IWA Calls For Action On 'Continuous Moorers'

[carlt]

One may not agree with others thoughts, but what alternatives can you think of without creating more hardships?

The "Regional Cruising Licence" that has been suggested in the past seems to be a reasonable compromise where someone who doesn't want a fixed mooring, or can't find one, but also wants to stay within a smaller area than a ccer can pay extra and then must fulfil the requirements of a boater with a home mooring, rather than those of a ccer.

[Ally]

The "Regional Cruising Licence" that has been suggested in the past seems to be a reasonable compromise where someone who doesn't want a fixed mooring, or can't find one, but also wants to stay within a smaller area than a ccer can pay extra and then must fulfil the requirements of a boater with a home mooring, rather than those of a ccer.

A sensible and reasonable solution!

[carlt]

A sensible and reasonable solution!

Then I'd publicly flail anyone who didn't abide, with the Cat o' nine tails, before eviscerating them, stretching them on the rack and finally beheading them and displaying their head on a stake at the entrance to the CRT offices.

 

Thank you for recognising my reasonable approach to this problem.

[Tuscan]

Then I'd publicly flail anyone who didn't abide, with the Cat o' nine tails, before eviscerating them, stretching them on the rack and finally beheading them and displaying their head on a stake at the entrance to the CRT offices.

 

Thank you for recognising my reasonable approach to this problem.

 

 

If you can moor and not move without paying what makes us think that thes same guys will pay for a regional license to moor and not move. I think everybody is going claim to be a special case. We still seem to be confusing the social requirements of housing and society's obligations and the rules and regulations of the canal system which we all sign upto when buying a license. Talking in the bar at Shackerstone festival tonight there didn't appear to be much sympathy to the notion that CRT should recognise CMers and provide for them. The consensus was more that travelling south from Milton Keynes the number of stationery boats was increasing (and not just cheaper boats) and that these residents were becoming increasingly intolerant of the speeds of passing boats. I am not saying this is right or wrong just reflecting the views expressed.

[n.b.Goldie]

And punish those of us that abide by the cc rules because of the misbehaviour of those that don't?

 

I think not.

 

Because of the behaviour of a minority alcohol is banned in our town center. Sometimes the majority does have to put up with an inconvenience because of the misbehaviour of a minority!

 

Regards

Ditchdabbler

 

If you can moor and not move without paying what makes us think that thes same guys will pay for a regional license to moor and not move. I think everybody is going claim to be a special case. We still seem to be confusing the social requirements of housing and society's obligations and the rules and regulations of the canal system which we all sign upto when buying a license. Talking in the bar at Shackerstone festival tonight there didn't appear to be much sympathy to the notion that CRT should recognise CMers and provide for them. The consensus was more that travelling south from Milton Keynes the number of stationery boats was increasing (and not just cheaper boats) and that these residents were becoming increasingly intolerant of the speeds of passing boats. I am not saying this is right or wrong just reflecting the views expressed.

 

Pretty much spot on.

 

Regards

Ditchdabbler

[carlt]

If you can moor and not move without paying what makes us think that thes same guys will pay for a regional license to moor and not move.

 

I wasn't suggesting that they moor and not move.

 

I was suggesting that they had to abide by the same requirements that someone with a home mooring (or some place they can put their boat off the CRT system) had to.

 

The legislation would have to be altered to give CRT the teeth to enforce any new arrangements.

[Tuscan]

I wasn't suggesting that they moor and not move.

 

I was suggesting that they had to abide by the same requirements that someone with a home mooring (or some place they can put their boat off the CRT system) had to.

 

The legislation would have to be altered to give CRT the teeth to enforce any new arrangements.

 

 

But Lady Muck is describing their situation as desperate, sleeping in unmarked vans, under bridges, etc etc, no money for diesel to move or buy a new licence say priced at garden mooring rates. So I guess my point is still if I can stay and pay nothing why would I pay to move albeit not very far. However I know quite a few who are struggling to pay marina and CRT mooring fees who would leap at the chance to come out of the marina or off the CRT mooring and moor on the towpath, moving occasionally for a cheaper deal so be careful what you wish for.

[carlt]

But Lady Muck is describing their situation as desperate, sleeping in unmarked vans, under bridges, etc etc, no money for diesel to move or buy a new licence say priced at garden mooring rates. So I guess my point is still if I can stay and pay nothing why would I pay to move albeit not very far.

You describe those who choose their lifestyle and those who have no choice in the same sentence.

 

I make a distinction and I believe the system should too.

