Moorings Management Proposals

[mayalld]

He's not saying that CCers on the L&S shouldn't have to move, he's saying they shouldn't have to do the entire length of the L&S every 12 weeks when it would be entirely possible to legitimately CC and do it once in a year.

 

The large neighbourhoods defined for the L&S contain many 'places' as defined in the CC guidance. There's no need for this. They could require people to cruise the entire length, spending no more than 8-10 weeks in any one neighbourhood over the course of a year, and achieve the same result with considerably less toing-and-froing, ie less traffic.

 

"There's no need for this"

 

An interesting point, and one which I would like to consider.

 

There would indeed have been no need for this, had people played by the rules. Sadly, when people persistently push the envelope and won't play by the rules, relying on claims of ambiguity, it becomes inevitable that the rules will be tightened so as to remove any ambiguity, and the rules become more draconian.

[Cosmic]

But there isn't a need for it - they can enforce the rules they already have.

 

They can already refuse to licence boats whose owners fail to satisfy them that they will move every 14 days. Shouldn't they be trying that strategy first, before bringing in more and more draconian rules that wind everyone up and quite possibly won't be enforced anyway?

[Sir Nibble]

But there isn't a need for it - they can enforce the rules they already have.

 

They can already refuse to licence boats whose owners fail to satisfy them that they will move every 14 days. Shouldn't they be trying that strategy first, before bringing in more and more draconian rules that wind everyone up and quite possibly won't be enforced anyway?

It appears to me that BW has decided that they can best combat the problems caused by simply eradicating liveaboard boaters who don't either have a mooring or move around the system. They have no interest in making the percieved offenders move time and time again chasing the same selfish few. It appears to me that they intend to make this lifestyle untenable and simply make a whole class of boaters extinct. There are some who call this genocide or ethnic cleansing, to them I say have some respect, I hope you never encounter genocide or ethnic cleansing. Anyway, no "I told you so" but I have long forecast that BW would eventually say "the hell with it" and wave a big stick and there is no one to blame but the chancers.

[Lady Muck]

but I have long forecast that BW would eventually say "the hell with it" and wave a big stick and there is no one to blame but the chancers.

 

I don't agree with BW's tactics, but I agree with you on this point - this has been coming for a long, long time and have not exactly been taken by surprise. Anyone who has been following the London user group meetings would probably agree with me.

 

Shame though, coz we all suffer.

 

ETA - I don't know if this is underhand tactics at work, but I've always dld'd and read the user group meeting minutes for London, why have they stopped uploading them to their website?

Edited February 28, 2011 by Lady Muck

[Sir Nibble]

I don't agree with BW's tactics, but I agree with you on this point - this has been coming for a long, long time and have not exactly been taken by surprise. Anyone who has been following the London user group meetings would probably agree with me.

 

Shame though, coz we all suffer.

Which begs the question, who is the real "enemy"? And is it in the least bit fair that Sally Ash or anyone else should be accused of deviding boaters when we have long had a division between those who do as much boating as they can because they love it, and those who do the minimum required by their own fingers crossed reading of the law, and in many cases until the issue came to a head didn't even do that. We on this forum have so long argued the point that the division is clearly apparent. I think that for good or ill the party is over.

[Lady Muck]

Which begs the question, who is the real "enemy"?

 

BW They didn't bother to enforce when the river was quieter because no cared and no one complained.

 

And is it in the least bit fair that Sally Ash or anyone else should be accused of deviding boaters when we have long had a division between those who do as much boating as they can because they love it

 

I think trying to divide us is an underhand tactic, yes, it really pees me off when people do it, not just Sally Ash. When buying my leccy cards it was pointed out to me, 'bet that makes you angry, them mooring on the towpath there, you having to pay all that money and them getting away with it.'

 

Er, no actually, you moor on the towpath on the Lee London, you get nothing, pay for nothing. I pay for my mooring, I get my water tap, cheap electricity, secure car parking and a nice garden.

 

Trying to divide the boating community is a cheap shot , AFAIC, I really don't care how many lock miles my fellow boaters clock up, I just feel fortunate to be able to boat as much as I do and fortunate to have the mooring that I have.

