sh!t fuel - ghastly price

[BlueStringPudding]

Pish in it, probably.

[Gibbo]

IMO that is provided that he tells you (posted notice etc.) before he puts it in your tanks.

 

Agreed.

[station tug]

or maybe the yard that inforce a 60/40 split do that to off set there own fuel for the hire fleets..if the private boaters are paying extra tax they dont have to???

[MtB]

IMO that is provided that he tells you (posted notice etc.) before he puts it in your tanks.

I wonder what he would do if he didn't tell you and you told him to take it out again?

 

 

Hmmm I bought some diesel from a yard this summer who, when asked what price per litre, just gave me a price (about £1.20 IIRC - we are talking Thames prices here!) Once I'd bought my fifty quid's worth (topping up our stupidly small tank) he then asked me what proportion I was declaring at.

 

I suspect this yard is selling at a price where they can just about turn a wafer-thin profit at 100% propulsion. This would mean anything less than 100% propulsion declared by the punter represents the profit margin. Once the sale had been concluded I think this yard calculated backwards to see how much they made from the sale and apportion the duty. Interesting approach, possibly simplifying things for them.

 

Regarding the thread title "sh!t fuel - ghastly price", I suspect the OP is on shaky ground stating Kate Boats sell sh!t fuel given that no other Kate Boat diesel customers have surfaced with the same problem. Far more likely the sh!t was already in the OP's tank and got stirred up by refilling it. I think dissing them like this in public is pretty unfair when the OP has only assumptions and no proper evidence.

 

From my limited dealing with them Kate Boats seem like a decent firm and have a good reputation on the cut. Comments on here telling them how they should run their business are out of order in my view. It's their business and their choice to turn away potential customers who want to declare awkward splits. I expect they have decided the staff time that gets soaked up selling diesel to the Awkward Squad is better spent looking after the main business, the hire fleet.

 

Mike

[Gibbo]

From my limited dealing with them Kate Boats seem like a decent firm and have a good reputation on the cut. Comments on here telling them how they should run their business are out of order in my view. It's their business and their choice to turn away potential customers who want to declare awkward splits. I expect they have decided the staff time that gets soaked up selling diesel to the Awkward Squad is better spent looking after the main business, the hire fleet.

 

Have a greenie for this bit.

[BlueStringPudding]

 

 

From my limited dealing with them Kate Boats seem like a decent firm and have a good reputation on the cut. Comments on here telling them how they should run their business are out of order in my view. It's their business and their choice to turn away potential customers who want to declare awkward splits. I expect they have decided the staff time that gets soaked up selling diesel to the Awkward Squad is better spent looking after the main business, the hire fleet.

 

Mike

 

I think what you'll find that much of this thread has been about how OTHER boatyards do their business and how the majority of contributers to this thread think it's better than the way Kate Boats are doing theirs; rather than telling Kate Boats how to do their business.

 

They can do it any legal way they like, and suffer open criticism and low diesel sales as a result, if that's what they want to do. It's their choice entirely.

 

And by "awkward split" you mean anyone truthfully declaring they're anything other than Kate Boats' predefined 60/40? unusual interpretation of the word awkward.

Edited August 21, 2011 by BlueStringPudding

[adam1uk]

or maybe the yard that inforce a 60/40 split do that to off set there own fuel for the hire fleets..if the private boaters are paying extra tax they dont have to???

 

We filled up at a base with a very large hire fleet earlier in the summer, which would accept any split. The guy in the office told me that HMRC send him a list each month of the recommended split, for boats with and without diesel heating, and suggested we use that split. For a boat with diesel heating, he said the recommended split in June was 27% propulsion 73%domestic. He said that the propulsion per centage, as recommended by HMRC, never got much above 30%, and in the winter would be much lower.

 

It would be interesting to know whether HMRC sends this monthly recommendation to other hire fleets, and what split hire companies declare for their hire boats.

[Ex- Member]

What ever the split, it isn't complicated a simple 2 sums on a calculator, anyone with a decent till can set this up on 2 or 3 separate buttons, all the tax calculations are then separated on the till roll.

 

I can't see the point in HMRC giving averages. Even If I was CC'ing I could easily claim over 90% domestic If I only travelled 10 lock miles every 14 days.

