NB Tia May Electric Drive Conversion

[Paul Evans]

Paul

 

I have been looking at the position regarding fuel duty and I think Barge Sara has the right idea around making a low declaration along with a detailed cruising log I intend to keep. I have made contact with HM Revenue and customs and after many phone calls appear to have tracked down their expert. The main problem is that the guidance does not really envisage this scenario. The guidance was driven out of European directive 2003/96/EC covering the taxation of fuels, this was the instrument that effectively removed the tax derogation. The interesting part is article 15 which seems to suggest that the lower rate of taxation is appropriate for the generation of heat and power irrespective of what the power is ultimately used for. I will be interested to see what the have to say although I don't expect to get a straight answer. Interestingly if I generate the power off the boat there is no argument!

 

Regards

 

Andrew

 

I hadn't looked at the directive but I have now (it's here). Article 15(f), effectively, says "...Member States may apply under fiscal control total or partial

exemptions or reductions in the level of taxation to... electricity produced on board a craft". You could use that to argue that you are entitled to the lower rate of VAT on all fuel used to produce electricity, whatever it is used for, and can make a 0% domestic declaration. If you can get HMRC to commit to that view in writing (always much better than a deniable verbal opinion) you would have a piece of paper to wave around in the event of any questions.

 

If you can't get that, a detailed cruising/energy production log would certainly help to support a low domestic declaration.

[Redeye]

Andrew,

 

Sorry to snip just a part of your comment to others and haven't had time to read the whole thread, but why do you think you need more than one.

 

I installed a Lynch motor on a 58ft narrowboat and it cruises very briskly on one motor.

 

Hi

 

Thanks for the comments, I admit to having a tendancy to massively over engineer and err on the side of caution. I wouldn't be surprised if you could waterski behind the boat once I have finished! I suppose my main concern is the regular trip on the tidal trent, as you get swept our of Stockwith Lock into the tide you are quite glad to have a bit of power under your feet, it will be interesting to see once I get it installed

 

Cheers

 

Andrew

[barge sara]

Thanks for the comments, I admit to having a tendancy to massively over engineer and err on the side of caution. I wouldn't be surprised if you could waterski behind the boat once I have finished! I suppose my main concern is the regular trip on the tidal trent, as you get swept our of Stockwith Lock into the tide you are quite glad to have a bit of power under your feet, it will be interesting to see once I get it installed

 

One thing to worry about if you do end up over powered:

Once cavitation starts to happen and the prop loses its 'grip' on the water, the electric motor will acelerate it much faster than an equivalent diesel. The resulting spikes in the motor current can then trip the control gear, which (in our case) then needs a full shutdown to reset. We've only had it happen once and as soon as two controllers tripped the resulting drop in power brought the other two back under control, so no big deal.

 

If you have excess power and only one motor you need to be a bit careful about applying 'full throttle'.

Edited January 7, 2010 by barge sara

[Nickhlx]

One thing to worry about if you do end up over powered:

Once cavitation starts to happen and the prop loses its 'grip' on the water, the electric motor will acelerate it much faster than an equivalent diesel. The resulting spikes in the motor current can then trip the control gear, which (in our case) then needs a full shutdown to reset. We've only had it happen once and as soon as two controllers tripped the resulting drop in power brought the other two back under control, so no big deal.

 

If you have excess power and only one motor you need to be a bit careful about applying 'full throttle'.

 

 

It's an appealing thought to have so much power that you might "wheelie" a canal boat !!! :lol:

 

Nick

[casper ghost]

It's an appealing thought to have so much power that you might "wheelie" a canal boat !!! :lol:

 

I had a 20 foot estuary boat with an inboard 2 stroke petrol stuart turner engine that seemed to wheelie

[Phil Ambrose]

Hi Guys

 

Though I would share my thoughts and experiences on converting my Narrowboat to an electric drive system. There have been a number of boat tests recently with a variety of the available systems and the concept interests me. I have been researching the conversion for around 6 months and have come up with a system and solution that is somewhat different to the DC drives that are currently available. I will attempt to post my thoughts and experiences as I progress with the build, any comments would be appreciated

 

I'm a bit vague on the details but here on the Broads there are grants available for converting to electric power and tolls for electric boats carry a 25% discount, opposite my mooring a hire wherry The White Moth had her auxillary engine replaced with electric drive from a large battry bank topped up by a small diesel constant speed engine, cacooned so nice and quiet for the terrorists.

 

Phil

[deletedaccount]

There are some real cheap (£35) 2v 580ah second hand traction batteries on ebay at the moment. They're normally used for backing up mobile base stations.

 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/FIAMM-2-VOLT-580-AMP...=item335894e80f

 

I can't find any real info about how well these would work as a normal battery bank. As in "are they designed for a few quick sharp discharges, or longer use". It's probably the former I guess, but that's a massive £150 a battery saving.

