NB Tia May Electric Drive Conversion

[magpie patrick]

If any electric motor set up is still running in 50 years time, then it will have proved itself to be marginally more "eco-friendly" than my engines.

 

The costs, environmentally, of the manufacture of a new engine, electric motor, cabling, ecbs, means it is far less green than a well maintained classic engine.

 

Too much eco-garbage is claimed by those with a financial interest in you spending your hard earned on new kit, rather than any real interest in saving the planet.

 

Edited to say: Just read my post and will qualify it's confrontational stance by saying that, in 50 years time, I will happily eat humble pie if anyone is still running their original set up, though if my engine is 100 years old, by then, the electro-lump will still be playing catch-up.

 

Not absolutely sure about this case but overall carl, very, very true. Businesses conveneiently forget the eco damage in the manufacture of the product, and the gains have to be substantial to outweigh throwing away an older "less efficient" model that works.

 

These systems seem to need a fossil fuelled engine that generates electricity to power a big electric motor, so that's two engines rather than one, and while I haven't got figures I suspect that a diesel engine working through a mechanical drive uses less juice per kilowatt thrust than one generating electricity to do the same job, although I can see benefits if the boat spends a lot of time not moving say, in a long flight of locks, but even then, it's an awful lot of kit to get that saving, which could (if we were really conscious) be achieved by turning the engine off in locks

 

And I don't think the use of diesel at domestic rate will stand close scrutiny from HMRC

[carlt]

lots and lots and lots of panels

The current manufacturing methods, raw materials and useful life of photo-voltaics mean the technology has some way to go, before it can be considered eco-friendly.

[nb Innisfree]

I don't follow that argument at all.

 

If we are discussing what is the most eco friendly form of boat propulsion then we should all switch to sail immediately but, because that isn't going to happen, it is also pointless.

 

Nobody on this forum is going to be doing away with mechanical propulsion so we might as well stick to discussing that.

 

+ no more travelling to holidays or day trips etc in cars motorcycles, buses or aeroplanes be they electric or not.

 

Sounds fun

[magnetman]

That's the one!

13KW DC Generator, 4 DC motors giving an available 40KW (52HP), traction batteries to provide a buffer for the occasional 'full throttle' demand.

Normal cruising demand is around 5KW.

Quiet, very controllable, lots of torque at low revs, good fuel economy.

Plus a pair of Victron Phoenix combis for alternative battery charging / domestic 240v supply. (We are also gas free).

So for short (up to 5 hour) trips we are effectively cruising on mains electricity, which is even cheaper.

 

It works, we're pleased with it.

But I have given up attempting to convince the doubters, so please don't be offended if I don't repond!

 

How much does all hardware that cost?

[Robbo]

These systems seem to need a fossil fuelled engine that generates electricity to power a big electric motor, so that's two engines rather than one, and while I haven't got figures I suspect that a diesel engine working through a mechanical drive uses less juice per kilowatt thrust than one generating electricity to do the same job, although I can see benefits if the boat spends a lot of time not moving say, in a long flight of locks, but even then, it's an awful lot of kit to get that saving, which could (if we were really conscious) be achieved by turning the engine off in locks

 

The system of diesel generator to electric motors is nothing new, trains and a fair few ships have been using the system for years. Main benefit is 100% torque from 0rpm.

[carlt]

The system of diesel generator to electric motors is nothing new, trains and a fair few ships have been using the system for years. Main benefit is 100% torque from 0rpm.

The only reason diesel-electric is used, on trains, is that they have 100% torque at 0 rpm.

 

They are no more efficient, fuel wise, are far more complicated systems and are no more reliable than direct drive diesel locos.

 

Now electric propulsion, direct from the grid (as opposed to charging batteries) is a different matter though I'd still be interested to know how much extra all those pylons and thousands of miles of cabling cost, environmentaly, to manufacture, erect and maintain.

[Robbo]

They are no more efficient, fuel wise, are far more complicated systems and are no more reliable than direct drive diesel locos.

 

If done right a diesel-electric should be more efficient fuel wise. Although for the initial cost you'll be doing alot of traveling to recoup the difference!

 

To go back on thread and to the OP, a quick google came up with these guys http://www.ossapowerlite.com (Although there in the US).

[Redeye]

There probably won't be much diesel left in 50 years...

 

Hi guys, I go away and do some work for a couple of hours and there are a load of posts, thanks for the interest!

 

The system as conceived so far goes as follows:

 

Batteries 36 600Ah traction batteries giving a nominal bank voltage of 72V DC These should in theory based on a cruising consumption of around 4kw (Narrowboat on canals) should give me around 8 hours cruising.

