Fridges

[boathunter]

As I can't find any ref to gas fridges on this forum by searching it must be a no-no?

 

Is this because of boat safety issues or are they just too expensive to run?

 

In a camper I'd laugh at the idea of a 12v fridge which will typically flatten a leisure battery overnight so gas is the way to go. I'm puzzled.

 

Thanks for reading.

[OldGoat]

As I can't find any ref to gas fridges on this forum by searching it must be a no-no?

 

Is this because of boat safety issues or are they just too expensive to run?

 

In a camper I'd laugh at the idea of a 12v fridge which will typically flatten a leisure battery overnight so gas is the way to go. I'm puzzled.

 

Thanks for reading.

 

I'm biased - we once hired a boat with a gas fridge and just didn't keep anything really cool - let alone

make some ice.

 

Gas fridges are inefficient and generate a lot of heat (surprisingly that's part of the principle) - so you've got to get that away.

For occasional use in a camper, I suppose they make some sense - particularly as its CAMPING and it's supposed to be roughing it (haha).

 

On a boat you expect a bit more comfort - more a cottage afloat rather than a tent. More sensibly you may have more people onboard (needing more "services") than in a camper and places to buy food are more spread out in time terms meaning that you'll need more space to store cooled food. Gas fridges are invariably small.

 

 

 

BUT then I like my comforts.

[naema sufi]

As I can't find any ref to gas fridges on this forum by searching it must be a no-no?

 

Is this because of boat safety issues or are they just too expensive to run?

 

In a camper I'd laugh at the idea of a 12v fridge which will typically flatten a leisure battery overnight so gas is the way to go. I'm puzzled.

 

Thanks for reading.

 

we have a shoreline which is 12v, makes ice and keeps stuff cold, if batteries (4) get low, it gives up until you power up and turn it on again. My old ma had a gas fridge 50 years ago and yeah they give out heat to make the cold, mad innit. I think there are big issues on safety with gas fridge and lot of safety things as with gas fires and gas water heaters. i charge the batteries via the gene for an hour and half twice a day. That covers 8 hours tv water pumps fridge computer shower and mobiles

 

http://www.caravanqld.com.au/media/7195840/safety%20alert%20-%20portable%20gas%20refrigerator%20users.pdf

[sueb]

I'm biased - we once hired a boat with a gas fridge and just didn't keep anything really cool - let alone

make some ice.

 

Gas fridges are inefficient and generate a lot of heat (surprisingly that's part of the principle) - so you've got to get that away.

For occasional use in a camper, I suppose they make some sense - particularly as its CAMPING and it's supposed to be roughing it (haha).

 

On a boat you expect a bit more comfort - more a cottage afloat rather than a tent. More sensibly you may have more people onboard (needing more "services") than in a camper and places to buy food are more spread out in time terms meaning that you'll need more space to store cooled food. Gas fridges are invariably small.

 

 

 

BUT then I like my comforts.

 

There are many comments on gas fridges on this forum because I have made them. I don't recognise the comments above. On our first boat we had an electric fridge. I wasn't allowed to have it on at night because it used too much electric. I couldn't have any ice and we couldn't leave it on if we left the boat for a couple of days.

Our next boat we got a gas fridge and it is bliss. I can keep frozen food whether I am on the boat or off. I have ice whenever I want and I don't have to worry about the state of our batteries. We rarely run the engine when we aren't moving. Gas fridges are ACE

[MtB]

I'm biased - we once hired a boat with a gas fridge and just didn't keep anything really cool - let alone

make some ice.

 

Gas fridges are inefficient and generate a lot of heat (surprisingly that's part of the principle) - so you've got to get that away.

 

Erm... electric fridges do exactly the same.

 

Mike

[boathunter]

So apart from the carbon monoxide worry, is there a Boat Safety Certificate angle?

I too haven't had a problem with gas fridges, they seem more efficient in my experience. Trying to run anything from 12V that will flat the battery in 12 hours seems like a non-starter?

 

£25 for 6 weeks fridge use I can't comment on having never left one on for more than a few days. I usually get through a camping season on a small bottle of gas with cooking too and spread over a year that's neither here nor there. Running one continuously would be a new experience and might well be an unwelcome surprise. From the lack of them mentioned in any boat adverts there must be a good reason. Either they're likely to kill you or exhorbitant to run or both?

