Pre-purchase survey

[smudge837]

Hi all. I had a good weekend looking for and at NBs. Without naming names, one brokerage informed me that they do their own survey to speed things up. (This is a big firm, not fly by night.) On a boat I am interested in, they had a Hull survey and it looked very good, the few points mentioned had been remedied. when i asked about a full survey they said I could ask their guy and he might do it cheaper as he has already done the hull.

 

I was taught that if you want a survey you get it and pay it yourself. Am I being a bit retentive or is this a normal practice in brokerage world?

 

I do like the boat but! I don't really want to spend 40k ish without being sure she is right.

 

So I call upon you here to set me straight, (she is very nice) should I stay or should I go?

 

 

cheers

 

Smudge

[LoneWolf]

dont rely on a survey that the broker or seller has had done; you have no comeback should things not be as it says.

[AidanLincs]

dont rely on a survey that the broker or seller has had done; you have no comeback should things not be as it says.

 

Definitely. The survey is a deliverable arising from the contract between the surveyor and the person who paid for it, unless there is some bizarre collateral contract wording in it (highly unlikely). A bad survey would give rise to an action in breach of contract - which could only be brought by the other party to the contract - and then only if that party had suffered loss or damage. If you buy a boat based on a survey prepared for someone else, and the boat turns out to be a rust-bucket, then you will have difficulty getting satisfaction.

 

Get a survey from a reputable surveyor. It'll cost you a few hundred quid, but considering how much you're about to spend I would think that it is justified.

[blackrose]

Hi all. I had a good weekend looking for and at NBs. Without naming names, one brokerage informed me that they do their own survey to speed things up. (This is a big firm, not fly by night.) On a boat I am interested in, they had a Hull survey and it looked very good, the few points mentioned had been remedied. when i asked about a full survey they said I could ask their guy and he might do it cheaper as he has already done the hull.

 

I was taught that if you want a survey you get it and pay it yourself. Am I being a bit retentive or is this a normal practice in brokerage world?

 

I do like the boat but! I don't really want to spend 40k ish without being sure she is right.

 

So I call upon you here to set me straight, (she is very nice) should I stay or should I go?

 

 

cheers

 

Smudge

 

I haven't heard of this before. Using the broker's survey sounds like it might save you some money, and in truth you'd find it difficult to get redress on any survey (even your own), if you later find out things aren't right.

 

I've seen a case where hull thickness figures were doctored on a previous owner's survey which was then used by a buyer. He ended up thousands of pounds out of pocket. I'm not suggesting that's the case here, but if you want to be a safer then I think looking at the broker's hull survey is just a reasonable basis on which to commission your own. The broker has got to pass on the cost of their survey onto someone - either you or the vendor (or a bit of both), so it might not cost that much more to commission your own.

[luctor et emergo]

It all depends. How old is the boat? Is it likely to have any hidden or expected problems? Can any of these only be found by a surveyor? Or cann you take a lead from the existing survey, and have a good lok yourself to make up your mind?

 

A survey is like an MOT, not worth diddely the day after it was done. The amount of get out clauses for the surveyor make it a mockery as it is. The only reason everybody has one , is because most insurance companies insist on one, before they will insure you.

I'm not cynical, but ......

 

Hang on, there's somebody at the door..

[alan_fincher]

A survey is like an MOT, not worth diddely the day after it was done.

I've rightly heard that comparison for a BSS certificate, but can't see it for a survey. If a survey says one day there is 5.8mm of steel at a particular point on the hull, and the statement was true then, then it is still going to be true some days later, isn't it?

 

I agree they employ lots of get out clauses, but surveyors do have some liability for the basic facts they give you. If you have commissioned your own survey, and they tell you there is 5.8mm of steel at a certain point, but you push your finger through it the day after purchase, then you do have some redress.

 

However, if you don't have your own contract with your own independent surveyor, I don't think you can do much if things go pear shaped.....

[mrsmelly]

It all depends. How old is the boat? Is it likely to have any hidden or expected problems? Can any of these only be found by a surveyor? Or cann you take a lead from the existing survey, and have a good lok yourself to make up your mind?

 

A survey is like an MOT, not worth diddely the day after it was done. The amount of get out clauses for the surveyor make it a mockery as it is. The only reason everybody has one , is because most insurance companies insist on one, before they will insure you.

I'm not cynical, but ......

 

Hang on, there's somebody at the door..

 

Never had one,never will.

 

Tim

[Teadaemon]

Using the surveyor that the broker has already got to do the hull survey may save you a little bit of money (maybe a couple of hundred quid at most), but won't save much as they still have to come out and look at the rest of boat (personally I won't do hull only surveys, as I'm then left in an awkward position if I spot something else that's wrong with the boat - do I say nothing and potentially expose myself to litigation, or do I put it in the report and effectively work at a big discount).