Edited February 28, 2011 by Lady Muck

[ymu]

Well said, LM.

 

BW appears to be going from no effort at enforcement to making the rules as difficult as possible to follow, not to mention coming up with a ridiculously expensive solution which they have no hope of recouping the costs for, unless they implement this in a hopelessly ineffectual way.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

I have to agree with Lady Muck as well.

 

What boaters tend to forget is that all BW executive directors are paid bonus based on 'corporate performance'. This includes what they call the leisure stream which is mostly mooring and licence fees from boaters.

 

In addition, Sally Ash's boss Simon Salem (Marketing director) is set yearly targets for extracting income from boaters.

 

For years, BW allowed licence evasion because it was not cost effective to enforce preferring above inflation licence increases and the 'water world' effect to increase revenue.

 

Similarly, BW has not enforced the 1995 act in relation to boaters without home moorings. In 15 years they have only brought about five cases to court. Again, in BW terms, it is not cost effective to do so.

 

What is happening on the Lee is all about money. BW want income from Olympic moorers with IWA providing volunteers to make it profitable. However, more importantly, they wish to introduce the concept of boaters paying for casual mooring on the pretext of fining over stayers.

 

With numbers of licences being static and moorings auctions not providing the required revenue BW is grasping at straws.

 

BTW, I started boating on the Lee in 1960 at Dobbs Weir and seem to recall that the Lea spelling was little used then.

Edited February 28, 2011 by Allan(nb Albert)

[Lady Muck]

 

I can't wait til the stoppage is over and I'm back from Milan, coz I'm headed up the Lee & Stort for a fortnight or so!

Edited February 28, 2011 by Lady Muck

[jenlyn]

BW are just trying to screw more money from us, thats what all this is about, nothing else

[marmaduke]

Hi all,

 

I've made up a list of London MPs where the canal and river goes through, with their contact details and social networking preferences.

 

I think we should contact them all for two reasons that I can think of, one being that they should have been contacted by BW as part of the consultation, as it will affect the local communities they represent (is this correct?). The other reason, is the fall out that this may cause, homeless London boaters once self sufficient, will become a burden on the already strained housing situation in their constituencies, not to mention an increase in application for benefits.

 

Probably a good idea to tweet, email and old fashion letter.

 

Cheers,

 

Marmaduke

 

-------

 

Emily Thornberry, Labour MP for Islington South and Finsbury

http://www.emilythornberry.com/contacts/

http://twitter.com/#!/EmilyThornberry

emilythornberrymp@parliament.uk

Emily Thornberry MP, House of Commons, London, SW1A 0AA

 

Rushanara Ali, Labour MP for Bethnal Green and Bow

http://www.rushanaraali.org/index.php?id=5

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Rushanara-Ali/37684209618

Rushanara Ali MP, House of Commons, London, SW1A 0AA

 

Meg Hillier, Labour MP for Hackney South and Shoreditch

http://www.meghillier.com/contact/

http://twitter.com/#!/MHillierMP

meghilliermp@parliament.uk

Meg Hillier MP, House of Commons, London, SW1A 0AA

 

Diane Abbott, Labour MP for Hackney North and Stoke Newington

http://www.dianeabbott.org.uk/contact.aspx

ruby.morgan@parliament.uk

Diane Abbott MP, House of Commons, London, SW1A 0AA

 

David Lammy, Labour MP for Tottenham

http://www.davidlammy.co.uk/contact.htm

http://www.twitter.com/davidlammy

David Lammy MP, House of Commons, London, SW1A 0AA

 

Andy Love, Labour MP for Edmonton

http://www.andylovemp.com/contact.aspx

andylovemp@aol.com

Andy Love MP, Broad House, 205 Fore Street, Edmonton, London, N18 2TZ

 

Nick de Bois, Conservative MP for Enfield North

http://www.nickdebois.com/contact/contact-nick

http://twitter.com/nickdebois

nick.debois.mp@parliament.uk

Nick de Bois MP, House of Commons, London, SW1A 0AA

 