 

However I know quite a few who are struggling to pay marina and CRT mooring fees who would leap at the chance to come out of the marina or off the CRT mooring and moor on the towpath, moving occasionally for a cheaper deal so be careful what you wish for.

That doesn't bother me at all.

 

I like boats and actively go out of my way to look at lines of them, boating past them is a pleasure.

[Guest wanted]

A poem by Christopher Wedgewood:

 

 

If I am me to me

Am I me to you

Myself is me as I see,

But to you myself is you

Be yourself you say

So this is what I do

I try so hard to find me

But me just disappoints you

That couldn't be you, you say

You would never act that way

So I search once more

To find myself

And lose the me I found before,

The search is hard,

I can't find me anywhere,

Then I look at you and see

The me you wanted me to find was you,

But I am me and only me

I'm sorry if this upsets you

If only I could make you see

How important I really am to me

Maybe then,

To you I could finally be me.

 

There are so many variations to areas and demographics that we need to be so much more dynamic in finding solutions. I would support the regional licence idea from Carl, in fact i would buy one and leave the Marina and continue to work my job without the current fear I have about not fulfilling the rules.

[Tuscan]

A poem by Christopher Wedgewood:

 

 

If I am me to me

Am I me to you

Myself is me as I see,

But to you myself is you

Be yourself you say

So this is what I do

I try so hard to find me

But me just disappoints you

That couldn't be you, you say

You would never act that way

So I search once more

To find myself

And lose the me I found before,

The search is hard,

I can't find me anywhere,

Then I look at you and see

The me you wanted me to find was you,

But I am me and only me

I'm sorry if this upsets you

If only I could make you see

How important I really am to me

Maybe then,

To you I could finally be me.

 

There are so many variations to areas and demographics that we need to be so much more dynamic in finding solutions. I would support the regional licence idea from Carl, in fact i would buy one and leave the Marina and continue to work my job without the current fear I have about not fulfilling the rules.

 

 

I think that was my point so would many others currently in marinas and on towpath moorings, so this could have the reverse effect to that intended perhaps. It's ok for you or whoever you or I may think you are but this does not address the issue of those that can't afford it but does solve a problem for those that can afford it but would now be able to pay less.and the linea park will become a reality.

[Guest wanted]

I think that was my point so would many others currently in marinas and on towpath moorings, so this could have the reverse effect to that intended perhaps. It's ok for you or whoever you or I may think you are but this does not address the issue of those that can't afford it but does solve a problem for those that can afford it but would now be able to pay less.and the linea park will become a reality.

 

What about a limit to the amount of regional licences issued per geographical area? Perhaps with a waiting list?

 

Oh eck. Now how would that be inforced?

 

I know, maybe we could just leave it how it is....?

[Tuscan]

It's a toughie, there are regional variations in the Marsworth area near Tring which is a popular spot there seems to be a reasonable enforcement and I know people that regularly rotate in the near area. I suspect in London the numbers have grown and enforcement is harder. Probably the reality is that CRT can not afford to enforce or to fight local councils, residents etc.

[Tam & Di]

I used to be a continuous cruiser for a while and have been a liveaboard (with a mooring) for some ten years until 2006 but see that the problem of continuous moorers has grown so large that now is the time to say 'enough is enough' and no boat should be on the network unless it has an approved, registered mooring.

 

Regards

Ditchdabbler

 

But that was where BW had gotten to in 1995. In their Bill they had Clauses which required every boat owner to have an approved mooring. The Lords committee was persuaded that there was a group of people who cruised around the system and who did not therefore require one, and the "Continuous Cruiser" licence came about. Unfortunately the concept was poorly defined, and it allowed a loophole that BW was never able to get on top of for a much more substantial group to take over sections of the towpaths.

 

I've no idea if CRT will be able to grasp the nettle to deal with it in the way BW should have in the late 90s (or before that, of course).

 

Probably one of the major antagonisms is the point made in several posts now that the craft are often poorly moored, either in ignorance or because of the terrain. This means that even a boat travelling at a reasonable speed past them can give them grief and leads rapidly to a "bloody moorers" - "bloody boaters" dichotomy.

[cotswoldsman]

I used to be a continuous cruiser for a while and have been a liveaboard (with a mooring) for some ten years until 2006 but see that the problem of continuous moorers has grown so large that now is the time to say 'enough is enough' and no boat should be on the network unless it has an approved, registered mooring.

 

Regards

Ditchdabbler

 

I do enjoy a good laugh first thing in the morning. How large is the problem? What would you do with the boats that do not have a registered mooring? Sounds a bit like the old "I pay for something so everyone else should"

[Mike Tee]

BW – sorry – CaRT, take a big lump of all mooring fees whether you are in a marina, or at the bottom of a garden. Obviously the proportion differs, I believe they can take as much as 50% out of a marina. And the garden, well they get all of it.

