sh!t fuel - ghastly price

[Bobbybass]

I've got a 500 liter tank, i get mine straight out of the tanker, bulk price, ha ha ha you saps.

Nice..when you get diesel bug !!

 

bob

[BlueStringPudding]

Sounds familiar! I upset Kate Boats a couple of years ago by posting on here about what I thought of their fuel prices! Leopards and spots spring to mind

 

i can undrestand you wanting to keep things simple when running a business, but what`s so difficult in working out a formula for

various percentages for those who want to make their own declaration ? . by sticking rigidly to 60/40 all you are doing is collecting extra revenue for the government . if the tax man decided to make things simple and charged you more than he`s entitled to, i`m sure

you wouldn`t be pleased.

 

It's no simpler than setting a fixed rate at 80/20 or 90/10 so why give the government more revenue under the guise of making things simpler for customers? It's not. It's not fair and it's legality is questionable

 

I'm sorry that Pretty Funked Up has had a problem.

 

Kate Boats run 11 hire boats and 7 shared ownership boats out of Stockton Top Marina, and 13 hire boats out of the "tiny little place" at Warwick (head office - no boats there because they were all out working!) We have diesel delivered at least once a month, and have had no problems ourselves, or with any other passing trade. I would have prefered if the customer had come back to us to at least give us the opportunity to help, rather than post on a public forum.

 

The issue of the 60/40 split has been discussed at some length on this forum previously. I just need to keep it simple. We don't make a fortune out of selling diesel, [\b]there is not the quantity of passing trade on our section of the Grand Union to make it really viable, the only reason that diesel is available is that we stock it for the hire fleet.

 

Cheryl

==================

www.kateboats.co.uk

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That's not surprising, is it? Good customer service when selling diesel might change that.

[jelunga]

Ok, if you want to be pedantic. If I need fuel enough to have to buy it at a compulsory split of 60/40 I shall be forced to break the law if I want fuel. OK?

 

 

 

They don't "make" you break the law.

 

You have the option of not doing business with them, which you have taken.

 

Simple really,

[Pretty Funked Up]

That's not surprising, is it? Good customer service when selling diesel might change that.

 

LMAO - spot on

 

As far as 60/40 split goes, I for one will not stop anywhere doing that again. Just past Brewood and there was a place doing it at 71p and self declaration... no less than 5 boats waiting to refuel.

 

So I joined the queue and I'm glad I did! Its the way forward, I'm sure of it

[BlueStringPudding]

LMAO - spot on

 

As far as 60/40 split goes, I for one will not stop anywhere doing that again. Just past Brewood and there was a place doing it at 71p and self declaration... no less than 5 boats waiting to refuel.

 

So I joined the queue and I'm glad I did! Its the way forward, I'm sure of it

 

I agree. I think I know the place as I refuelled there on my way down south from Chester. And for a good price and friendly helpful service, I too would gladly queue.

[Bobbybass]

LMAO - spot on

 

As far as 60/40 split goes, I for one will not stop anywhere doing that again. Just past Brewood and there was a place doing it at 71p and self declaration... no less than 5 boats waiting to refuel.

 

So I joined the queue and I'm glad I did! Its the way forward, I'm sure of it

I took this up with HMRC a long time ago..and was told.. it was 'simples'...that if I kept a record book...and noted that I was 'forced' to wrongly declare...I could just declare a different percentage next time to adjust the overcharge.If it was ever queried by them...and your records were accurate...they 'may' take action against the boatyard...(I bet !!)

 

That..is what I was told.

 

bob

[Gibbo]

...they 'may' take action against the boatyard...(I bet !!)

 

They can't. The boatyard have done nothing wrong.

[luctor et emergo]

**snip**

Just past Brewood and there was a place doing it at 71p and self declaration... no less than 5 boats waiting to refuel.

 

So I joined the queue and I'm glad I did! Its the way forward, I'm sure of it

 

At that price you want ask when they last had a delivery...

[OldGoat]

They can't. The boatyard have done nothing wrong.

 

 

I disagree -

The instructions from HMRC to RDCO's - (Registered Dealers in COntrolled Oils) are that the purchaser is to make a declaration as to the split required. Therefore it is not up to the dealer to make a mandatory split.

It is not a matter of "invitation to treat" - the revenue works at a higher point of law than general contract.

The dealer is in breach of his terms of regulation from HMRC and in theory could / should lose his licence.

 

However, HMRC are unlikely to take any action, or Trading Standards either.

 

The only practical course of action is for IWA or RBOA is to bring pressure on recalcitrant dealers.

That will only happen if enough people make a fuss - which I think is highly unlikely....

[BlueStringPudding]

Take heed, Kate Boats. And give your staff a calculator.

[ditchcrawler]

I took this up with HMRC a long time ago..and was told.. it was 'simples'...that if I kept a record book...and noted that I was 'forced' to wrongly declare...I could just declare a different percentage next time to adjust the overcharge.If it was ever queried by them...and your records were accurate...they 'may' take action against the boatyard...(I bet !!)

 

That..is what I was told.

 

bob

Did you get in writing

[Bobbybass]

Did you get in writing

Of Course NOT...!

 

But he did make it sound logical...that you only pay... overall for propulsion...and its in order to adjust if you over estimate.... providing you have good records....BUT...has anybody been asked for records ?

 

bob

[ditchcrawler]

Of Course NOT...!

 

But he did make it sound logical...that you only pay... overall for propulsion...and its in order to adjust if you over estimate.... providing you have good records....BUT...has anybody been asked for records ?

 

bob

I think you will find that HNRC have said that boaters don't need to keep any records, even if you did keep records you can't prove what you have used the diesel for and that they are right.

