 1,000 deposit which is meant to stop gazumping and yet, here I was effectively being gazumped. I countered with a verbal offer of £ 19,495 which a short time later I was told had been accepted.

 

That was when things took an unexpected turn. A salesman called ****** from *******told me that they had bought the boat from the vendor and waived their commission as they would make their money on doing the re-plating work. I was suddenly in a situation where I was no longer able to consider other companies but being forced to accept *******'s price and their terms. They made it clear that the plating could not be started until late January or February which I had stated was unacceptable. As my plan had always been to have the boat transported to Scotland by road, I saw no problem in taking it to anyone who could do the work. Needless to say I remembered the words of the salesman who had said there were other companies who could re-plate for less.

 

I'm assured by ******* that these are standard practices which I would love to doubt. Setting that aside however, there is the issue of ******* buying a boat at a knock-down price based on a survey that I had paid for. I asked if the survey money would be reimbursed as a result but was told they would only ever do a hull survey which would cost £ 250 (not the £ 500 I was charged). My reaction was to ask for that but was told it would not be forthcoming if I decided not to proceed.

 

If this is a commonplace practice, I despair as it seems that both vendor and purchaser are entering into a contract with each other, which the seller's agents then rip up and ignore.

 

My understanding is this: I was buying a boat from a private individual subject to survey. That survey showed work needed to be carried out and either the vendor would carry it out and sell at the agreed price, or reduce the price by the amount. For *******to ignore what I believed to be a binding contract and buy the boat and sell to me at a higher price is ridiculous and not what I would have expected from a reputable company.

 

If these are standard practices, then I do feel people need to be aware of them. I'm sure such practices would not be tolerated in the housing market, or even car sales.

you can buy a new shell for 14.000

[rockmine]

A quick update for everyone.

 

I met with a director of the marina in question on Thursday afternoon of last week. He agreed to refund my deposit but refused the survey fee, or even part of it. Oddly, when I asked for a written confirmation that the funds would go back into the account they came from, I was presented with a page to sign that stated I was acknowledging receipt of the refund. I asked for the page to be re-written to clearly indicate that the refund would be made the next day. It was made within 24 hours.

 

Before I left the marina, I was told the contract was between the marina and myself and not an individual seller! That would back up what a lot of people have said and was certainly something I should have noticed and questioned to start with.

 

The director also pointed out that social networks and the like were an area that they were concerned about and asked if I could remove my postings. I said I was not prepared to do that but would say we had a meeting which was productive and amicable and led to a refund of my deposit.

 

Since then I received an email from the editor of Towpath Talk. It read as follows:

 

"Dear Roy

 

We have been in contact with Whilton Marina regarding your problems surrounding the purchase of a narrowboat. We understand this has now been settled amicably but please could you contact Abby Steele at Whilton Marina on 01327 842577.

 

Kind regards

 

Janet"

 

I have not included email or postal address or direct dial phone number for obvious reasons. I have also not bothered to contact anyone at the marina and am disgusted they should have used the magazine to pass on their message. I'm obviously a tad tetchy!

[Tuscan]

A quick update for everyone.

 

I met with a director of the marina in question on Thursday afternoon of last week. He agreed to refund my deposit but refused the survey fee, or even part of it. Oddly, when I asked for a written confirmation that the funds would go back into the account they came from, I was presented with a page to sign that stated I was acknowledging receipt of the refund. I asked for the page to be re-written to clearly indicate that the refund would be made the next day. It was made within 24 hours.

 

Before I left the marina, I was told the contract was between the marina and myself and not an individual seller! That would back up what a lot of people have said and was certainly something I should have noticed and questioned to start with.

 

The director also pointed out that social networks and the like were an area that they were concerned about and asked if I could remove my postings. I said I was not prepared to do that but would say we had a meeting which was productive and amicable and led to a refund of my deposit.

 

Since then I received an email from the editor of Towpath Talk. It read as follows:

 

"Dear Roy

 

We have been in contact with Whilton Marina regarding your problems surrounding the purchase of a narrowboat. We understand this has now been settled amicably but please could you contact Abby Steele at Whilton Marina on 01327 842577.

 

Kind regards

 

Janet"

 

I have not included email or postal address or direct dial phone number for obvious reasons. I have also not bothered to contact anyone at the marina and am disgusted they should have used the magazine to pass on their message. I'm obviously a tad tetchy!

 

 

 

 

I am glad this has been resolved , there are plenty of good boats out there, also have a look at the apolloduck website.happy hunting

[Guest]

I am glad this has been resolved , there are plenty of good boats out there, also have a look at the apolloduck website.happy hunting

 

and some obviously better brokers.....

 

I love the bit about being concerned about social media and forums being an area of concern to them - I bet it is...