[John Orentas]

Hi

Do you know what sort of voltages are used on milk floats and forklifts?

Cheers

 

 

 

Hello Innis.

 

I think it is 50 volts.. But the point is it doesn't matter, if you get hold of a complete kit of bits it will by definition be compatible..

 

Such a system will never give a cost advantage, if anyone wants the lowest cost boating they should buy a marinised Japanese diesel with an off the shelf gearbox stuck to the back of it, that is what they have been developed to do over the years, very boring I know but there you are..

[nb Innisfree]

Hello Innis.

 

I think it is 50 volts.. But the point is it doesn't matter, if you get hold of a complete kit of bits it will by definition be compatible..

 

Such a system will never give a cost advantage, if anyone wants the lowest cost boating they should buy a marinised Japanese diesel with an off the shelf gearbox stuck to the back of it, that is what they have been developed to do over the years, very boring I know but there you are..

 

I was thinking along the lines of just fitting a motor and controller to run from existing domestics for occasional use only, not as an economy measure but just for fun. We have 8 domestic batts @ 24v and I have just Googled electric forklifts and see that some are 24v so fitting one from a scrapper shouldn't be too pricey and would be an interesting project.

[Speedwheel]

http://worcesternb.blogspot.com/

 

This is a nice blog. I know nothing about electric drive but have always fancied the idea.

[aread2]

A battery powered boat charged from the mains is actually powered by the steam turbines of the power station, the batteries and motor are simply part of the drive chain. An electric boat charged by an onboard diesel is powered by the diesel, the generator-battery-motor is just a drive train, nothing more or less. A mechanical or hydraulic drive is considerably more efficient in converting fuel to motion. Don't kid yourself that you can declare zero use for propulsion, take away the fuel and the boat will soon stop until the fuel supply is restored. It is an inefficient and therefore enviromentally unsound system with extra complexity and cost.

And bearing in mind that 65% of electricity generated at power stations is lost in transmission before it reaches consumers, fossil fuel generated mains electricity doesn't look very green.

[NB Willawaw]

Go for it, but electric drive isn't quite as easy as many think. You need to consider the gearing and heat dissipation. Also, most controllers are designed for road vehicles, so making a cosmetically appealing go faster stick and directional control is challenging.

 

Very satisfying when you see the end product thought.

 

I was thinking along the lines of just fitting a motor and controller to run from existing domestics for occasional use only, not as an economy measure but just for fun. We have 8 domestic batts @ 24v and I have just Googled electric forklifts and see that some are 24v so fitting one from a scrapper shouldn't be too pricey and would be an interesting project.

[ChrisPy]

....... if anyone wants the lowest cost boating they should buy a marinised Japanese diesel with an off the shelf gearbox stuck to the back of it, that is what they have been developed to do over the years, very boring I know but there you are..

my costings of various configurations of diesel electric drive brought me to the same conclusion.

the best way to achieve relatively economical propulsion is probably to go for the smallest diesel that will push your boat at canal speeds.

i.e. look at 15hp instead of 45hp.

OK as long as you don't want to challenge the tide or a river in flood.

 

for example my 55hp Isuzu in a 25tonne widebeam never goes beyond 1200rpm in normal use. it is developing just 22hp at that speed

[casper ghost]

the best way to achieve relatively economical propulsion is probably to go for the smallest diesel that will push your boat at canal speeds.

 

My Single cylinder Sabb 10hp... 11 hours ger gallon..

[barge sara]

Go for it, but electric drive isn't quite as easy as many think. You need to consider the gearing and heat dissipation.

Also, most controllers are designed for road vehicles, so making a cosmetically appealing go faster stick and directional control is challenging.

Couldn't agree more, it's very difficult to be sure the motor / reduction / prop design is right without some expensive experiments. Fortunately I hit near enough the right ratio on the kevlar belt drives first time and our drive matches the existing prop quite well.

Heat dissapation - true! One of the biggest problems has been controlling the temperature of the generator switchgear and fuses. At 220 amps / 48volts, even a small volt drop generates a lot of heat.

Directional control - no different from any other boat, we have a wheel and hydraulic steering but a tiller would do.

Go faster stick - lots of industrial joysticks on the market, although ones as big as the average Morse lever are a bit pricey. Ours is made mainly for the electric cherry picker market.

 

Very satisfying when you see the end product thought.

Absolutely - and that's the key. You do it because you want to, and don't try and justify it on cost, environmental or any other grounds. We've ended up very satisfied, with a drive system we like and a running cost that would challenge that of a conventional drive in an equivalent sized boat.

I personally couldn't be arsed to fiddle about with a classic engine and completely fail to understand why anyone would put a reconditioned bus engine in a brand new barge.

But if that's what someone else enjoys and it gives them satisfaction - then whatever floats their boat!