 

Secondly as I understand it you are declaring what you intend to use the diesel you are buying for.

 

But at the end of the day no one HMRC, you or the wife can prove what you have used that diesel for so do what you think is right. I do what my conscience tells me is OK a lot of people say I am a fool, but I do what I think is correct.

[Keeping Up]

At that price you want ask when they last had a delivery...

 

No need I'm sure, assuming it was Turners at Wheaton Aston they have a very high turnover.

[Midnight Rider]

Has anyone ever had their percentage questioned?

 

My theory is that no one at HMRC has ever looked at a return form & never will.

 

I think that it was all done to placate the EU.

[n.b.Goldie]

Has anyone ever had their percentage questioned?

 

My theory is that no one at HMRC has ever looked at a return form & never will.

 

I think that it was all done to placate the EU.

 

Spot on!!!

 

Regards

Ditchdabbler

[Ex- Member]

HMRC Are not in the least interested, It's almost impossible for them to make a case against anyone, unless someone's stupid enough to keep records. they cannot make you keep records either.

 

If you only pay the cheaper cost for fuel on the canals, You can always say you use white diesel from garages for propulsion, how can they prove otherwise. And even if they could the costs involved in any such investigation would far outweigh any sum their ever likely to recover.

 

If people keep harassing HMRC for clarification and all the other nonsense, they'll get fed up and we'll all end up having to use White top price derv + 20p per litre additional mark up for outlets on canals.

[jelunga]

We should, however, take not that the EU thinks HMG is applying the rules incorrectly. There have been prosecutions of uk seagoing boats by Belgium I believe, for using any red diesel. The EU want us to have two tanks and only use red for heating etc. How that is going to work on a NB I do not know

[Hairy-Neil]

Just past Brewood and there was a place doing it at 71p and self declaration... no less than 5 boats waiting to refuel.

 

So I joined the queue and I'm glad I did! Its the way forward, I'm sure of it

 

 

I agree. I think I know the place as I refuelled there on my way down south from Chester. And for a good price and friendly helpful service, I too would gladly queue.

 

At that price you want ask when they last had a delivery...

 

Why?

 

We're talking about Wheaton Aston garage here I believe. When I was there last week we also had to join the queue, and another boat joined before we departed. They also have a 'Red' roadside pump and were busy filling several 5 gallon cans in a van as I went to pay. Remarking to the friendly proprietor that they were busy at that price, he replied, "We refueled 19 boats yesterday, two short of of our record."

 

I think there is little fear of it being old stock...

Edited August 21, 2011 by Hairy-Neil

[soldthehouse]

Has anyone ever had their percentage questioned?

 

My theory is that no one at HMRC has ever looked at a return form & never will.

 

I think that it was all done to placate the EU.

You old cynic you, have a badge and welcome to the club

[cotswoldsman]

I must be getting "older and wiser" as it no longer bothers me if a Boat Yards want to sell at 60/40 I just do not buy there. A few years ago I would have argued but now can not be bothered life is to short. When my tank is about half empty I stop at the first Boat Yard that allows me to do self declaration and fill up normally about £130 - £150 and while there most probably spend and extra £20 - £30 on extra stuff I might require, actually my last stop I spent and extra £180 as I needed quite a lot of stuff. My mate that I cruise with spent £160 on fuel and £300 on batteries and arranged a engine service for the next day £140 so from one boat yard allowing us to make self declaration we spent a total of about £900. I woulod certainly not want to spend that in a Boat Yard that is to lazy to work out a declaration.

Edited August 21, 2011 by cotswoldsman

[Ex- Member]

I must be getting "older and wiser" as it no longer bothers me if a Boat Yards want to sell at 60/40 I just do not buy there. A few years ago I would have argued but now can not be bothered life is to short. When my tank is about half empty I stop at the first Boat Yard that allows me to do self declaration and fill up normally about £130 - £150 and while there most probably spend and extra £20 - £30 on extra stuff I might require, actually my last stop I spent and extra £180 as I needed quite a lot of stuff. My mate that I cruise with spent £160 on fuel and £300 on batteries and arranged a engine service for the next day £140 so from one boat yard allowing us to make self declaration we spent a total of about £900. I woulod certainly not want to spend that in a Boat Yard that is to lazy to work out a declaration.

 

Very good point indeed.

 

 

 

[BlueStringPudding]

Excellent point. If boatyards selling diesel at a fixed split had any business gumption at all, they'd think about the extras they could be getting from the customers drawn in by their good diesel prices. But by their own admittance they don't hence diesel not being a big earner for them. They deserve everything they don't get!

Edited August 21, 2011 by BlueStringPudding

[Gibbo]

I disagree -

 

However you'd be wrong.

 

It is indeed up the customer to declare the split.

 

But the seller is perfectly within his rights to say "I will only sell my diesel to you if you have the split I want you to have because I can't be bothered otherwise".

 

There is no law in this country that can force a seller to sell anything on terms other than those which he chooses. If he refuses to sell to you on your terms (ie your declared split) he is perfectly entitled to do so.

[ditchcrawler]

However you'd be wrong.

 

It is indeed up the customer to declare the split.

 

But the seller is perfectly within his rights to say "I will only sell my diesel to you if you have the split I want you to have because I can't be bothered otherwise".

 

There is no law in this country that can force a seller to sell anything on terms other than those which he chooses. If he refuses to sell to you on your terms (ie your declared split) he is perfectly entitled to do so.

IMO that is provided that he tells you (posted notice etc.) before he puts it in your tanks.

I wonder what he would do if he didn't tell you and you told him to take it out again?