 

I did note my mate who's boat I stayed on had his fridge door ajar and said it was cold enough to keep stuff outside and forgo the fridge (12v). I was too pissed to persue it any further.

 

There are many comments on gas fridges on this forum because I have made them. I don't recognise the comments above. On our first boat we had an electric fridge. I wasn't allowed to have it on at night because it used too much electric. I couldn't have any ice and we couldn't leave it on if we left the boat for a couple of days.

Our next boat we got a gas fridge and it is bliss. I can keep frozen food whether I am on the boat or off. I have ice whenever I want and I don't have to worry about the state of our batteries. We rarely run the engine when we aren't moving. Gas fridges are ACE

Encouraging Sue, but do you have any idea how much gas your fridge guzzles?

 

The heat given off doesn't seem a bad thing, but I wonder about the condensation from a permanent gas thing?

[bizzard]

If not on a landline gas fridges are far far more economical to run than any electric fridge and much much more peaceful too for all and sundry as no engines or generators are needed to run it via batteries ect. If anyone reckons they're inefficient then its in need of some simple servicing, ie cleaning the flue, burner and its gas jet.

[Theo]

Erm... electric fridges do exactly the same.

 

Mike

 

Not quite.

 

All gas fridges and some (Electrolux) fridges require a litttle boiler to work. They operate on principle called "absorption" and give off quite a lot of heat in addition to that which is extracted from the cool compartment. This explains the principle

 

Nearly all electric fridges operate on the compression principle, compressing a gas to liquefy it (giving off its latent heat of vaporisation) then squirting the liquid through a nozzle into a low pressure pipe where the liquid evaporates (absorbing the latent heat of vaporisation for the cooling cabinet). This is much more efficient. they do give off a bit of heat, but hardly any more than is taken from the cabinet.

 

Nick

Edited October 7, 2012 by Theo

[sueb]

Gas fridges are silent but electric fridges make a noise, as does the engine when you need to charge the batteries. Probably not a problem if you are on hook up

[Robbo]

As I can't find any ref to gas fridges on this forum by searching it must be a no-no?

 

Is this because of boat safety issues or are they just too expensive to run?

 

In a camper I'd laugh at the idea of a 12v fridge which will typically flatten a leisure battery overnight so gas is the way to go. I'm puzzled.

 

Thanks for reading.

 

You can't get a room sealed gas fridge that's why they are not recommended for boat use.

[mrsmelly]

As I can't find any ref to gas fridges on this forum by searching it must be a no-no?

 

Is this because of boat safety issues or are they just too expensive to run?

 

In a camper I'd laugh at the idea of a 12v fridge which will typically flatten a leisure battery overnight so gas is the way to go. I'm puzzled.

 

Thanks for reading.

 

Gas fridges are great and very very safe. End of.

 

Tim

[alan_fincher]

It is not hard to find consumption figures for gas fridges used on boats.

 

Try the Dometic web-site for example, where they give the daily consumption in grams for each type.

 

Typically it is about 250 grams a day, so a 13KG Propane will last about 42 days if it were just running the fridge.

 

Although some boat owners claim they are expensive to run, many of those boat owners seem happy to sit at mooring for hours at a time, either with their engine running, or a generator screaming away just to recharge their batteries. Many power audits on this forum, and elsewhere, have revealed that on many boats an electric fridge can account for about half of all electricity consumed. So, when not moving, some people are charging batteries for twice as long as they might be, if they instead had a gas fridge. I doubt if you then compare costs, to include not just the petrol or diesel, but also the fact that generators pack up, and engines wear out, that burning £25 of gas in 42 days is such a poor deal!

 

Oh and don't believe they don't get cold - ours is very elderly, but still has to be restricted to a low setting, if it is not to get excessiovely cold. I suspect that means it isn't actually using as much gas then as the manufacturer suggests.

[Robbo]

Gas fridges are great and very very safe. End of.

 

If room sealed, shame they stopped making them.

[alan_fincher]

You can't get a room sealed gas fridge that's why they are not recommended for boat use.

You could for a while, and a few on the forum have one, but apparently no longer.