 

Those outlets that insist on a 60/40 split are actually doing the clever boaters who will declare much less for propulsion a big favour as these 60/40 outlets are keeping up a good average tax intake for propulsion that will keep the HMRC happy.

[bizzard]

It seems to me that a lot of marina owners are a complacent bunch anyway,especially if they're reaping in ''loads a money'' from extensive moorings.They seem to carry out any other service like selling diesel with reluctance and do these things under sufferance.This is my observation anyway. bizzard

[BlueStringPudding]

Who needs a till? Narrowboat sellers of diesel like Nb Towcester let you declare your own and they work it out with a pen and a calculator on a handwritten invoice. Can't be that difficult

[David Schweizer]

I think what you'll find that much of this thread has been about how OTHER boatyards do their business and how the majority of contributers to this thread think it's better than the way Kate Boats are doing theirs; rather than telling Kate Boats how to do their business.

 

They can do it any legal way they like, and suffer open criticism and low diesel sales as a result, if that's what they want to do. It's their choice entirely.

 

And by "awkward split" you mean anyone truthfully declaring they're anything other than Kate Boats' predefined 60/40? unusual interpretation of the word awkward.

We used to moor within a few hundred yards of Kate Boats at Bidingbury Wharf, and I got the distinct impression that they did not really want to sell diesel to passing boaters, and only had the pumps for the Hire boats, share boats and the other boats moored there, all of whom had monthly accounts.

 

The proceedure for payment was so painful, the cash register was in the office at the top of the Yard, not on the wharf side, so the operative had to take the money, all the way up the hill to the office, and then walk all the way back with the change and reciept, which took at least five minutes. No wonder they always asked how much do you want before they stared to fill up.

Edited August 21, 2011 by David Schweizer

[mayalld]

It's no simpler than setting a fixed rate at 80/20 or 90/10 so why give the government more revenue under the guise of making things simpler for customers? It's not. It's not fair and it's legality is questionable

actually if isn't HMRC have confirmed in writing that it is legal to offer only fixed splits.

 

The only thing that is legally dodgy is making unfounded allegations of illegal practices

 

Ok, if you want to be pedantic. If I need fuel enough to have to buy it at a compulsory split of 60/40 I shall be forced to break the law if I want fuel. OK?

No

 

If they don't sell what you wish to buy you can't buy there

[cotswoldsman]

 

From my limited dealing with them Kate Boats seem like a decent firm and have a good reputation on the cut. Comments on here telling them how they should run their business are out of order in my view. It's their business and their choice to turn away potential customers who want to declare awkward splits. I expect they have decided the staff time that gets soaked up selling diesel to the Awkward Squad is better spent looking after the main business, the hire fleet.

 

Mike

 

I do not know Kate Boats have cruised past there yard and think there hire boats look nice. If you were referring to me I would not tell anyone how to run their business I can certainly give an opinion on why I would not spend my money there.

I am not sure what you mean by the awkward squad but I guess you are referring to those that simply want to declare what their diesel will be used for (as the self declaration is supposed to be). In my case during the summer 25/75 and in the winter 10/90 then I am happy to be a fully paid up member of the awkward squad!!!

 

actually if isn't HMRC have confirmed in writing that it is legal to offer only fixed splits.

 

 

 

 

 

David could you please post a copy of that letter, would save a lot of arguments.

[Ex- Member]

Who needs a till? Narrowboat sellers of diesel like Nb Towcester let you declare your own and they work it out with a pen and a calculator on a handwritten invoice. Can't be that difficult

 

Exactly my point, but you can make it even easier with a modern till.

 

 

 

[sueb]

Hubby filled up at Oxley and then found they didn't take plastic. They did run him to a cash point machine, but not the most cost effective option.

Sue

[GUMPY]

We should, however, take not that the EU thinks HMG is applying the rules incorrectly. There have been prosecutions of uk seagoing boats by Belgium I believe, for using any red diesel. The EU want us to have two tanks and only use red for heating etc. How that is going to work on a NB I do not know

 

Its sad that many are not listening

The way I see it working is that if you have one tank you use white diesel just as on the mainland.