 

Other benefit of the batteries is that based on using a 72v inverter at 90% capacity the battery bank is capable of giving me around about 30Kwh of domestic power so removing the need to charge the batteries every day.

 

The propulsion system has been purchased and is a 20kw AC motor wound to operate at 72V. The theory is that this motor is oversized for the maximum demand ever to be required (we are based on the Chesterfield Canal and the Tidal Trent is a regular). This is the main departure from the DC Drives used by everyone else.

 

The propulsion system will initially be piggy backed on the back of the diesel system with the spare power at cruising revs being used to regenerate charge back to the battery, one advantage of the AC system is that this regeneration is highly controllable and the controller can taper the charge as the bank voltage increases.

 

The ultimate end game is to completely disconnect the system and have a seperate generator to provide the power. This will allow the reduction in licence fee for electric only drive and will also allow me to purchase all fuel at the discounted rate of duty as fuel will be used to generate electricity and not provide propulsion.

 

I await being shot down in flames!

 

The current state of affairs is that the battery bank is installed in the boat and a Permanent Magnet Alternator has been installed in place of the domestic charging alternator to charge the 72V battery (when not cruising if required) the motor will be installed over the next couple of weeks weather permitting.

 

Thanks again for all the interest!

 

Andrew

 

With the system you stated above you can have a smaller diesel engine, which will run at a set speed, which is more efficient and easier to soundproof. I think the dutch barge Sara has this setup and the generator only needs to be used around 50% of the time when traveling for 6 hours.

 

Edit to say another plus is that as non of the diesel is used for propulsion, so you can save here as well.

 

Robbo

 

I believe that you can have a smaller diesel engine and adjust the speed to suit the charging requirements at a given time, I think we will only need to run the diesel 50% of the time and will be running it in a more efficient manner. I think the main benefit will be more efficient charging, I often cruise past boats sat on moorings running their engine to charge up domestic batteries. I havn't calculated just how inefficient this is but running a 40HP diesel to put 100A at 12v into a domestic bank is hardly efficient!

 

Thanks for the support.

 

Cheers

 

Andrew

[Redeye]

That's the one!

13KW DC Generator, 4 DC motors giving an available 40KW (52HP), traction batteries to provide a buffer for the occasional 'full throttle' demand.

Normal cruising demand is around 5KW.

Quiet, very controllable, lots of torque at low revs, good fuel economy.

Plus a pair of Victron Phoenix combis for alternative battery charging / domestic 240v supply. (We are also gas free).

So for short (up to 5 hour) trips we are effectively cruising on mains electricity, which is even cheaper.

 

It works, we're pleased with it.

But I have given up attempting to convince the doubters, so please don't be offended if I don't repond!

 

John

 

Thanks for your reply, I fully accept that there will always be doubters so fully expect some comment, I think my system is based around a similar concept as the one installed by yourself. The main difference is the choice of motor, I first looked at the DC drive systems offered by Lynch, Perm and Agni but was put off by the need to install more than one unit and the added complexity involved. It will be interesting to see how the 3 phase AC system compares once I have finished the installation, I believe that ultimately a Narrowboat will need about 12-15kw for an electric only drive but can't substantiate this yet.

 

I'll let you know how we get on.

 

Cheers

 

Andrew

[Robbo]

Thanks for your reply, I fully accept that there will always be doubters so fully expect some comment, I think my system is based around a similar concept as the one installed by yourself. The main difference is the choice of motor, I first looked at the DC drive systems offered by Lynch, Perm and Agni but was put off by the need to install more than one unit and the added complexity involved. It will be interesting to see how the 3 phase AC system compares once I have finished the installation, I believe that ultimately a Narrowboat will need about 12-15kw for an electric only drive but can't substantiate this yet.

 

Will be interested to see (so take plenty of photos!).

 

What size are your diesel tanks, if yet to be decided, get one larger than 500litres, this way you can have Kerosene delivered directly to the boat, which is cheaper than non-propulsion red diesel, make sure the generator will support it though, etc.

[Nickhlx]

John

 

Thanks for your reply, I fully accept that there will always be doubters so fully expect some comment, I think my system is based around a similar concept as the one installed by yourself. The main difference is the choice of motor, I first looked at the DC drive systems offered by Lynch, Perm and Agni but was put off by the need to install more than one unit and the added complexity involved. It will be interesting to see how the 3 phase AC system compares once I have finished the installation, I believe that ultimately a Narrowboat will need about 12-15kw for an electric only drive but can't substantiate this yet.

 

I'll let you know how we get on.

