Is it actually possible to steer a narrowboat when going astern ? ! ?

[Justin Smith]

The big question....

 

Is it actually possible to steer a canal boat when going astern ?

If so how do you do it ?

[Tiny]

Yes but it depends on your boat how hard it is.

 

Most will go back but tend to move off a straight line then need to have a burst of forwards (or a push off the bank with a pole) to correct. Often you think you are backing straight if watching astern but, if you turn and look forward you might find the front end across the canal.

 

With a person at each end using poles to correct plus engine or using a bowthruster and the engine you can go back quite quick.

 

It is a question of trying it and seeing what happens. Of course any wind or current can add to the fun.

[kienik]

I spoke to a friend a few weeks ago that said what he does is to tie a bucket to a length or rope and tie the other end of the rope to the t stud on the bows, then put the boat into reverse and throw the bucket into the cut, the bucket shouldnt sink and it sorts of acts like a "drag" thingy which actually pulls the bows back in line, not sure if it works but he says so, anyone heard of this?

 

Nik

[Justin Smith]

Yes but it depends on your boat how hard it is.

 

Most will go back but tend to move off a straight line then need to have a burst of forwards (or a push off the bank with a pole) to correct. Often you think you are backing straight if watching astern but, if you turn and look forward you might find the front end across the canal.

 

With a person at each end using poles to correct plus engine or using a bowthruster and the engine you can go back quite quick.

 

It is a question of trying it and seeing what happens. Of course any wind or current can add to the fun.

 

Can you actually steer it though ?

That is to say alter its direction (without putting into forward gear) by use of the tiller ?

I`ve had a play at trying to steer whilst in reverse gear on the boats we`ve hired and I didn`t come up with a definitive answer. I seem to remember you could get at least one of them to go one way by using the tiller, but not very well in the other direction.

From memory the conventional type boat (i.e. without the disadvantage of a flat bottom) we hired on the River Ouse would steer in reverse, just not that well !

 

I spoke to a friend a few weeks ago that said what he does is to tie a bucket to a length or rope and tie the other end of the rope to the t stud on the bows, then put the boat into reverse and throw the bucket into the cut, the bucket shouldnt sink and it sorts of acts like a "drag" thingy which actually pulls the bows back in line, not sure if it works but he says so, anyone heard of this?

 

Nik

 

Sounds neat, though possibly somewhat impractical for normal manoeuvring !

I`ll have to store it in my memory banks in case we ever get caught down a narrow dead end with no place to turn round.

Edited April 17, 2010 by Justin Smith

[zenataomm]

It depends entirely upon how many people are watching .........

[Laurence Hogg]

Steering in astern depends on the set up of the rudder and the length of the swim to a large extent. Some modern boatbuilders often ignore this essential part of the boat, building with really short swims and inadequate rudder areas, also some position a rudder where a proportion of the flush actually misses it. However if you have a good swim and a boat that steers well ahead, then that should be able to steer astern.

On a windy day this will play havoc with this manouver so best try on a calm day first!

 

I steer a GU Town class motor normally and these will with practice steer astern well. They do have "balanced" rudders (If original, they have tapering cast weights one side at top oppositte side bottom of the blade) which counteract the throw of the prop, this helps.

If you are facing astern the angle of the tiller will be the direction you will go in once you reach enough momentum to feel the water "acting" against the rudder.

The whole axis of the boat changes and the turn point of a 71ft boat is more or less at the steering position. What you must watch is where the bow is going as this can drift and being so far away from the axis will do so easily. Once you feel the water working against the tiller then small adjustments will steer the boat, it is best to practice somewhere where there are no boats and a nice clear stretch.

From our moorings (Cannock Extension) we often reverse 1/3rd of a mile to the winding hole and all our crew have been taught how to do this. We have one crew member (female) who steered from Pelsall junction to her house mooring which involved two bridges and two sharp bends approx 1/2 mile without having to stop and correct, so yes it can be achieved but its down to knowing the boat characteristics and understanding the hydrodynamics which go on around the hull.

Edited April 17, 2010 by Laurence Hogg

[MartinClark]

As has been said, a lot depends on the boat. On some boats, you can steer fairly easily in reverse, whereas on other boats it can only be done with occasional bursts of forward to correct the line.

 

When reversing, spend most of the time looking back along the boat, with just occasional glances behind to make sure you aren't about to hit something. Keep the boat in alignment with the canal, possibly using some point in the distance as a reference. As soon as there is any slight veering of the front end, use the tiller to correct. When steering in reverse, point the tiller the opposite direction to where you want to go - i.e. if you want to turn towards the towpath side, point the tiller arm away from the towpath, and vice versa.

[Iain_S]

A lot depends on water depth and wind direction. Wind from the back along with deep and wide water makes it relatively easy. A crosswind can make it very difficult. The stern tends to head for shallow water, which complicates things again.