Jim Fitzpatrick, Labour MP for Poplar and Limehouse

http://www.jimfitzpatrickmp.co.uk/contact.htm

fitzpatrickj@parliament.uk

Jim Fitzpatrick MP, House of Commons, London, SW1A 0AA

 

Frank Dobson, Labour MP for Holborn and St Pancras

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/frank_dobson/holborn_and_st_pancras

Frank Dobson MP, House of Commons, London, SW1A 0AA

 

Karen Buck, Labour MP for Westminster North

http://www.karenbuck.org.uk/

http://twitter.com/#!/KarenBuckMP

Karen.buck.mp@parliament.uk

Karen Buck MP, House of Commons, London, SW1A 0AA

 

Sarah Teather, Lib Dem MP for Brentford

http://www.sarahteather.libdems.org.uk/en/

sarah.teather@brentlibdems.org.uk, teathers@parliament.uk

Sarah Teather MP, 1 High Road, Willesden Green, London, NW10 2TE

[LoneEcho]

 

I can't wait til the stoppage is over and I'm back from Milan, coz I'm headed up the Lee & Stort for a fortnight or so!

 

 

You will have to pop in to the new marina as I missed you waving when I passed you in Tottenham.

Edited March 1, 2011 by LoneEcho

[marmaduke]

Hot off Twitter, just saw this:

 

British Waterways is inviting people to apply to become volunteer lock keepers on a London canal. http://j.mp/i7rYMJ

 

Now, I wonder which type of person would be best suited to this position...

Edited March 1, 2011 by marmaduke

[matty40s]

Hot off Twitter, just saw this:

British Waterways is inviting people to apply to become volunteer lock keepers on a London canal. http://j.mp/i7rYM

Now, I wonder which type of person would be best suited to this position...

 

Not sure what you're getting at Marmaduke, but it would be a big task having to retrain on a new lock every 7/14 days......

[sheriff]

Hot off Twitter, just saw this:

 

British Waterways is inviting people to apply to become volunteer lock keepers on a London canal. http://j.mp/i7rYMJ

 

Now, I wonder which type of person would be best suited to this position...

I think haveing met you at the hanwell flight a few months ago(there was two old working boats stuck in the lock),you come across as one of those chaps who would inspire confidence and awareness in a first timer approaching a lock for the first time or someone borrowing a boat out of your marina..Take something away from the system and then put something back eh.

 

I oftern help out at locks,enroute to some place,sometimes just for the sake of it and meeting a new face,also I might gain some info about what may lie ahead or latest news etc.

[canaldrifter]

 

 

It's like NABO telling us "Join us and we'll tell you what we stand for."

 

Edited to add...Now learn the hand shake and you're in.

 

Can I just ask whether there is any particular reason that you want to harm Nabo?

 

Do you think Nabo is doing harm to boaters?

 

Tone

[marmaduke]

I think haveing met you at the hanwell flight a few months ago(there was two old working boats stuck in the lock),you come across as one of those chaps who would inspire confidence and awareness in a first timer approaching a lock for the first time or someone borrowing a boat out of your marina..Take something away from the system and then put something back eh.

 

I oftern help out at locks,enroute to some place,sometimes just for the sake of it and meeting a new face,also I might gain some info about what may lie ahead or latest news etc.

 

Thanks Sherrif, very kind of you to say, though it may not have been me. I went through the Hanwell Flight back in August...could it have been me? Remember meeting a chap from Birmingham cruising on his own, was that you?

 

This is a prime example of how boaters could work together with British Waterways.

[Mick]

What happens if a visiting CC boater stops at Rye House for 2 day, Standstead Abbotts for 2 days, Ware for 2 days, they will only have 1 day in Hertford the County Town , and cant stop again till they get into the next zone I'm sure the local shop keepers will love this idea, have they been told about the new 7 days zones

[sheriff]

Thanks Sherrif, very kind of you to say, though it may not have been me. I went through the Hanwell Flight back in August...could it have been me? Remember meeting a chap from Birmingham cruising on his own, was that you?