 

Cheers

 

Andrew

 

 

I too have been looking at the subject, although really only out of interest at the moment, although it could well turn into a project / conversion...

 

I was (am) following the 10 - 15 kw Dynamotor conversion "above the propshaft type" - i.e the usual diesel propulsion ( possibly with a smaller engine ) but the ability to add the two outputs together or to isolate the prop from the engine output, leaving it driving the generator alone. The article I read seemed to think that 4 kw was enough to maintain average cruising speeds - obviously more peak would be needed for manouevres / stopping or against a river flow if the engine was e.g not available for whatever reason... Battery size would be identified by how much time you wanted to have as "electric drive only".... For night cruising and when in locks, I think it is a brilliant concept....

 

Nick

Edited January 6, 2010 by Nickhlx

[Paul Evans]

.. and will also allow me to purchase all fuel at the discounted rate of duty as fuel will be used to generate electricity and not provide propulsion.

 

One poster (Justme #12) has already expressed doubts about this assumption. You will be using the fuel to generate electricity but some of the electricity will provide propulsion; without the fuel there could be no propulsion. HMRC is likely to take the view that you are using diesel to provide propulsion and will expect you to pay the full duty on the appropriate proportion.

 

You might have an argument based on the charging regime for electric motor vehicles. Currently, VAT is charged at a low rate on domestic electricity supplies. If you had an electric motor vehicle and recharged the batteries at home there is nothing requiring you to pay VAT at the full rate on that part of your consumption not used for domestic purposes. If you could show that the production of electricity for propulsion of your boat was simply a by-product of the production of electricity for domestic purposes, you might persuade HMRC that your view is correct but I wouldn't bet on it.

 

Before you decide to make a 0% domestic declaration, ask HMRC for a view on this - and make sure you get their view in writing.

[starman]

The propulsion system has been purchased and is a 20kw AC motor.....This is the main departure from the DC Drives used by everyone else.

 

The propulsion system will initially be piggy backed on the back of the diesel system with the spare power at cruising revs being used to regenerate charge back to the battery, one advantage of the AC system is that this regeneration is highly controllable and the controller can taper the charge as the bank voltage increases.

 

Debdale Wharf recently built a broadly similar narrowboat - Timewarp - with an AC motor driving the prop and a cocooned diesel generator to charge the batteries. (Tested by Canal Boat a few months ago). Might be of interest to compare with your project if you haven't already done so.

[barge sara]

I think my system is based around a similar concept as the one installed by yourself. The main difference is the choice of motor, I first looked at the DC drive systems offered by Lynch, Perm and Agni but was put off by the need to install more than one unit and the added complexity involved. It will be interesting to see how the 3 phase AC system compares once I have finished the installation, I believe that ultimately a Narrowboat will need about 12-15kw for an electric only drive but can't substantiate this yet.

 

Andrew,

Around 15KW should be plenty for a NB and at that power I think you are right to look for a single motor to suit.

 

We needed around 40KW for Sara, which for a single unit implied a very heavy and expensive motor and also some serious currents.

We went for four 48v DC Agni Lynch PM Motors mounted in a frame with Kevlar belt drives to a common shaft, which meant quite a lot of fabrication work. There are advantages though, as each motor has its own controller with the controllers paralleled only in the low current control circuits. This means that the individual motor currents are kept at a manageble level. Frankly I wouldn't have liked to put together the cabling and controls for a single 40KW unit!

The other advantage is in redundancy, if necessary I could take one motor / controller set out of commission without drastically affecting performance.

 

If you want more detail and PM me an email address, I can send you a pdf of an article we published in the DBA magazine last year.

[Redeye]

I too have been looking at the subject, although really only out of interest at the moment, although it could well turn into a project / conversion...

 

I was (am) following the 10 - 15 kw Dynamotor conversion "above the propshaft type" - i.e the usual diesel propulsion ( possibly with a smaller engine ) but the ability to add the two outputs together or to isolate the prop from the engine output, leaving it driving the generator alone. The article I read seemed to think that 4 kw was enough to maintain average cruising speeds - obviously more peak would be needed for manouevres / stopping or against a river flow if the engine was e.g not available for whatever reason... Battery size would be identified by how much time you wanted to have as "electric drive only".... For night cruising and when in locks, I think it is a brilliant concept....