All this bickering about splits will be a thing of the past very soon when you are all using white diesel

[Alan Saunders]

We used to moor within a few hundred yards of Kate Boats at Bidingbury Wharf, and I got the distinct impression that they did not really want to sell diesel to passing boaters, and only had the pumps for the Hire boats, share boats and the other boats moored there, all of whom had monthly accounts. . . .

 

Some years back, early 1990s, I investigated the possibility of establishing a new boat hire business. To obtain the appropriate hire licences at that time BW required that I provide 'facilities' for all boats, i.e. drinking water, pump-out, 'elsan' disposal and fuel. My capital did not allow provision of diesel fuel.

 

I later discovered that planning permission had been refused for much more comprehensive facilities than I envisaged for this prime site, including a dry-dock as well as chandlery, fuel etc. A few years on and permission was granted for new Marina dug out of a greenfield site a few miles distant, complete with a waterside hotel. Ten years on, the Marina site has road access, big advertising hoardings and little else. There are still no diesel or gas supplies within 25 lock-miles in either direction.

 

If some boatyards are still disenchanted by the original terms of their licence I have some sympathy. Not the way I would have run my business but they are still in business and I and my much better qualified and financed competitor did not even get started!

 

I have purchased 'poor fuel' in the past - draining the tanks proved it, a grey mess that failed to seperate after several weeks! Were I now a supplier I would prefer that you would give me the opportunity to resolve your problem before blacklisting me on a public website.

 

Alan

Q: Can you become a millionare by running a canal busines?

A: Absolutely, start out with £10M.

[Alan Saunders]

Exactly my point, but you can make it even easier with a modern till.

I believe my supplier, Andy Jackson on the K&A, simply produces a table of prices per litre at 5% intervals. The advertised price is for 100% non-propulsion.

 

I guess he will not be pleased if I demand, e.g. 13.35% but as I usually buy 150 - 300 litres I doubt it would be a problem.

 

Alan

[Pretty Funked Up]

{typed loads, then hit wrong button and it was alll lost grrr quick sumup}

problem gone

refuelled twice since

still no prob

on journey so no time to waste going backwards for a day to 'discuss' fuel.

it was the fixed 60/40 split that p*ed me off enough to make it mention worthy.

not a public dissing

no way a public blacklisting (leave it out will ya)

 

 

Problem will have gone soon as they get a fuel delivery and may already have.

Edited August 21, 2011 by Pretty Funked Up

[sebrof]

{typed loads, then hit wrong button and it was alll lost grrr quick sumup}

problem gone

refuelled twice since

still no prob

on journey so no time to waste going backwards for a day to 'discuss' fuel.

it was the fixed 60/40 split that p*ed me off enough to make it mention worthy.

not a public dissing

no way a public blacklisting (leave it out will ya)

 

 

Problem will have gone soon as they get a fuel delivery and may already have.

 

So you're backtracking on what you originally said, but you're not man enough to apologise?

 

Hmmm.

[Charles]

No comment

[Pretty Funked Up]

So you're backtracking on what you originally said, but you're not man enough to apologise?

 

Hmmm.

How did you come to that conclusion? wtf?

[mayalld]

I do not know Kate Boats have cruised past there yard and think there hire boats look nice. If you were referring to me I would not tell anyone how to run their business I can certainly give an opinion on why I would not spend my money there.

I am not sure what you mean by the awkward squad but I guess you are referring to those that simply want to declare what their diesel will be used for (as the self declaration is supposed to be). In my case during the summer 25/75 and in the winter 10/90 then I am happy to be a fully paid up member of the awkward squad!!!

 

 

 

David could you please post a copy of that letter, would save a lot of arguments.

 

Of course I can.

 

Oh, look, I already did ages ago!

[Tim]

Be interesting if all fuel retailers only sold at 60/40, where would we go?

[Theo]

I would be interested to hear how a boater calculates the split. I have done one for Theodora taking into account:

 

1. Use of the Mikuni

2. The energy taken by the alternator while cruising.

3. The heat recovered from the cooling water which runs CH and HW systems

 

The results I got were rather worse (from my point of view) than the 60:40 split so after that I just quote 60:40 and keep every one happy.

 

Nick