 

This is a prime example of how boaters could work together with British Waterways.

we was at the first lock (hanwell flight)and you moved your boat of the water point because you was waiting to go down the flight,there was a pair of working boats stuck in the lock going north.i was waiting to get water.I moored outside near your marina and you said you might see me in the bar there.

[sanctuary79]

Very helpful, thanks.

 

I will be writing some letters this week!

See some of you on Wed.

 

Hi all,

 

I've made up a list of London MPs where the canal and river goes through, with their contact details and social networking preferences.

 

I think we should contact them all for two reasons that I can think of, one being that they should have been contacted by BW as part of the consultation, as it will affect the local communities they represent (is this correct?). The other reason, is the fall out that this may cause, homeless London boaters once self sufficient, will become a burden on the already strained housing situation in their constituencies, not to mention an increase in application for benefits.

 

Probably a good idea to tweet, email and old fashion letter.

 

Cheers,

 

Marmaduke

 

-------

 

Emily Thornberry, Labour MP for Islington South and Finsbury

http://www.emilythornberry.com/contacts/

http://twitter.com/#!/EmilyThornberry

emilythornberrymp@parliament.uk

Emily Thornberry MP, House of Commons, London, SW1A 0AA

 

Rushanara Ali, Labour MP for Bethnal Green and Bow

http://www.rushanaraali.org/index.php?id=5

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Rushanara-Ali/37684209618

Rushanara Ali MP, House of Commons, London, SW1A 0AA

 

Meg Hillier, Labour MP for Hackney South and Shoreditch

http://www.meghillier.com/contact/

http://twitter.com/#!/MHillierMP

meghilliermp@parliament.uk

Meg Hillier MP, House of Commons, London, SW1A 0AA

 

Diane Abbott, Labour MP for Hackney North and Stoke Newington

http://www.dianeabbott.org.uk/contact.aspx

ruby.morgan@parliament.uk

Diane Abbott MP, House of Commons, London, SW1A 0AA

 

David Lammy, Labour MP for Tottenham

http://www.davidlammy.co.uk/contact.htm

http://www.twitter.com/davidlammy

David Lammy MP, House of Commons, London, SW1A 0AA

 

Andy Love, Labour MP for Edmonton

http://www.andylovemp.com/contact.aspx

andylovemp@aol.com

Andy Love MP, Broad House, 205 Fore Street, Edmonton, London, N18 2TZ

 

Nick de Bois, Conservative MP for Enfield North

http://www.nickdebois.com/contact/contact-nick

http://twitter.com/nickdebois

nick.debois.mp@parliament.uk

Nick de Bois MP, House of Commons, London, SW1A 0AA

 

Jim Fitzpatrick, Labour MP for Poplar and Limehouse

http://www.jimfitzpatrickmp.co.uk/contact.htm

fitzpatrickj@parliament.uk

Jim Fitzpatrick MP, House of Commons, London, SW1A 0AA

 

Frank Dobson, Labour MP for Holborn and St Pancras

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/frank_dobson/holborn_and_st_pancras

Frank Dobson MP, House of Commons, London, SW1A 0AA

 

Karen Buck, Labour MP for Westminster North

http://www.karenbuck.org.uk/

http://twitter.com/#!/KarenBuckMP

Karen.buck.mp@parliament.uk

Karen Buck MP, House of Commons, London, SW1A 0AA

 

Sarah Teather, Lib Dem MP for Brentford

http://www.sarahteather.libdems.org.uk/en/

sarah.teather@brentlibdems.org.uk, teathers@parliament.uk

Sarah Teather MP, 1 High Road, Willesden Green, London, NW10 2TE

[Phoenix_V]

Just back from the meeting

what came across very clearly is that they want to make ccing more onerous to discourage more people from jumping in

the thought of introducing some "grandfather rights" (like they did in 95)for those who had signed up to BW promises that they "only had to move back and forward between 3 locations 2 locks a time" had not occurred to them

4 extra boat checkers to be employed cost of which was not available

their legal advice was that they can implement these proposals, a copy of that advice was then requested and it seems will be produced. The Davies case draft judgment is out to the interested parties but cannot be disclosed until it is finalized which will not be in April.