 

Nick

 

Hi Nock

 

The above the propshaft installation is the one I am working on at the minute. The 20kw motor I am installing is undoubtably oversized as it is capable of producing around 400Nm of Torque at 1000 rpm (Shaft Speed) but I did get a really good deal! The other interesting concept is that I am told by the controller manufacturer that I could use the electric motor to assist the diesel at times when maximum power was needed. This would potentially allow a smaller diesel engine to be fitted with a relatively large prop. For the minute I will be retaining the existing Beta 38 engine with conventional 2:1 reduction box. The motor will initially be mounted above and to one side of the prop shaft to allow easy access to ancilliaries such as stern gland. Once I have got some miles under my belt I am seriously tempted to remove the diesel component of the drive and go all electric. As regards the regeneration using the motor the 3 Phase AC motor and controller doesn't care whether the shaft is spinning forward or backwards the electric drive is left in neutral and allowed to charge the batteries, this effectively removes some of the complexity of the DC system. Oneother interesting feature of the system is that the ammount of current regenerated is not dependant on engine revs to the regen rates can be mapped to engine speed.

 

I will take loads of photos once we have thawed out!

 

Cheers

 

Andrew

[barge sara]

One poster (Justme #12) has already expressed doubts about this assumption. You will be using the fuel to generate electricity but some of the electricity will provide propulsion; without the fuel there could be no propulsion. HMRC is likely to take the view that you are using diesel to provide propulsion and will expect you to pay the full duty on the appropriate proportion.

 

Before you decide to make a 0% domestic declaration, ask HMRC for a view on this - and make sure you get their view in writing.

 

I also have some doubts on this, and it is further complicated by the use of mains elecricity for charging when a shoreline is available.

I would be inclined to go for a low, not zero declaration, based on a log of cruising hours against generator hours and an average power calculation, thus basing the claim on real data.

 

Just out of interest, we did manage to cruise from Goole to Leeds and back without using the generator at all, by using overnight charging facilities along the way. At BW electricity rates an overnight charge representing 5 hours cruising cost us £1.00 at Clarence Dock!

Certainly on the Thames where electric boating is more common, there is a move towards providing charging points.

 

Not sure about asking the question of HMRC - I have a policy of not asking the question if I think I may not like the answer!

[John Orentas]

Every time this topic comes up, and it does very regularly, I always make the point that by far the most technically risk free and lowest cost option would be to acquire a scrap or very second hand stacker truck or milk float along with it's attendant charger..

 

Take it to bits and bolt the appropriate bits onto your boat.. Having watched and even on occasions driven some of the aforementioned vehicles it has always seemed to me to be the ideal way to power a narrowboat..

[barge sara]

Every time this topic comes up, and it does very regularly, I always make the point that by far the most technically risk free and lowest cost option would be to acquire a scrap or very second hand stacker truck or milk float along with it's attendant charger..

 

Take it to bits and bolt the appropriate bits onto your boat.. Having watched and even on occasions driven some of the aforementioned vehicles it has always seemed to me to be the ideal way to power a narrowboat..

 

Very true, we didn't do that literally, beacause we wanted more power than the average stacker, but a lot of our components came from forklift parts dealers. If you want DC kit that will handle high current at a reasonable cost, they're the places to go.

[Justme]

useful life of photo-voltaics mean the technology has some way to go,

 

 

Can you define useful life?

 

Also how long do you think PV panels will last?

[ditchcrawler]

snip

 

Not sure about asking the question of HMRC - I have a policy of not asking the question if I think I may not like the answer!

I think that is the best bet!

[nb Innisfree]

Every time this topic comes up, and it does very regularly, I always make the point that by far the most technically risk free and lowest cost option would be to acquire a scrap or very second hand stacker truck or milk float along with it's attendant charger..

 

Take it to bits and bolt the appropriate bits onto your boat.. Having watched and even on occasions driven some of the aforementioned vehicles it has always seemed to me to be the ideal way to power a narrowboat..

 

Hi

 

Do you know what sort of voltages are used on milk floats and forklifts?

 

Cheers

[Nickhlx]

Hi Nock

 

The above the propshaft installation is the one I am working on at the minute. The 20kw motor I am installing is undoubtably oversized as it is capable of producing around 400Nm of Torque at 1000 rpm (Shaft Speed) but I did get a really good deal! The other interesting concept is that I am told by the controller manufacturer that I could use the electric motor to assist the diesel at times when maximum power was needed. This would potentially allow a smaller diesel engine to be fitted with a relatively large prop. For the minute I will be retaining the existing Beta 38 engine with conventional 2:1 reduction box. The motor will initially be mounted above and to one side of the prop shaft to allow easy access to ancilliaries such as stern gland. Once I have got some miles under my belt I am seriously tempted to remove the diesel component of the drive and go all electric. As regards the regeneration using the motor the 3 Phase AC motor and controller doesn't care whether the shaft is spinning forward or backwards the electric drive is left in neutral and allowed to charge the batteries, this effectively removes some of the complexity of the DC system. Oneother interesting feature of the system is that the ammount of current regenerated is not dependant on engine revs to the regen rates can be mapped to engine speed.