 

Change the system in a radical way. Abolish the bit they get from the various moorings and add it to the license. At least that way everybody pays the minimum, and if you want a fancy marina mooring you pay the marina for the privilege.

 

Second radical change – everybody learns how to tie up a boat, and we go to the French system – nobody slows down for anything! At least I could then cruise from Braunston down the GU in reasonable time AND have some fun doing it. Would be worth fitting wing mirrors to look at the carnage behind me.

 

Actually, it is probably an unsolvable problem. The various practises have crept in over tens of years and are not going to be solved in my cruising lifetime. (Not that long as I am receiving a small income from Dept of Pensions now!)

[sueb]

On stretches that are overcrowded I would padlock a lock and make the passage bookable. Thus any boat that wanted to go onto the Lee & Stort would have to book and obtain a permit for a permitted length of time. This would stop boats moving on with the intention of staying. Boats would be permitted to leave but would again have to have a permit to return. The permit would be freely available to those with a mooring in the area.

This would stop the problem getting worse then a strategy needs to be put in place to deal with those that have no mooring and don't move.

[alan_fincher]

BW – sorry – CaRT, take a big lump of all mooring fees whether you are in a marina, or at the bottom of a garden. Obviously the proportion differs, I believe they can take as much as 50% out of a marina. And the garden, well they get all of it.

 

?????

 

Usually, if no special situation applies, the end of garden rate taken by BW/CaRT is based on half that of the nearest unserviced towpath moorings.

 

Obviously if you own the garden CaRT will take all of that amount, (because there is nobody else who could be!), but if the "garden" is owned by someone else, their charge will be on top of the CaRT EOG fee. Locally here, when I looked into it, the owner part of the fee was generally higher than the BW part - i.e. such moorings overall cost more than an unserviced towpath mooring nearby.

 

I think, (but am not absolutely certain) that it would be very unusual if you were paying mooring fees to a marina that the amount CaRT took would be anything approaching the 50% you mention, (although the connection charge can certainly be a significant part of your total mooring fee).

[Biggles]

Having my morning skim of this thread I am gob smacked that theire should be suggestions of different rules for different arrears and persons.

 

If the current rules are not being adhered to just imagin how much more rule breaking would occur while a case was ruminated over if new ones were added on.

 

All the current batch of suggestions I've just read would add more boats to the CM situation.

 

The rules are quite simple as they are, they just need aggressive enforcement. Perhaps a start could be an additional question on the CC application form.

 

Is there any part of the CC licence rules you do not understand? So that when challenged the form can be quoted back and their argument of "I didn't understand" will be negated.

 

I suspect that CaRT will shy away form enforcement as it will draw unpopular press, certainly in its initial year or two.

 

I suspect also the "Slow down brigade" that never move their boat have lost all perspective of boat speed above 0 mph.

[sueb]

Cart will never afford to enforce the current rules so enforceable rules need to be brought in. Stopping more boats joining the overcrowded parts of the system could be done relatively cheaply.

[BEngo]

BW – sorry – CaRT, take a big lump of all mooring fees whether you are in a marina, or at the bottom of a garden. Obviously the proportion differs, I believe they can take as much as 50% out of a marina. And the garden, well they get all of it.

 

 

 

The standard connection charge for Non-BWML marinas is 9% of the mooring fees, based on a fixed, agreed mooring length and assuming all moorings are always full. (BW Marina Development guide) For BWML owned marinas all of the profit should eventually end up with CART, so maybe they could be said to get as much as 50% for these. I rather doubt it though as there is significant capital cost to building a marina and the interest etc on that capital as well as upkeep costs will eat quite a bit of gross profit.

 

N

[jelunga]

Having my morning skim of this thread I am gob smacked that theire should be suggestions of different rules for different arrears and persons.

 

If the current rules are not being adhered to just imagin how much more rule breaking would occur while a case was ruminated over if new ones were added on.

 

All the current batch of suggestions I've just read would add more boats to the CM situation.

 

The rules are quite simple as they are, they just need aggressive enforcement. Perhaps a start could be an additional question on the CC application form.

 

Is there any part of the CC licence rules you do not understand? So that when challenged the form can be quoted back and their argument of "I didn't understand" will be negated.

 

I suspect that CaRT will shy away form enforcement as it will draw unpopular press, certainly in its initial year or two.

 

I suspect also the "Slow down brigade" that never move their boat have lost all perspective of boat speed above 0 mph.