 

Non room sealed models have never been recommended for boat use by Electrolux/Dometic, but once upon a time they were universal, (just as well as boats had almost no batteries, charged by low power dynamos, not alternators, and powering a 12 volt fridge would then have been a nigtmare!).

 

The non-room sealed ones were universal in every hire boat for decades, and many private boaters still use them. At one stage the BSS regs did not allow fitting them as a "new fit", but the BSS have relaxed that in the 2005 version of the regs. The BSS would still prefer we fit electric ones, but have never (to my knowledge) issued good stats that highlight the perceived dangers of gas one. Clearly badly maintained/installed/used there is a possibility of CO poisoning. However (for balance) in just a short trip yesterday, I saw at least 3 boats with portable generators set up, and running, located in the rear hatch ways of trad style boats, and no doubt some of these were replenishing batteries being run down by electric fridges. I suspect the occupants of some of these boats are at greater risk from that practice, than we are from our gas fridge.

 

Oh and a solid fuel stove is a non-0room sealed device that can produce far more CO than a gas fridge, but people don't seem to have the same paranoia about fitting those do they!....

[Robbo]

 

Oh and a solid fuel stove is a non-0room sealed device that can produce far more CO than a gas fridge, but people don't seem to have the same paranoia about fitting those do they!....

 

Most would realise if the chimney was blocked on a solid fuel stove, if that happened on a gas fridge then you wouldn't (and most people wouldn't check). If the flue got blocked on a room sealed device it doesn't matter as the fumes still can't enter the cabin.

[alan_fincher]

Most would realise if the chimney was blocked on a solid fuel stove, if that happened on a gas fridge then you wouldn't (and most people wouldn't check). If the flue got blocked on a room sealed device it doesn't matter as the fumes still can't enter the cabin.

It is unfortunate that the BSS people don't publish any statistical data they collect on such matters - I have regularly made that point on here, and directly to Rob Maclean who sometimes posts on here.

 

I certainly get the impression there have been far more deaths associated with solid fuel stoves than gas fridges, (having heard of loads of the former, but knowing of no specific cases of the latter), but you can't directly compare the two, as there are far move stoves in use than gas fridges, (although in summer of course, there may well be more gas fridges running than stoves actually in use - well any "summer" except this one!....)

[nb Innisfree]

 

The non-room sealed ones were universal in every hire boat for decades, and many private boaters still use them. At one stage the BSS regs did not allow fitting them as a "new fit", but the BSS have relaxed that in the 2005 version of the regs. The BSS would still prefer we fit electric ones, but have never (to my knowledge) issued good stats that highlight the perceived dangers of gas one. Clearly badly maintained/installed/used there is a possibility of CO poisoning. However (for balance) in just a short trip yesterday, I saw at least 3 boats with portable generators set up, and running, located in the rear hatch ways of trad style boats, and no doubt some of these were replenishing batteries being run down by electric fridges. I suspect the occupants of some of these boats are at greater risk from that practice, than we are from our gas fridge.

 

Oh and a solid fuel stove is a non-0room sealed device that can produce far more CO than a gas fridge, but people don't seem to have the same paranoia about fitting those do they!....

 

I don't think it's the CO issue that stops people fitting LPG appliances but the possibility of a build up of an undetected gas leak resulting in a big bang.

[Robbo]

I don't think it's the CO issue that stops people fitting LPG appliances but the possibility of a build up of an undetected gas leak resulting in a big bang.

 

It's the room sealed bit that's the key, as you can still install gas devices such as water heaters.

 

I certainly get the impression there have been far more deaths associated with solid fuel stoves than gas fridges,

 

Don't have any stats, but I think most of the deaths from solid fuel stoves are due to poor installation (too near stuff, etc).

[alan_fincher]

It's the room sealed bit that's the key, as you can still install gas devices such as water heaters.

Since the 2005 revision of the BSS regs, you can once again install non-room sealed fridges and non-room sealed instant water heaters.

 

AFAIK there is no greater regulation of one by the BSS than the other, (note I'm talking only what the BSS require, not considering for example anything RCD might say about a new build boat....).

 

The only difference is that in BSS terms the BSS office try and encourage us towards electric fridges as safer, without any longer actually saying we can't fit a gas one. Obviously electric water heaters are not viable on a boat connected to a shoreline, so they can't easily do the same with those.