On a more positive note they are convinced the framework is right but will listen to arguments to increase the No of neighbourhoods and reduce the 7 day areas also on the fees, they will also look at individual hardship cases (need to be near a school etc)

They would love to create more residential moorings but there were few locations and planning was hard (logic breakdown here if I can pay £20 a day to moor on the towpath for as long as I like why cant I do the same thing at a more reasonable £5 per day? but didnt get the chance to ask)

Meeting was poorly run by a Madge Bailey (a BW "consultant") some got to ask 3 or 4 questions/speeches others none.

I am sure someone will be along with a fuller report.

 

Oh and they do read this forum.

[Lady Muck]

Thanks for your report, I am hoping to get to the Weds one.

[Midnight Rider]

they will also look at individual hardship cases (need to be near a school etc)

I can't quite see why the need to be near a school should be a hardship case.

 

Perhaps if you choose to have children & they are of school age, then you should not be living on a boat which does not have a residential mooring.

 

Tony

[carlt]

Can I just ask whether there is any particular reason that you want to harm Nabo?

 

Do you think Nabo is doing harm to boaters?

 

Tone

but I will answer your question.

 

I think that an organisation that claims 'National' status should be more than just a club, representing a minority of boaters.

 

I believe it is wrongly claiming to represent all boaters and that its name is inappropriate, considering the tiny proportion of boat owners who are even aware of what it does (especially as, when one asks what it does you are told you have to join, to find out).

 

I mean it no harm but I reserve the right to criticise it, whenever I like.

 

If an organisation actually comes along that does represent the interests of all boaters, at a national level, they will find the correct name already taken, by a small club.

Edited March 1, 2011 by carlt

[matty40s]

I can't quite see why the need to be near a school should be a hardship case.

Perhaps if you choose to have children & they are of school age, then you should not be living on a boat which does not have a residential mooring.

Tony

 

 

because for a long time (15-25 years) BW has not only, not enforced anything, but positively encouraged boaters to live within a loose set of guidelines such as move two locks, go up the stort for a while, etc. This has allowed communities to develop, people to develop lifestyles that fit the BW regime of non-management(admitted by S.Ash) and general relaxed atmosphere.

 

BW at last have a new Patrol team, however, seem to think that instead of clamping down and getting people to stick to the rules.....

 

LETS CREATE A NEW SET....

 

I think Sally was draughted in tonight as BW realised that there was a slightly bigger reaction to their sneaked in "proposals" than they thought there would be. Damian didn't make tea, however, was an adequate note taker.

 

Sally has obviously been reading this thread and Dave's parking analogies, and was very good at quoting examples, however, it all fell down when she stated that after vacating a 14 day mooring, we should not be allowed to return for 30 minutes, like her local car park states. This was agreed to unanimously by all boaters present.

 

It was obvious from some of the answers BWSally came out with, that the lack of facilities in some of the neighborhoods, the severe overcrowding that would occur in some of the neighborhoods, and the lack of water to cruise once all the boats start the merry go round just hasn't been even considered by BW in these proposals. How you can have 2 Elsan disposal points in 7 neighborhoods defies logic, never mind the face mask.

 

Andy ,from the Northern L&S boaters group made a very clear statement of rejection of the proposals, however, included a promise of report and recommendations for BW to consider.

The Southern section(which were quite well represented as well tonight, will no doubt do similar tommorow.

 

 

BW did make it clear that the proposals for the size and number of neighborhoods was up for discussion, along with the mooring fees/overstay charges, and the size of the 7 day zones, or indeed the necessity for a 7 day zone.

 

This will run and run...........

 

The Adnams in the Red lion was spot on

 

oh, last bit I missed.

 

Apparently, although a new Act of Parliament is passed, unless a previous Act is repealed, it still stands.........so.....

 

The legal authority to charge for moorings ...........(even though the Parliamentary committee which passed the 1995 Act didn't allow it) comes from the 1962 Act......allowing for a "charge for moorings with facilities". Sally stated that facilities were the fact that you had a towpath to stick your pins in.

 

I would love to see that one go to court.