Have a virtual greenie. I also cannot agree with the liberal brigade who want rule changes to accomodate the Cmer staffel.

It is simple. If you want to live on a boat without a home mooring, then you kbey the rules. If you do not want to obey the rules, do not live on a boat and go away.

It is not the function of BW AKA CaRT to provide facilities for social housing and cheap moorings. The former is the job of the housing authority. If you cannot afford a mooring then claim housing benefit.

I suspect, and I totally accept I have no evidence, that a lot of Cmers want to keep below the radar to avoid paying incone tax, NI, Council Tax avd registering as an elector. They want to receive all the advantages of health care, street lighting, maybe education, defence, roads, footpaths, public transport etc but they do not want to pay for it.

They want the rest of society to pay for their life.

Consider :-

If they are happy to be part of society paying their way, what is to stop them, if they genuinly cannot afford to pay for a mooring, to claim housing benefit etc?

As I understand it, if eligable, you can claim for your license fee and mooring fee on housing benefit. At least part will be paid.

What justifiable circumstances are there to prevent this?

Ok, London seems to be a special case where the fees for both flats and moorings are ridiculous.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

?????

 

Usually, if no special situation applies, the end of garden rate taken by BW/CaRT is based on half that of the nearest unserviced towpath moorings.

 

Obviously if you own the garden CaRT will take all of that amount, (because there is nobody else who could be!), but if the "garden" is owned by someone else, their charge will be on top of the CaRT EOG fee. Locally here, when I looked into it, the owner part of the fee was generally higher than the BW part - i.e. such moorings overall cost more than an unserviced towpath mooring nearby.

 

I think, (but am not absolutely certain) that it would be very unusual if you were paying mooring fees to a marina that the amount CaRT took would be anything approaching the 50% you mention, (although the connection charge can certainly be a significant part of your total mooring fee).

 

BW/CART has Network Access Agreements with most marinas. These are based on total yearly mooring fees and assume the marina is full. The figure is 9%. However, other areas exist where BW gets money out of marinas, particularly at the planning stage.

 

However, 9% is a very significant sum when other marina overheads are taken into account. This is particularly so if the marina is not full!

[jenlyn]

I have an email dating back to 2010 from Geoff Whyatt, stating that BW were concentrating on License evasion rather than overstaying. So, BW now has a problem with overstaying "of their own making". It's not a problem they can blame us for, or expect us to put right. I see nothing wrong with the present system, other than, it needs to be enforced. I feel that anyone meeting CRT representatives should point this out to them. Ideas of charging more money to have special licenses is not going to help someone already struggling!

Affordable moorings are needed. If some of you feel that someone is getting something your not, tough! Go and have a cry somewhere. If this involves means testing, so be it, i dont see that as being unfair. Some people need help, and as human beings, we have an obligation to look after those not doing as well as ourselves. I hear some of you shout loud enough about the rich and the banks not caring, or considering us mere mortals, yet your quite happy to come on here and kick the boater beneath you in the nuts!

[blodger]

I do not know the make up of the membership of IWA which has resulted in it seeing CMERs as a priority for CART. The priority for CART with reduced funding needs to stay focussed on maintaining the infrastructure. Indirectly, this may alleviate the perceived CMER problem in that dredging and bank work would create more places to moor properly so more places to go to without Visitor Mooring signs and limitations above the 14 day.

[Tuscan]

I have an email dating back to 2010 from Geoff Whyatt, stating that BW were concentrating on License evasion rather than overstaying. So, BW now has a problem with overstaying "of their own making". It's not a problem they can blame us for, or expect us to put right. I see nothing wrong with the present system, other than, it needs to be enforced. I feel that anyone meeting CRT representatives should point this out to them. Ideas of charging more money to have special licenses is not going to help someone already struggling!

Affordable moorings are needed. If some of you feel that someone is getting something your not, tough! Go and have a cry somewhere. If this involves means testing, so be it, i dont see that as being unfair. Some people need help, and as human beings, we have an obligation to look after those not doing as well as ourselves. I hear some of you shout loud enough about the rich and the banks not caring, or considering us mere mortals, yet your quite happy to come on here and kick the boater beneath you in the nuts!

 

 

I don't see why this should be the responsibility of CRT, I agree support should be offered by the council / social services as present. If you need help you should accept if that means being housed in a council funded bedsit and coming off water then so be it, or finding a "residential" in a marina elsewhere paid for by HB. If we don't think society of local or national government is doing enough then get off the social pedestal , campaign and vote for change. If the majority of mere mortals could be bothered to do this or felt it as an important cause change would be effected.