 

I will take loads of photos once we have thawed out!

 

Cheers

 

Andrew

 

 

Hi Andrew...

 

Thanks for the reply - When my present circumstances have passed and I am active again ( few months hopefully - broken legs) I will be re-enthused and able to pursue this a lot faster, collect parts etc and start planning properly... It would be very interesting to see any picture when its possible to take them.

Meantime I am constantly collecting any useful information, ideas, circuits etc for when I am able to start installing the many mods to ours - 62', Beta 43, semi trad - we are currently on the East end of the K and A, so quick and easy to reach from our location, which helps if not living aboard... I see you are up near Sheffield - is that the boat or home or both ?

Nick

Edited January 6, 2010 by Nickhlx

[NB Willawaw]

Andrew,

 

Sorry to snip just a part of your comment to others and haven't had time to read the whole thread, but why do you think you need more than one.

 

I installed a Lynch motor on a 58ft narrowboat and it cruises very briskly on one motor.

 

I first looked at the DC drive systems offered by Lynch, Perm and Agni but was put off by the need to install more than one unit and the added complexity involved.

 

Andrew

[Redeye]

One poster (Justme #12) has already expressed doubts about this assumption. You will be using the fuel to generate electricity but some of the electricity will provide propulsion; without the fuel there could be no propulsion. HMRC is likely to take the view that you are using diesel to provide propulsion and will expect you to pay the full duty on the appropriate proportion.

 

You might have an argument based on the charging regime for electric motor vehicles. Currently, VAT is charged at a low rate on domestic electricity supplies. If you had an electric motor vehicle and recharged the batteries at home there is nothing requiring you to pay VAT at the full rate on that part of your consumption not used for domestic purposes. If you could show that the production of electricity for propulsion of your boat was simply a by-product of the production of electricity for domestic purposes, you might persuade HMRC that your view is correct but I wouldn't bet on it.

 

Before you decide to make a 0% domestic declaration, ask HMRC for a view on this - and make sure you get their view in writing.

 

Paul

 

I have been looking at the position regarding fuel duty and I think Barge Sara has the right idea around making a low declaration along with a detailed cruising log I intend to keep. I have madecontact with HM Revenue and customs and after many phone callsappear to have tracked down their expert. The main problem is that the guiance does not really envisage this scenario. The guidance was driven out of European directive 2003/96/EC covering the taxation of fuels, this was the instrument that effectively removed the tax derrogation. The interesting part is article 15 which seems to suggest that the lower rate of taxation is appropriate for the generation of heat and power irespective of what the power is ultimately used for. I will be interested to see what the have to say although I don't expect to get a straight answer. Interestingly if I generate the power off the boat there is no arguement!

 

Regards

 

Andrew

[johnmck]

Hi Andrew.

 

We looked at fitting an all electric system, but were brought down to earth by forum members. I say this not in any negative way, because drawing on collective wisdom is one of the reasons i joined, and very instructive it has been.

 

I suppose we all have vague ideas that we think will be workable and that was me. It took a reality check from members here to adapt my reasoning, but i believe my ideal is still way off kilter for most. I admire you for "Going for it", and will follow with interest your progress and wish you all the very best in your journey.

 

I am lacking in any technical knowledge, and therefore somewhat naieve.

 

After much prevarication, i thought sod it. Go for a traditional set up, Beta 43 or the like, possibly fully cocooned. This would have a travelpower fitted and would do the job.

 

But...

 

Still like the idea of an amount of silent propulsion. Like you i have explored Hybrid Marine, Thames electric and systems of similar ilk, but they just do not add up somehow!

 

So, just what do i want?

 

1. Single power source, a reliable base engine with provenanance in the muddy ditch enviroment.

2. Ability to power onboard systems.

3. Ability to recharge a reasonable battery bank whilst cruising.

4. Regenerative motor to also enable a limited amount of silent propulsion.

 

So, a modern engine with a hybrid function, that does not rely on bolt on's and belts.

 

Saw a "Steyr" system that ticked all the boxes, but was a blue water product unsuited to the canal enviroment.

 

Then saw Nannidiesel's Hybrid, with the generator/motor inline and fitted between the engine and the gearbox, and thought, thats it for me. Best of both worlds.

 

What are your thoughts?

 

Well used to being flamed.

 

John.