Usually, a burst of ahead is needed to keep things straight. I find the best way of dong this is without losing all backwards movement is to put on fairly high revs in forward gear, wait half a second or so, then swing the tiller hard over, neutral, centre the tiller, see what the boat is doing, then either repeat or back into reverse as appropriate

 

Iain

[Justin Smith]

It seems we`re saying that it`s possible to steer the boat once it`s got up a bit of speed in the water, what about from a dead stand ?

[carlt]

It seems we`re saying that it`s possible to steer the boat once it`s got up a bit of speed in the water, what about from a dead stand ?

No, I think we're saying if you've got a nice shaped, long swim and a good sized rudder then the boat will steer in reverse.

 

If you've got a clonecraft, built for maximum living space and minimal hydrodynamics, then you'll struggle.

 

One thing I never do, though is steer backwards with "bursts" of forwards. If you find you're losing directional control, whilst in reverse, then going into forwards gently will allow you to straighten the bows up, whilst moving backwards, all the time.

 

Learn that technique and you can turn a 70' boat, on the spot, at the winding hole, without all the rooster tails and churned up mud, that so often accompany the manoeuvre.

[DHutch]

No, I think we're saying if you've got a nice shaped, long swim and a good sized rudder then the boat will steer in reverse.

 

If you've got a clonecraft, built for maximum living space and minimal hydrodynamics, then you'll struggle.

 

One thing I never do, though is steer backwards with "bursts" of forwards. If you find you're losing directional control, whilst in reverse, then going into forwards gently will allow you to straighten the bows up, whilst moving backwards, all the time.

 

Learn that technique and you can turn a 70' boat, on the spot, at the winding hole, without all the rooster tails and churned up mud, that so often accompany the manoeuvre.

Exactly.

- It can be both impressive and entertaining to use full power, particularly with a large prop.

- However if your actaully wanting a tidy operation, a far more gentle touch works far better.

- Certainly, with a small and poorly formed prop, the rooster tail effect gets you nothing at all!

 

In short, with a modern run of the mill narrowboat, you wont get much stearage in reverse, but it is possable, and all boats can be got to go backwards in a controlled fashion.

 

 

Daniel

[Laurence Hogg]

It seems we`re saying that it`s possible to steer the boat once it`s got up a bit of speed in the water, what about from a dead stand ?

Nothing steers from a dead start forward or reverse, you need water flow against the rudder to effect steering. You must build up momentum before you can steer. That is unless you are winding and held or strapped to a fixed object/ bow onto bank etc.

[Keeping Up]

No, I think we're saying if you've got a nice shaped, long swim and a good sized rudder then the boat will steer in reverse.

 

If you've got a clonecraft, built for maximum living space and minimal hydrodynamics, then you'll struggle.

 

One thing I never do, though is steer backwards with "bursts" of forwards. If you find you're losing directional control, whilst in reverse, then going into forwards gently will allow you to straighten the bows up, whilst moving backwards, all the time.

 

Learn that technique and you can turn a 70' boat, on the spot, at the winding hole, without all the rooster tails and churned up mud, that so often accompany the manoeuvre.

I love that manoevre when you reverse smartly past a winding hole, then apply moderate forward power and rudder so that the momentum of the boat carries the bows round into the winding hole in what is virtually a "handbrake turn".

[antarmike]

I used to tie the tiller dead centre, and steer by shafting from the fore end. You are however a long way from the gear wheel if anything goes wrong.

 

I did the Wendover arm several times like this.

[Justin Smith]

Nothing steers from a dead start forward or reverse, you need water flow against the rudder to effect steering. You must build up momentum before you can steer. That is unless you are winding and held or strapped to a fixed object/ bow onto bank etc.

 

I suppose it depends what you mean by a dead stand.

It`s possible for the boat to be more or less stationary but to have water flowing over the rudder from the propeller.

Under those circumstances surely the boat will start turning straight away, i.e. without any forward movement of the boat.

 

I may have got this wrong but when in forward gear the propellor forces the water straight onto the rudder which then diverts it one way or the other to give steerage. But when in reverse gear the pulling of the water over the rudder has a far smaller effect, or indeed does it have any effect at all ?

Or is it just the water flowing past the boat that the rudder cuts into to go one way or the other as it`s going backwards ?

 

 

I used to tie the tiller dead centre, and steer by shafting from the fore end. You are however a long way from the gear wheel if anything goes wrong.

 

I did the Wendover arm several times like this.

 

Like it, very clever.

Edited April 17, 2010 by Justin Smith

[luctor et emergo]

I used to tie the tiller dead centre, and steer by shafting from the fore end. You are however a long way from the gear wheel if anything goes wrong.

 

I did the Wendover arm several times like this.

 

 

:lol: I like it, how in the days before elfin safety, these things would be done. Although your best one so far has to be climbing up the inside of the lock gate...

[nb Innisfree]

I suppose it depends what you mean by a dead stand.

It`s possible for the boat to be more or less stationary but to have water flowing over the rudder from the propeller.

Under those circumstances surely the boat will start turning straight away, i.e. without any forward movement of the boat.

 

I may have got this wrong but when in forward gear the propellor forces the water straight onto the rudder which then diverts it one way or the other to give steerage. But when in reverse gear the pulling of the water over the rudder has a far smaller effect, or indeed does it have any effect at all ?