 

Personally, I'd recommend hiring your own choice of surveyor to do a full condition survey.

 

As a general rule, if somebody else has had a survey done on a boat that you would like to see or use for insurance purposes, the way to go about things is to contact the surveyor and ask to buy your own copy. You can normally do so at a significant discount on having the survey done again, and then have some comeback against the surveyor should they prove to be negligent. I give a 50% discount on the original survey cost, other surveyors may have a different policy (I need to charge a reasonable amount, as by selling another copy I'm extending my liability to another client, not to mention I like being able to eat food and sleep with a roof over my head).

 

Where about is the boat? (I'm guessing a bit too far from Norfolk for me to be able to give a competitive quote).

[FrigateCaptain]

Hammer test! Shame insurance company's won't stand by that method........

[Teadaemon]

Hammer test! Shame insurance company's won't stand by that method........

 

It's a part of my surveying protocol, and normally tells me just as much as ultrasonic thickness measurements.

 

As such, insurance companies will stand by it, but only when performed by somebody who's qualified to a certain standard, a member of a reputable professional body, and who carries a suitable amount of PI insurance (£2,000,000 in my case). Or would you prefer a situation where they'll take a report from anyone who decides to call themselves a 'marine surveyor'?

[johnthebridge]

Just a thought, to which I don't have the answer. If a survey is being offered with this boat as part of a contract and an inducement to buy then, should anything amiss be found, would the potential vendor not have a case against the broker, rather than the surveyor?

[AidanLincs]

Just a thought, to which I don't have the answer. If a survey is being offered with this boat as part of a contract and an inducement to buy then, should anything amiss be found, would the potential vendor not have a case against the broker, rather than the surveyor?

 

Yes, possibly, depending on how the contract was worded and whether the survey report is incorporated into the contract. But it is a level of indirection and adds a multiplicity of defences. A buyer in the situation of having bought a boat after a dodgy survey may well not prevail in an action directly against his or her surveyor, but an action against the brokerage would be even more complex and harder still to win.

[trampyjoe]

Never had one,never will.

 

Tim

 

Was going to go down the 'so you have nothing valuable to add to this thread' route but as this isn't the first time I've seen you post this I'm wondering why you've never had a survey done?

[jonathanA]

It all depends. How old is the boat? Is it likely to have any hidden or expected problems? Can any of these only be found by a surveyor? Or cann you take a lead from the existing survey, and have a good lok yourself to make up your mind?

 

Hang on, there's somebody at the door..

 

this seems like sensible advice to me. Useful to look at the brokers survey, but treat with caution, there is IMHO no subsistute for the mk1 Eyeball and of course your own knowledge and experience. if you dont know too much or are not confident that the boat has been properly looked after piece of mind would dictate a proper survey. May even be worth getting another boater to give it a once over for you too.

[Dekazer]

When we were looking at boats in The Big Broker in the midlands, they made a similar offer. It is tricky for buyers who haven't owned boats before. It can be tempting to take up an offer like this without fully exploring or understanding the ramifications.

 

If you're reasonably well off, and could afford to swallow some unexpected costs later down the line, you may choose not to bother get your own surveyor in.

 

If you have a very tight budget, or are extending yourself to get this particular boat, a survey from an independent surveyor of your choice may bring greater peace of mind.

 

Like all risk calculations, your decision is likely to be very personal and depend on your personality If you're risk averse, get your own survey and use every detail in it to haggle the price down or get remedial work done before you buy. If you like a challenge and don't mind a risk, it doesn't matter so much!

[Chris Pink]

I'm not understanding this.

 

If I buy a boat from a broker and they say "here's a survey we commissioned it says the hull is not less than 6mm" that's legally binding statement under the Sale of Goods act and it would be a very foolish broker indeed who lied about this ( not to mention conspiracy to defraud by the surveyor.

 

I think it's a good idea indeed. It covers the one area that nobody can cover without Mrs Melly's X-ray eyes. It would enable a reasonably boat savvy person to make an evaluation of a boat.

 

If you buy a boat from someone expecting to be conned then you're buying from the wrong person.

Edited May 23, 2012 by Chris Pink

[Richard10002]

I'm not understanding this.

 

If I buy a boat from a broker and they say "here's a survey we commissioned it says the hull is not less than 6mm" that's legally binding statement under the Sale of Goods act and it would be a very foolish broker indeed who lied about this ( not to mention conspiracy to defraud by the surveyor.

 

I think it's a good idea indeed. It covers the one area that nobody can cover without Mrs Melly's X-ray eyes. It would enable a reasonably boat savvy person to make an evaluation of a boat.