 

Don't have any stats, but I think most of the deaths from solid fuel stoves are due to poor installation (too near stuff, etc).

I thought there had been several CO related deaths due to solid fuel stoves, but, as I say, the data to back this up is only published piecemeal, it deems.

 

Some of these may also be due to people blocking up intended fresh air vents, (or hanging heavy curtains that effectively do the same), to try and keep draughts out. If such practices take place, you become far more at risk from anything on the boat that can harm you if fumes end up where they shouldn't.

[boathunter]

Hmmm. Gas is heavier than air and in a camper you must have a hole in the floor to allow for any leaking gas to fall out. You can't do that in a boat! And the vibrations in a boat aren't helpful with avoiding gas leaks.

 

I have a mooring lined up, but no 240V at present. With a bit of luck 240V will get laid on before I move there and I'll be able to have a shed with a fridge in it, but I won't be sitting on the mooring 365 days a year. As it looks like I'd only need the fridge in the boat while cruising, a 12V fridge could be a better solution for me. But I do like to keep my options open.

 

Thanks for the enlightening posts.

[bizzard]

To be honest there's not much point in using any fridge in the depth of winter, my gas fridge will be turned off soon, indeed it was last night as the temperature dropped away considerably, just keep fresh food and milk in a bottomless box with vent holes and lid on the cold steel fore-deck like i do.''a wheeze from last year''. Most people do a shop every 'day or two or three' and if fresh food and milk is always bought will remain fresh if kept cool on the bilges bottom plate,preferably on a Marble slab, so no absolute need for a fridge during the summer either really.

Edited October 7, 2012 by bizzard

[ditchcrawler]

If room sealed, shame they stopped making them.

Gas fridges in houses are not room sealed. Boats today have a huge amount of ventilation. The flame is not much bigger than a candle but they must be serviced regularly.

Ian Graham who use to build Wilderness boats built a conversion for gas fridges that made them acceptable to use on a boat with a petrol engine and lots of old Wildernesses were fitted with them.

 

Brian

Sitting at Irthlingborough running his engine to charge his batteries to put back what the electric fridge used last night

 

I don't think it's the CO issue that stops people fitting LPG appliances but the possibility of a build up of an undetected gas leak resulting in a big bang.

You can geta gas leak feeding a cooker alsoa cooker has probably5 of 6 valves that can leak.

[blackrose]

Hmmm. Gas is heavier than air and in a camper you must have a hole in the floor to allow for any leaking gas to fall out. You can't do that in a boat! And the vibrations in a boat aren't helpful with avoiding gas leaks.

 

That's an argument for not having LPG on your boat at all, not simply an argument against a gas fridge.

 

So if you do have gas on your boat the potential for leaks isn't really a valid reason to avoid a gas fridge or any other gas appliance, assuming they are all properly installed.

Edited October 7, 2012 by blackrose

[smileypete]

I don't think it's the CO issue that stops people fitting LPG appliances but the possibility of a build up of an undetected gas leak resulting in a big bang.

Er don't think so!!!

 

How many cubic metres of air in a narrowboat saloon/lounge, 20m3 say?

 

Lethal dose of CO is around 0.1%

 

So you only need 20 litres of CO in there to cause death.

 

Now a gas fridge can burn up to 250g of propane a day, creating up to 450 litres of CO2 gas.

 

You don't need a lot of CO instead of CO2 from a malfunctioning gas fridge to reach a lethal dose!!!

 

I think Gibbo knew of someone who died from CO from a fridge.

 

So a decent CO alarm, preferably with a digital display is an absolute must with a gas fridge, stove etc. There are CO testing aerosols for testing them too.

 

Not trying to scaremonger, just to get people with gas fridges, solid fuel stoves, to get a CO alarm.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited October 7, 2012 by smileypete

[Tiger 1057]

Not trying to scaremonger, just to get people with gas fridges, solid fuel stoves, to get a CO alarm.

Would suggest the same for a house too.

Just as an aside. When we moved into our house a few years ago it had a gas fire in the lounge. Having lived in the ubiquitous flat/house in London for many a year I wanted a real fire so ripped the gas fire out. Then I noticed that the previous occupant had blocked the outside wall vent presumably to stop drafts

In other words check your ventilation

Edited October 7, 2012 by Tiger 1057