Or is it just the water flowing past the boat that the rudder cuts into to go one way or the other as it`s going backwards ?

 

Yes boat will pivot at a standstill if in forward especially when, with plenty of revs, you steer out of the turn momentarily and then quickly into the turn, this increases the speed of pivot, well it does on our short swim 60' nb anyway before someone starts disagreeing with me.

 

But on the other hand boat will cease to be at a standstill as soon as it is put into gear which sort of contradicts what I have just said (unless there is a headwind?)

Edited April 17, 2010 by nb Innisfree

[GUMPY]

I spoke to a friend a few weeks ago that said what he does is to tie a bucket to a length or rope and tie the other end of the rope to the t stud on the bows, then put the boat into reverse and throw the bucket into the cut, the bucket shouldnt sink and it sorts of acts like a "drag" thingy which actually pulls the bows back in line, not sure if it works but he says so, anyone heard of this?

 

Nik

I use a 25kg weight on the end of a line works a treat although it really need 2 people one on the front checking that it hasn't got caught up.

[furnessvale]

The big question....

 

Is it actually possible to steer a canal boat when going astern ?

If so how do you do it ?

 

I used to reverse ALTON regularly from Furness Vale to Bugsworth Junction to save the trip to New Mills and back (with two goes at the swing bridge). Get her going and she steers well on the rudder.

 

On the other hand I have great difficulty steering SANDBACH astern for her own length.

 

Alton is 71' 6" long and Sandbach is 35ft long with a big torquey blade swinging her about. Then again, at 35ft long I can often turn her in the cut width (thank God) so who needs to go astern:-)

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[Laurence Hogg]

:lol: I like it, how in the days before elfin safety, these things would be done. Although your best one so far has to be climbing up the inside of the lock gate...

 

Did that on the S&W and got told off by a tweedy lady on a hire boat who said "You should have a crew young man" - well experienced she stood with the paddle air hole right between her feet, I got the paddle up very quick and she got wet knickers!!

 

How about putting my converted Ricky motor Neptune in to forward, setting the revs and then joining my (ex) wife and parents up front for a drink whilst underway on the Severn south of Tewkesbury, steered the boat by moving on side or tuther!! elf and safty?

Edited April 17, 2010 by Laurence Hogg

[DHutch]

I used to tie the tiller dead centre, and steer by shafting from the fore end. You are however a long way from the gear wheel if anything goes wrong.

its a bit like the reverse of me when im on my own in the mirror dingy.

- Outboard done up tight point straight backwards, throttle to full.

- Then i go to the front of the boat to get the trim right, and steer by dragging an oar on side or the other.

 

 

..., I got the paddle up very quick and she got wet knickers!!

 

 

Daniel

[antarmike]

:lol: I like it, how in the days before elfin safety, these things would be done. Although your best one so far has to be climbing up the inside of the lock gate...

When travelling forward, has anyone tried getting the Butty steerer to steer the motor, when on cross straps, by pushing the Motor's back end around with the butty's fore end, while the Motor steersman goes onto the engine hole for a sh1t? Os was that just me and my brother!

Edited April 18, 2010 by antarmike

[NB Alnwick]

No, I think we're saying if you've got a nice shaped, long swim and a good sized rudder then the boat will steer in reverse.

 

If you've got a clonecraft, built for maximum living space and minimal hydrodynamics, then you'll struggle.

 

One thing I never do, though is steer backwards with "bursts" of forwards. If you find you're losing directional control, whilst in reverse, then going into forwards gently will allow you to straighten the bows up, whilst moving backwards, all the time.

 

Learn that technique and you can turn a 70' boat, on the spot, at the winding hole, without all the rooster tails and churned up mud, that so often accompany the manoeuvre.

 

That is what we have learned - we also find that if the boat starts going off course (usually due to the prop 'walking' in the mud), we can sometimes correct it by knocking the prop out of gear and coasting but if that fails a bit of forward gear while still moving in reverse will do the job . . .

 

The secret, as far as we are concerned, is training the concentration because the earlier corrective action is taken the less likely will the boat stray from its intended course!

[alan_fincher]

When travelling forward, has anyone tried getting the Butty steerer to steer the motor, when on cross straps, by pushing the Motor's back end around with the butty's fore end, while the Motor steersman goes onto the engine hole for a sh1t? Os was that just me and my brother!

I'll dissociate myself from this, by saying I was not the brother involved !

 

I guess you need reasonable confidence that another pair are not trying the same in the other direction, and that the passing place just works out as a bridge-hole !

[carlt]

When travelling forward, has anyone tried getting the Butty steerer to steer the motor, when on cross straps, by pushing the Motor's back end around with the butty's fore end, while the Motor steersman goes onto the engine hole for a sh1t? Os was that just me and my brother!

Yes but the motor steerer didn't actually tell me he was disappearing (coffee was the reason and he was forgiven when mine was passed across).

 

Once the initial panic subsided it proved quite possible, though not ideal.