 

If you buy a boat from someone expecting to be conned then you're buying from the wrong person.

 

1) Has the Sale of Goods Act been tested in this respect? i.e. a broker, not a seller, being sued successfully for a misrepresentation like this? I would have thought the transaction would be covered by Agency Law, where the brokers statements can be taken as being made by the seller, and it is the seller who is liable for any misrepresentation. Not sure whether the costs of such an action would be worth it, nor how successful it would be likely to be. I'm asking the question, rather than doubting what you say - I don't know the answer.

 

 

2) the more the tears go by, the more I expect people selling me something to be trying to con me in some way. Only today I went to buy a vacuum cleaner and was told that the model I wanted was end of line, and the only one available was the well used display model, but no discount was available. When I intimated I wouldn't bother, as I didn't want a second hand model, he miraculously conjured up a new one in its box which could be collected on Saturday. Clearly an attempt to rid the store of its mucky old display model at an unused price.... And I'm sure someone less forceful than me will fall for it.

 

Why have a survey if we aren't expecting to conned, or at least expecting to be sold something where everything may not be as suggested ...... I agree that this might be in ignorance, rather than with the knowledge of a seller. There are plenty of smooth talking con men out there, and which of us know anything about the sellers of our boats?

 

I also agree that a recent survey by a reputable surveyor is probably a good indication of condition..... But the inexperienced would still be best advised to commission their own survey.

[Chris Pink]

I disagree. I wouldn't have a survey because I expected to be conned. I'd have one because I was in ignorance of the results.

 

The alternative is to believe that the surveyor commissioned by the broker is lying. That's a bigger leap to me than the belief that the survey would be truthful.

 

This, I hasten to add, is entirely different to a private vendor proferring a 6 year old insurance survey with no provenance. Although I have bought a boat on just such a survey and was satisfied it was genuine ( as it turned out)

 

All vacumn cleaner salespersons are thieves - didn't your grandmother teach you?

[David Mack]

Just a thought, to which I don't have the answer. If a survey is being offered with this boat as part of a contract and an inducement to buy then, should anything amiss be found, would the potential vendor not have a case against the broker, rather than the surveyor?

 

Possibly, but I think the broker is just an 'arranger', not the vendor's agent. As such, if there has been any misrepresentation then I think your main recourse is against the vendor, not the broker.

[RLWP]

Possibly, but I think the broker is just an 'arranger', not the vendor's agent. As such, if there has been any misrepresentation then I think your main recourse is against the vendor, not the broker.

 

That raises a whole load of interesting issues. Who are you buying the boat off - the broker or the owner? Who is commissioning the survey? If your contract is with the owner and the broker's survey is misleading, who will take who to court?

 

My head hurts now, it's too hot to think complimcated thinks

 

Richard

[jaywalker]

Look at the money you are thinking of spending. Get your own survey done, worth it for the piece of mind. I got mine done by Eddie Freeman, very pleaant, very helpful, he picked up every little flaw and explained everything as he went along, wasnt even bothered by my constant questions.

Also helps in the negotiating over the price.

[boots]

Depends on your experience, we were/are new to this game and wouldn't hesitate to get our own survey done. We found the 'conversation' with the surveyor was just as useful as the actual written document itself.

[GUMPY]

Depends on your experience, we were/are new to this game and wouldn't hesitate to get our own survey done. We found the 'conversation' with the surveyor was just as useful as the actual written document itself.

I am definitely not new at this and I would still get a hull survey, however 15 years ago I might not have bothered but things have changed in the usage of boats and many spend a fair time connected to shorelines with no protection.

[Danica]

(I need to charge a reasonable amount, as by selling another copy I'm extending my liability to another client, not to mention I like being able to eat food and sleep with a roof over my head).

 

 

How is your liability extended ? Surely the results of your survey are statements of fact and/or your professional opinion and apply to the boat itself irrespective of who the owner is or may be ?

[Teadaemon]

How is your liability extended ? Surely the results of your survey are statements of fact and/or your professional opinion and apply to the boat itself irrespective of who the owner is or may be ?

 

My terms and conditions (along with those of virtually every other surveyor in the business) state that the survey (for which I retain the copyright) is solely for the use of the person commissioning it (and paying the bill), and specifically exclude any liability to anybody else. As these have been approved by my PI insurance company (indeed they were lifted verbatim from their suggested terms and conditions), I'm pretty confident that they would stand up in court if necessary.

 

This is why a survey done for somebody else (like a broker or a previous owner) has very little value - whilst it can give you a general idea of the condition of the boat at the time of the survey, it would be nigh on impossible to prove that the surveyor was liable to anyone other than the person commissioning the survey should they have been negligent.