[NB Willawaw]

Sorry when I say directional, I mean forward and aft - variable speed and contact closures required.

 

Directional control - no different from any other boat, we have a wheel and hydraulic steering but a tiller would do.

Go faster stick - lots of industrial joysticks on the market, although ones as big as the average Morse lever are a bit pricey. Ours is made mainly for the electric cherry picker market.

[barge sara]

Sorry when I say directional, I mean forward and aft - variable speed and contact closures required.

 

The 4QD motor controllers I used are clever enough to sense the centre of a joystick track and give forwards / backwards from there in exactly the same way as a morse lever.

[deletedaccount]

There are some real cheap (£35) 2v 580ah second hand traction batteries on ebay at the moment. They're normally used for backing up mobile base stations.

 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/FIAMM-2-VOLT-580-AMP...=item335894e80f

 

I can't find any real info about how well these would work as a normal battery bank. As in "are they designed for a few quick sharp discharges, or longer use". It's probably the former I guess, but that's a massive £150 a battery saving.

 

Does anyone have an opinion on these for use as leisure batteries?

[NB Willawaw]

What are you mad ??

Voice an opinion on here on an electrical topic

 

Does anyone have an opinion on these for use as leisure batteries?

[Rick-n-Jo]

Go for it, but electric drive isn't quite as easy as many think. You need to consider the gearing and heat dissipation. Also, most controllers are designed for road vehicles, so making a cosmetically appealing go faster stick and directional control is challenging.

 

Very satisfying when you see the end product thought.

 

I took a long time trying to come up with some suitably chunky "boaty" motor controls. All that's needed is a 10K potentiometer and a switch for reverse, but I wanted it to look and feel right, and be intuitive and operable with cold/gloved hands. Here's what I ended up with,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Speedwheel turns clockwise to increase revs. Forward/reverse lever. Below is a simple LED battery meter to give rough info on load, soc. The big red button on the door (in the shadows) is an emergency stop, battery disconnect, it will open the main contactor and cut all power to the motors and controllers. There is a key operated "ignition" switch for normal power up/down.

 

Inside the box

 

 

 

 

The speedwheel bearing block has ajustable friction for "feel". The for/rev lever is lightly sprung upwards into detents to stop unwanted gear changes. The 4QD controllers allow direction changes without first winding the speed down, you just move the lever and the controllers decellerate (rate ajustable) change direction and ramp up again. Makes manouvering a doddle!

 

Speed controllers are mounted on the steel of the swim, opposite side to the skin tank, with heat transfer paste to aid cooling.

 

 

 

This is essentially the same system as barge saras, but with just two independent motors and controllers (70' narrowboat)

I can post some more pics of the installation if folks are interested, I know when I was designing this I was glad to see what others were doing, and how, if only to convince myself I wasn't completely mad!

 

Rick

[NB Willawaw]

Looks the business.

 

Not a two minute job though, which was the point I was trying to make.

 

The boat I designed had hydraulic steering, a Becker rudder and used a single 48V motor with the Millipak. I used a small engine "engine telegraph" style lever with backlighting for the control.

 

I just need to fit the wireless remote control when the weather improves.

[foxhound_mike]

And bearing in mind that 65% of electricity generated at power stations is lost in transmission before it reaches consumers, fossil fuel generated mains electricity doesn't look very green.

 

sorry to reply off topic but I wondered where this statistic came from??

 

as far as I was aware the UK distribution network operated at an overall efficiency when last audited (10 years ago ish) at about 9%. That means that they deliver 91% of what is produced via generation or imported from France.

 

Its still not brilliant as the optimum is about 6% losses but its slowly getting better.

 

Countries in the third world only lose 20% and their systems are proper string and chewing gum arrangements.

 

to be perfectly honest power generated via centrallised fossil fueled (or nuclear stations) is more eco friendly than anything produced at a local level UNLESS you use all the reject heat like CHP distributed generation schemes do. That includes PV panels which are fairly useless when you consider factors such as embodied energy, transport and distribution, lifecycle and end of life disposal.

 

Sorry if this is a bit of a rant.

 

Why not have a floating sauna as a butty running off yer engine reject heat?? £1 a pop for admission.

 

Mike

[ChrisPy]

as far as I was aware the UK distribution network operated at an overall efficiency when last audited (10 years ago ish) at about 9%. That means that they deliver 91% of what is produced via generation or imported from France.

9% efficiency means exactly the opposite.

[foxhound_mike]

9% efficiency means exactly the opposite.

 

ok then 9% losses - what is known as a typo error

 

apologies for any confusion

 

The point is that charging your batteries from shore power is by far the greenest option

 

nuff said

 

mike

[ChrisPy]

The point is that charging your batteries from shore power is by far the greenest option

depends on the fuel used at the source of the power, doesn't it?

Edited January 9, 2010 by ChrisPy